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[Discussion] Ye Olde Debate

DarkDoom3000

Super Pokemon Eevee Edition
  • 1,715
    Posts
    19
    Years
    Cameos?
    Hmm... As long as they aren't all in your face. I like nice refrences, that people wouldn't notice unless they know the refrence. I use decent amount of MGS sound effects, but probably wouldn't actually put Snake in the game, if I did it would be some side mission or something. Intergrating them into the plot? Could work if it's subtle.

    Devs inside the game
    Falls into the same space as cameos. If done subtly, then it's ok.


    Grass in towns

    Not a fan of it, mainly because towns seem like havens, away from the evil pokemonsters. It just seems weird that wild pokemon would gather around where people live.
     

    Maruno

    Lead Dev of Pokémon Essentials
  • 5,286
    Posts
    16
    Years
    • Seen May 3, 2024
    Cameos
    I'm not a fan of the cameos the official games have, mainly because they're too high-profile. The Champion from another region just happens to be in a land far away, and just happens to bump into the player, is too contrived and doesn't do anything a new character couldn't do instead.

    On the other hand, I like shout-outs, like the ex-Team Rocket guy in Unova. He's not important, he's not plot-relevant, but it's kinda nice to make the reference.

    Author avatars
    As long as they aren't aware they're in a game, and as long as they're not Mary Sues, they're just like any other NPC. However, I would imagine that most of the time these rules aren't applied.

    The same goes regardless of whether the author is a bit character or the Big Bad/etc. No Mary Sue-ing. I think if you can play through the game with no knowledge of the author, and not notice their avatar, then that's great. Author avatars are a kind of shout-out, which as I've said are good if they're subtle.

    Urban encounters
    The Pokédex has shown that some Pokémon live in towns/cities. In Gen 1 you could fish for Pokémon in every town with water. It makes sense for some Pokémon to be in towns.

    However, tall grass is a different matter. Most of the time it wouldn't make sense for tall grass to be in towns (and especially cities). Places where it would be acceptable are park areas and Safari Zones, neither of which would really be counted as part of the town itself.

    On the whole, wild Pokémon shouldn't really appear in towns. They can be right next to towns, though. And if they do appear in towns, the player should be able to stay away from them (e.g. you have to actively surf/fish to find the Gen 1 Pokémon).
     
  • 10,674
    Posts
    15
    Years
    • Seen May 19, 2024
    I think I'll answer the questions you raised Daedalus, which was perfectly cool by the way.

    Do you think cameos in a fan game are a good idea? Whether it be a minor tongue in cheek reference, or giving said character an important role in the plot?

    I believe that it really depends on how individual the game is supposed to be. If the game creator is intending on doing a brand new game, then I think that an important role of an older character may be somewhat of a clash in intention and result. My reference to this would be any of the official games, they tend to have cameo appearances, but they do not usually allow the cameo to have too much of a bearing on the game. Cynthia in Pokémon Black and White is an example. You may battle her and she makes references to the Sinnoh region and battles you. The game developers who are trying to make an individual and new game, and then use the heroes from the official games, it would personally turn me off. I prefer the originality of a whole new experience.

    However, if someone were to make a game with the intention to use characters as their main ones, I would rather see that. I feel that if a person is using a bunch of cameo's, they're just facilitating to the lack of original characters they don't feel like or don't have the ability to create. I support small roles in cameos mostly, as opposed to seeing ones from older games have a large role in fan games.

    What's your opinion on the authors of the game putting themselves into the same? If it's a minor thing such as what Game Freak does, or making themselves the professor or villainous team leader, what are your thoughts?

    I think it's also acceptable if it's a small cameo appearance. Again with reference to Black and White, we see the gamefreak building, like we do in a lot of the games in fact. I think a subtle inclusion of the person such as this is fine. Where as if the game creator purposefully puts themselves as one of the main characters, it may come across as a little pretentious. The thing is, we usually see a little favouritism when a person puts themselves into a game, such as making themselves a champion or something along those lines.

    Again it also takes away some of the originality. Although I think it's pretty sweet when people put their friends into the game as trainers and small cameos. Other than that though I rather seeing completely original characters, this is something that really entices me in a game.

    Tall grass in towns/cities. What's your opinion on it, and can it be justified properly?

    Oh it most certainly can. If there is a decent reason for it there's no reason why it shouldn't be. I think that it would be suitable in professor's retreat for the starter Pokémon or something along those lines. But, random grass as a way to add decoration to the town is kind of off putting and it's not a liable method of mapping in my view.

    But to speak about what I think is most important in fan games. I think that a storyline is simply the foundation, I think that this is where all fan games should begin; creating a good storyline. A decent storyline is a way to draw the player in and wish to play the game. With a lot of the official games, the storyline is quite simplistic, but it is the antagonists in which have the depth and interesting qualities and background. I think they are often the backbone of a good storyline, and as years have gone by, they have become more complex an diverse. Which is why I think that any fan game which is including a group of antagonists or even just one or two, should always work hard on their background and how they relate to the history of the game, the region or area. I feel that if a player is going to be going through a region that antagonists smother, and who will be facing them quite a lot, they will wish to facing interesting characters with intentions that make sense in the line of the story. So from there, I think that the story is probably the most important part of the foundation, writing is an important part of a game.

    From there, graphics are always going to be an important part of a game. I think that graphics are what a player would look at first. Tile choice and creation is an important aspect of this, the style of the tiles would always look best if it was consistent, same goes for what proceeds the tiles, this would be the sprites and interfaces. Consistency in graphics is something a lot of game developers work hard on ensuring it. So I think working hard on aesthetics goes a long way.

    Something I always enjoy when playing games, is good events and lots of them. Cutscenes and simple events alike, all play a small part in drawing the player in. Though it is good to have a lot to do in a game without been drawn into the main plot through predetermined events, I think it supports a game if it can develop a storyline with a lot of good events. This is certainly something I don't often see enough of in games, good events and scripts.

    Overall however, consistency is a very important aspect of making a fan game, and I think the best developers work hard on doing this. Whether it be the aesthetic quality of the graphics, or the depth of a storyline, I think that a developer should work hard on making their game consistent in all areas, ensuring that style and quality matches. I think any style can work, so long as it's executed correctly. So it is hard for me to pin down the most important part of a fan game, every gamer looks for something different, which is why I think emphasis is best kept on consistency and not on one particular aspect of a game.
     
  • 106
    Posts
    13
    Years
    • Seen Nov 3, 2016
    Personally, I believe that the most important part of a fangame not only depends on the kind of audience the creator is aiming the game at, but the actual game itself. If the game contains 600 fakemon and has only one new minigame, I would rather see 600 good sprites than a well scripted minigame, so in this case I would say graphics (sprites) were more important. However, if a game contain 20 new minigames, and two new fakemon, I would prefer to see the minigames well scripted rather than the fakemon well sprited, so in this case I think scripting would be more important.

    As for your questions, Daedalus:

    Do you think cameos in a fan game are a good idea? Whether it be a minor tongue in cheek reference, or giving said character an important role in the plot?

    Yet again, I believe that it depends on the game. I have no problem with cameo appearances in fangames, but there is such a thing as taking it too far. Small cameo appearances such as the Rocket grunt in Iccirus City are perfectly OK, as he actually has a reason to be in the Unova region. Things like having Cynthia, Steven and Red appearing out of nowhere to help the player defeat the evil team I think are pretty bad. Overall, I think that all cameos, no matter how large or small, are alright, so long as they are justifiable. However, things like finding Jasmine in the middle of a volcano claiming that her Amphy got lost are pretty weird, especially if the game is set in a region where Jasmine plays no role.

    What's your opinion on the authors of the game putting themselves into the same? If it's a minor thing such as what Game Freak does, or making themselves the professor or villainous team leader, what are your thoughts?

    I think its alright having the authors of the game in the game itself, after all they did make it, they can put whatever they want in it. I'm not too fond of major roles, but I'm fine with minor ones. It's quite nice when authors put people such as their friends and family into the game, but when they put themselves into the game, they usually make themselves the champion or something, which lacks the originality of unique character design.

    Tall grass in towns/cities. What's your opinion on it, and can it be justified properly?

    I'm not a big fan of tall grass within cities. Unlike surfing or fishing, the player doesn't have to directly interact with the grass in order for a wild battle to occur, which can be a problem. For example, if the player was cycling to a Pokécenter, and then their finger slipped and they went into a patch of tall grass. However, if there is a valid reason for the grass to be there (for example, if it is in a park or nature reserve), I feel it is acceptable. Even if the creator of a game feels that it makes the map look more interesting and alive, when the game is actually played it just gets in the way.

    Overall, I think that graphics and story are the most important aspect of a fangame. When I say this I do not mean that everything in the game must be in Black and White style! All I mean is that the graphics have to match and flow smoothly. Take a look at Super Pokémon Eevee Edition, and you'll see what I mean.

    The storyline I think is equally as important as the graphics. Without a decent story, people aren't going to play the game, its as simple as that. A good story is one that has an interesting setting (a good region with good cities); has creative characters (who actually develop over the course of the game); is a twist on the generic Pokémon plot (get starter from professor yadda yadda, beat gyms) and isn't too linear (I hate games that aren't explorable).

    That, for me, is what makes a good fangame.
     
  • 48
    Posts
    12
    Years
    Depends on the game.
    I'd Say Story and Gameplay honestly.
    I'll pick up old games and play them just because they're more engaging overall then say final fantasy 13. Graphics never outweighs a good battle system/ story combo IMO
     
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