4th Gen Why all Johto HGSS teams feel the same

[KeiMmx]

If you want to only use Johto Pokemon, there's not much variety you can get before post game, I mean, either they are version exclusive, very late game (some can be found only in Kanto for some reason), Have a ridiculous enounter rate, or they are just straight bad.

I get that Johto is literally right next to Kanto, so there can be pokemon from both regions in either of them, and that GSC are supposed to feel like sequels and not like entirely different things, but that doens't justify why there are Johto Pokemon, that appear only in Kanto, and pokemon with 1% encounter rate are not very fun to get, specially when making a nuzlocke challenge, if you don't wish to use Kanto pokemon in your playtrough, you find it difficult to make a team that doesn't have any of these:

Typhlosion (Fine, because it's your starter)
Ampharos
Sudowoodo
Quagsire (If didn't pick Totodile)
Togekiss
Espeon / Umbreon

And even though HGSS are good remakes and fix not only aspects of GSC, but also fix things that FRLG didn't fix of the originals (such as added music, picking good changes from Crystal, letting you use Hoenn or Sinnoh evolutions or preevolutions of pokemon before getting the Nacional Dex, actually using double battles, etc) the way Johto pokemon were introduced is fundamentally wrong, and I understand it's kinda hard to change it while keeping the original feel, or not breaking the region.

I hope you understand me, so we can have a peacefull discusion, I made this topic because I'm making a run of Pokemon Heartgold, I just beated Morty, and I wanted to know which Johto pokemon are viable for the mid game.

 

[Zed01]

Johto is notorious for having bad distribution of Johto Pokemon in the region but it's not that bad in HGSS compared to GSC since you can get stuff like Larvitar, Misdreavus and Murkrow in the Safari Zone relatively easily. You are also forgetting some strong Pokemon that are available in both HGSS and GSC like Heracross, Miltank and Crobat. Then Xatu and Piloswine/Mamoswine aren't that bad either (especially Mamoswine once you reach move relearner) and even Noctowl can be useful in a playthorugh since it gets Air Slash and Extrasensory in HGSS. If you have access to trading or turn trade evolutions off on an emulator then there are also Pokemon like Steelix, Politoed, Slowking, Kingdra and Scizor that are obtainable early or as soon as you get the evolution item for them. So I don't think all the Johto teams feel the same, at least not on the level of Diamond and Pearl since you actually have a couple of at least decent options to choose from in Johto for almost every type (unless you really want electric type then you are stuck with Ampharos unless you catch Raikou early).

So the choices aren't as limited as you suggested but they aren't plentiful either, but that's also because Johto only introduced 100 new Pokemon and a lot of them are either a boring and weak 1 stage Pokemon like Dunsparce or just a weak evolution lines like Hoppip or Spinarak lines for example. But Johto was always been paired with Kanto because of the direct sequel thing so I don't think that the developers ever intended it to be a stand alone region back when they made the GSC games so Kanto Pokemon are just as much native to Johto as they are to Kanto. But then even Johto Gym leaders don't limit themselves to only Johto Pokemon so neither should we, I had some really fun teams in Johto by using both Kanto and Johto Pokemon.

 

[TwilightBlade]

I agree that most of my GSC playthroughs begin with similar in-game teams. Most of the second generation of Pokémon were locked behind a low encounter rate (Dunsparce, Snubbull, Sneasel, Yanma, etc), behind trade evolutions (Steelix, Scizor, Slowking, Politoed), or within Kanto (Houndour, Murkrow, etc). With the introduction of only 100 new Pokémon, the developers scattered the new Pokémon far and wide to heavily encourage exploration. The two regions were seen as one whole game. The developers wanted players to re-visit Kanto because Gold and Silver were originally planned to be the final entries in the Pokémon series. With 151 out of the 251 available Pokémon being Kanto based, you'd expect the game to slightly favor Kanto Pokémon. Also, why limit yourself to using only second generation Pokémon? You've likely not used Pinsir or Jynx in RBY given their rarity in Kanto, so why not use one in GSC?

Just about all Pokémon are viable (bar Unown) if you raise them enough. Play with your favorites or play with Pokémon you've never used before. The sky is the limit!

Here are some solid Pokémon for mid-game to late-game in HGSS:
1. Red Gyarados from Lake of Rage
2. Heracross / Pinsir / Scizor (Scyther)
3. Lanturn / Lapras / Vaporeon / Starmie / Poliwrath / Slowbro
4. Girafarig / Hypno / Alakazam (Kadabra)
5. Magmar / Arcanine
6. Miltank / Tauros / Clefable
7. Sandslash / Golem (Graveler)
8. Electrode / Jolteon / Magneton
9. Bellossom (Vileplume) / Victreebel / Exeggutor
10. Skarmory / Steelix (Onix)

 

[Vagabond+]

I think it's important to note exactly *why* the pokémon initially listed as team staples are the way they are. Those pokémon are practically handed to you. Half of them are gifts (Starter, Egg, Bill) and one is a mandatory encounter (Sudowoodo). The other two (Mareep & Wooper) are early game with a high encounter rate. But the problem extends to lots of other Johto pokémon either being weak, having bad movesets, or requiring a trade. This can make it feel more like the roster is flat out worse than other gens, but as said above there are a solid amount of other options if you take time to look.

TwilightBlade's list is already pretty comprehensive, but specifying the Johto options specifically:

Normal: Togekiss, Granbull, Girafarig, Miltank, Ursaring
Fire: Typhlosion
Water: Feraligatr, Quagsire, Azumarill, Lanturn, Mantine (Politoed, Slowking, Kingdra)
Grass: Meganium, Jumpluff, Bellossom
Bug: Forretress, Yanmega, Heracross
Poison: Crobat
Electric: Ampharos, Lanturn
Psychic: Girafarig, Xatu, Espeon (Slowking)
Fighting: Heracross, Hitmontop
Flying: Crobat, Togekiss, Jumpluff, Yanmega, Xatu, Mantine, Skarmory
Ground: Quagsire, Mamoswine, Donphan (Steelix)
Rock: Sudowoodo
Steel: Forretress, Skarmory (Steelix, Scizor)
Dark: Umbreon
Ghost:
Ice: Mamoswine
Dragon: (Kingdra)

This mostly paints the rarity of Fire, Poison, Rock, Ghost, Dark, Ice and Dragon (and Fighting since both are kinda rare). I think it's less that there's a lack of good johto pokemon, but a lack of *type variety* in the good options. And most trainers don't want overlap so this creates an issue. I haven't used the safari zone much so I can't speak to the availability of Houndour, Misdreavus and Larvitar in practice.