Will Ash win the Kalos League?

[weedle_mchairybug]

Not quite sure what tournaments you watched, but Ash finished top 16 in Kanto, top 8 in Johto, Top 8 in Hoenn, Top 4 in Sinnoh, and Top 8 in Unova. So Ash did the exact same as Johto and Hoenn.

There isn't a Third or Fourth place in these style of tournaments so the only places that count are First and Second (runner up). Everyone that finished top 4 is the same ranking (so the other two are just top 4), and all four that finished top 8 all have the same Ranking. Ash had top 8 three times now so he placed three times in the same rank. He didn't do any better or worse among these three instances.



Ash for Ash's placement. I don't see him winning this one. Its very early to give a definite answer, but he's not destined to win anything other than minor tournaments anyway. Maybe we'll have another view further down the line but I can see him Top 8ing again to keep the same flow going.

He'll lose to some nonamed character that appears last minute in the Anime as per the norm.

Odd. When I looked up the Unova League on Bulbapedia under its Anime section of its article, it said he made Top 16, not Top 8, meaning it was Kanto's ranking, not Johto/Hoenn's ranking (and BTW, the fact that he increased from Top 8 in Hoenn to Top 4 in Sinnoh is an actual sign of improvement). Either way, he definitely did poorly as he decreased in rank in Unova. At least with Hoenn, while he didn't increase in rank, he at least retained his rank instead of falling.

The only way to objectively observe improvement is if he actually increased a rank, especially if we are to buy that becoming a Pokémon Master involved winning a league. So even if he doesn't actually win a league, he needs to at least increase in rank to indicate whether he actually was increasing in skill and experience.

And again, he'd still need to face off against the Elite 4 and the regional champion before he can officially become a Pokémon Master if we go by the definition of what a Pokémon Master is. That was made very clear in DP, and they made a pretty big deal about it, so yes, even if he DOES win a league, he'd still need to fight against the Elite 4, not to mention the champion, and win against them, so no, it still requires more than just making first place at a league.

I agree with this, if Ash does win then there would be no reason for him to continue. I am hoping he can get pretty far like he did in Sinnoh, but lose to someone who isn't doing it in a cheap way a la Tobias.

Why are people automatically assuming that Ash winning the finals in the Pokémon League would automatically mean the series as over. Have you forgotten that DP made clear that even if he does win the finals, he still needs to fight against the Elite 4 and the regional Champ?

EDIT: Okay, my mistake, it was Top 8, not Top 16. Despite that, however, it was still bad because he decreased a rank, which means he did horribly. If the point of rankings is to show how you've increased throughout your journey like in some sports movies (particularly boxing movies, whole underdog thing) that means Ash did a horrible job in Unova, period, if he sunk.

 

[Liberal Army]

Technically, the director you're referring to has stopped being the director after Battle Frontier (remember, the Pokebeach interview you're referring to took place during the airing of the first "season" so to speak of DP [yes, I know animes don't have seasons in Japan, but humor me], and they referred to him as being the director up to BF, meaning he wasn't director anymore). And with that said, what's to say that they won't just have Ash lose against Gary again like they had when he won the Orange Islands League and the Battle Frontier (and the latter's particularly egregrious as the Brains were mentioned to be at least as strong as if not stronger than the Elite 4).

Either way, Ash definitely needs to at least get back to Top 4 after the disaster that was Unova. Even Hoenn's rank was better than Unova as at least Ash didn't decrease several ranks.

Oh I didn't know he quit after the Hoenn saga. Thanks for correcting me there.

The Orange League and Battle Frontier aren't real leagues, but rather side leagues. (imo)
And of course, Ash can continue his journey IF he ever becomes the winner.

Oh, and BTW, the Anime made clear that even if Ash does actually win a league, he'd still need to face the Elite 4, so don't get your hopes up.

I stopped watching the Anime during the Iron Island arc, so I didn't know this was said.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

Odd. When I looked up the Unova League on Bulbapedia under its Anime section of its article, it said he made Top 16, not Top 8, meaning it was Kanto's ranking, not Johto/Hoenn's ranking (and BTW, the fact that he increased from Top 8 in Hoenn to Top 4 in Sinnoh is an actual sign of improvement). Either way, he definitely did poorly as he decreased in rank in Unova. At least with Hoenn, while he didn't increase in rank, he at least retained his rank instead of falling.

The only way to objectively observe improvement is if he actually increased a rank, especially if we are to buy that becoming a Pokémon Master involved winning a league. So even if he doesn't actually win a league, he needs to at least increase in rank to indicate whether he actually was increasing in skill and experience.

And again, he'd still need to face off against the Elite 4 and the regional champion before he can officially become a Pokémon Master if we go by the definition of what a Pokémon Master is. That was made very clear in DP, and they made a pretty big deal about it, so yes, even if he DOES win a league, he'd still need to fight against the Elite 4, not to mention the champion, and win against them, so no, it still requires more than just making first place at a league.



Why are people automatically assuming that Ash winning the finals in the Pokémon League would automatically mean the series as over. Have you forgotten that DP made clear that even if he does win the finals, he still needs to fight against the Elite 4 and the regional Champ?

EDIT: Okay, my mistake, it was Top 8, not Top 16. Despite that, however, it was still bad because he decreased a rank, which means he did horribly. If the point of rankings is to show how you've increased throughout your journey like in some sports movies (particularly boxing movies, whole underdog thing) that means Ash did a horrible job in Unova, period, if he sunk.

Actually no, Ranking cross regional tournaments doesn't dictate skill gain or loss. There are too many wide factors to add in, such as skill of opponents, match up settings (cause he could be put up against someone that can easily floor him just by what Pokemon they had even if their own personal skills were as good as mud.), number of Pokemon on hand, Pokemon species on hand, rules of the tournament...many different other minor details that can effect how you'd perform.

Raise and fall within ranks that aren't part of the same league can't be measured as an accurate skill level. I can travel around the states and take part in various Pokemon tournaments. Using the same team or even mixed teams and end up with the same results as Ash. My placement won't clearly show my personal skill as you wouldn't know who I went up against. I could enter into a tournament that is full of previous world championship winners and get top 16, or be put in a tournament with people who started playing Pokemon two weeks prior and get top 4. Which would indicate more skill? My easy win to the top or my hard fought loss to hit the bottom?

Rank alone isn't any form of indication of skill.

I would argue that Ash's most skillful wins were in Unova where he beat the all time favorite early in but still lost to a no brain challenger with incredible luck. Shooti was definately one of Ash's harder Rivals possibly second to Paul and Gary.

Ash really only had two difficult fights in Sinnoh, Paul and Tobias.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Actually no, Ranking cross regional tournaments doesn't dictate skill gain or loss. There are too many wide factors to add in, such as skill of opponents, match up settings (cause he could be put up against someone that can easily floor him just by what Pokemon they had even if their own personal skills were as good as mud.), number of Pokemon on hand, Pokemon species on hand, rules of the tournament...many different other minor details that can effect how you'd perform.

Raise and fall within ranks that aren't part of the same league can't be measured as an accurate skill level. I can travel around the states and take part in various Pokemon tournaments. Using the same team or even mixed teams and end up with the same results as Ash. My placement won't clearly show my personal skill as you wouldn't know who I went up against. I could enter into a tournament that is full of previous world championship winners and get top 16, or be put in a tournament with people who started playing Pokemon two weeks prior and get top 4. Which would indicate more skill? My easy win to the top or my hard fought loss to hit the bottom?

Rank alone isn't any form of indication of skill.

I would argue that Ash's most skillful wins were in Unova where he beat the all time favorite early in but still lost to a no brain challenger with incredible luck. Shooti was definately one of Ash's harder Rivals possibly second to Paul and Gary.

Ash really only had two difficult fights in Sinnoh, Paul and Tobias.

Except in underdog competition series such as this one, rankings actually are indicative of whether someone's skill is improving. Take the Rocky series, for example. It didn't take until Rocky V for him to actually win the boxing championship, yet he gradually got better up to that point.

It might not actually be the case in real life, but this isn't real life. In underdog series such as this one, an increase in rank is supposed to be implied by the writers to be an increase in experience and skill.

EDIT: Okay, a bit of an error, it was Rocky IV where he won the titleship, not Rocky V. Still...

 

[Xander Olivieri]

Except in underdog competition series such as this one, rankings actually are indicative of whether someone's skill is improving. Take the Rocky series, for example. It didn't take until Rocky V for him to actually win the boxing championship, yet he gradually got better up to that point.

It might not actually be the case in real life, but this isn't real life. In underdog series such as this one, an increase in rank is supposed to be implied by the writers to be an increase in experience and skill.

EDIT: Okay, a bit of an error, it was Rocky IV where he won the titleship, not Rocky V. Still...

These aren't underdog competitions, and the series isn't an underdog competition series. Ash doesn't have insurmountable odds stacked against him. Pokemon has nothing in common with the Rocky series in the way the tournaments are played out nor are the scenarios anywhere close to being even remotely similar.

The only thing that the ranks can tell you is that Ash could be a fairly skilled individual. It cannot be used to say whether or not he gained or lost any skill. The ranking system that they use is not capable of telling this sort of information.

You cannot judge whether or not Ash has improved or not based on what rank he has made in different regions.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

These aren't underdog competitions, and the series isn't an underdog competition series. Ash doesn't have insurmountable odds stacked against him. Pokemon has nothing in common with the Rocky series in the way the tournaments are played out nor are the scenarios anywhere close to being even remotely similar.

The only thing that the ranks can tell you is that Ash could be a fairly skilled individual. It cannot be used to say whether or not he gained or lost any skill. The ranking system that they use is not capable of telling this sort of information.

You cannot judge whether or not Ash has improved or not based on what rank he has made in different regions.

Yes, actually, Ash DID have insurmountable odds against him. In Kanto, he was pretty much a fish out of water, and he has to deal with several trainers who are very likely to be more experienced than him (Gym Leaders). Hoenn and Sinnoh, heck, Unova and Kalos as well, with the sole exception of Pikachu, was composed entirely of rookies for his team (Ash himself was supposed to be experienced), who definitely were at a huge disadvantage from the experienced characters (rivals, gym leaders, you name it). And with the possible exception of Richie and Gary in Kanto, pretty much a lot of the people he faced in Kanto were very likely to have been veterans. Even Johto, pretty much the one region where he actually didn't start off fresh, still had him trying to have rookies face off against more experienced opponents. When you've got trainers who are a lot more experienced than you fighting against you, or at the very least their team is far more experienced than yours, and you must face them if you are to advance, that is definitely insurmountable odds right then and there.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

Yes, actually, Ash DID have insurmountable odds against him. In Kanto, he was pretty much a fish out of water, and he has to deal with several trainers who are very likely to be more experienced than him (Gym Leaders). Hoenn and Sinnoh, heck, Unova and Kalos as well, with the sole exception of Pikachu, was composed entirely of rookies for his team (Ash himself was supposed to be experienced), who definitely were at a huge disadvantage from the experienced characters (rivals, gym leaders, you name it). And with the possible exception of Richie and Gary in Kanto, pretty much a lot of the people he faced in Kanto were very likely to have been veterans. Even Johto, pretty much the one region where he actually didn't start off fresh, still had him trying to have rookies face off against more experienced opponents. When you've got trainers who are a lot more experienced than you fighting against you, or at the very least their team is far more experienced than yours, and you must face them if you are to advance, that is definitely insurmountable odds right then and there.

In Kanto, everyone Ash met with at the point that he entered the tournament were all on equal footing. They were all just as new. Many even claimed so. Those were not insurmountable odds. Everyone else he competed with shown in the anime were fish out of water at the tournament.

The journey as a whole wasn't an underdog story. Gym Leaders are there to test trainers and help them become better. They are role models and teachers for newer, younger trainers. This is not an insurmountable odd. It it were an insurmountable odd then there'd be next to no chance of him winning other than him being the main character so he has to win. Pokemon has never been an underdog story and Ash is the furthest thing from an underdog.

After Kanto was the first time we saw more veterans appear and as the time would go on you got more and more veterans added in. Ash has never been the underdog in any of the main Pokemon anime shows.

 

[Lizardo]

Actually no, Ranking cross regional tournaments doesn't dictate skill gain or loss. There are too many wide factors to add in, such as skill of opponents, match up settings (cause he could be put up against someone that can easily floor him just by what Pokemon they had even if their own personal skills were as good as mud.), number of Pokemon on hand, Pokemon species on hand, rules of the tournament...many different other minor details that can effect how you'd perform.

I would agree with this if we were talking about an actual sporting event and not a television show where opponents, rankings, etc. aren't chosen at random but are consciously written in for a reason. Satoshi making it to the semifinals of the Sinnoh League was notable enough that two characters, Takuto and Takeshi, mentioned it and Takeshi had made a point of mentioning how it was the first time Satoshi got there. So at least as far as the Sinnoh League goes, Satoshi was meant to be seen as someone who'd become stronger, and his placing in the Top 4 for the first time was a sign of that. I don't think Satoshi going back a round in the Isshu League was supposed to demonstrate a lack of progress either, since nobody in the show ever suggested that, and that's one of the things that makes it so frustrating.

 

[Xander Olivieri]

I would agree with this if we were talking about an actual sporting event and not a television show where opponents, rankings, etc. aren't chosen at random but are consciously written in for a reason. Satoshi making it to the semifinals of the Sinnoh League was notable enough that two characters, Takuto and Takeshi, mentioned it and Takeshi had made a point of mentioning how it was the first time Satoshi got there. So at least as far as the Sinnoh League goes, Satoshi was meant to be seen as someone who'd become stronger, and his placing in the Top 4 for the first time was a sign of that. I don't think Satoshi going back a round in the Isshu League was supposed to demonstrate a lack of progress either, since nobody in the show ever suggested that, and that's one of the things that makes it so frustrating.

Which is still the point I'm trying to push. His ranking doesn't really mean much. Yes you can say it meant he improved, but through Sinnoh its arguable that he was more childish than he was in Hoenn and less impressive/skillful.

As I said, jumping from varying regions doesn't really mean much. The people in Sinnoh were pretty easy for Ash to beat with exception to Paul and the Darkrai guy. He may have made it further but it didn't seem as if he worked as hard for it. As you said its scripted so he was pretty much just given the ranking even with a story to go around it. It doesn't really prove his overall skill is falling or raising though.

 

[Lizardo]

As you said its scripted so he was pretty much just given the ranking even with a story to go around it. It doesn't really prove his overall skill is falling or raising though.

Ignoring for a moment that most of this is very debatable - the impression Sinnoh left on me was quite the opposite. Its Gym Leaders and rivals far surpassed most of what AG had to offer, Satoshi there certainly didn't strike me as being especially skillful or mature at all, and Satoshi actually had to work for the majority of his DP successes and was rarely just "given" anything (AG, on the other hand...) - what I'm actually saying is that, as far as the Sinnoh League goes, Satoshi's rank there was meant to show that his skill had grown.

I can't think of any reason for Takeshi to mention that this was the first time Satoshi had gotten to the semifinals of a League if the show hadn't been trying to push the idea that he had moved closer to finally winning one. I can understand where you're coming from, and if Satoshi and co. were real people and not animated characters on a children's television series I might agree with you. But I think it was pretty clear that as far as the show was concerned, at that point at least, Satoshi had grown stronger and his ranking was meant to be the proof of that.

 

[nathan488]

No as I don't usually watch the anime as much but as the usual trend goes, he'll get knocked out either against Diantha or one of the four (I doubt that as it's a choice not a hierarchical structure) and then learn a valuable lesson in life and continue training his pokemon etc haha

I wish they would make pokemon anime like Pokemon Origins! I LOVED that 4 parter

 

[Cons]

My speculation is that ash will win the kalos league then set of to an adventure like the battle frontier where he will evolve his pokemon with a lot of potential like gible etc... Then form a good team and challenge the champion league or the elite four of every region

 

[Wobbu]

Hi Cons! Unfortunately this thread died a couple weeks ago, which means that nobody posted in it for over a month. However, you can recreate this thread if you desire~