3rd Gen What went wrong with FRLG?

Unown Seer · Feb 13, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
You don't get it, the previous timelines aren't GF's concern anymore. Yes, they still exist, but they're old, closed timelines. Just like Paramount isn't rushing to make a new spinoff of Star Trek: TNG, GF isn't rushing to make a new sequel to GSC or HGSS. It's a dead timeline that they've moved on from.

No, you don't get it. We have no evidence that the distinction between the timelines is even important when it comes to Kanto. It is only an issue if Game Freak choose to make it so.

Well, you can't so easily do that with a sequel, because both GSC and HGSS already established that the two regions were closely connected and shared a League.

Things can change over time, you know. Even real-life countries can change their relationships.

The older games went down in a way that prevents all of these from happening, so a sequel wouldn't fix these problems at all without completely violating previously established continuity.

Wrong. Game Freak can choose to flesh out whomever they like via sequels. Even Leaf and Kris may exist even though we never saw them in HGSS, which was actually implied for Kris by way of Elm's third starter being given to an unseen trainer.

Also, it's fairly naive to believe that everything you didn't like about the previous games would be fixed in a new continuity. Learn to accept that Game Freak's job isn't to cater to your specific desires.

BettyNewbie · Feb 13, 2015

Unown Lord said:
No, you don't get it. We have no evidence that the distinction between the timelines is even important when it comes to Kanto. It is only an issue if Game Freak choose to make it so.

Well, clearly it IS important to GF if they went through the trouble of establishing a brand new timeline in ORAS.

Unown Lord said:
Game Freak can choose to flesh out whomever they like via sequels.

GSC and HGSS effectively finished Team Rocket's story, however unsatisfactorily it was handled for many people. There just isn't anything further that could be done with them without hitting the reset button and telling their story better.

Unown Lord said:
Even Leaf and Kris may exist even though we never saw them in HGSS.

No, they can't. Kris' role was effectively replaced by Lyra, and Green/Leaf was never established to exist separately from Red.

Unown Lord said:
Learn to accept that Game Freak's job isn't to cater to your specific desires.

Says the person who expects GF to stop making remakes altogether and try to fix things THEY don't like in sequels. :rolleyes2:

CoffeeDrink · Feb 13, 2015

I think this thread turned into a 'No, You' bout. . . I'll be in my ready room drinking coffee when we're all ready to talk sense again.

And yes, a larger pool of moves and abilities (Levitate much?) really blew a lot of the potential difficulty out the airlock. Rock and Ice types were destroyed with Steel Wing and Dark ruled the Psychic domain and there wasn't so much that could be done about it.

Unown Seer · Feb 13, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
Well, clearly it IS important to GF if they went through the trouble of establishing a brand new timeline in ORAS.

I wasn't aware that a single line of text was considered much effort these days. Not to mention that Zinnia only mentioned the existence of a different Hoenn.

GSC and HGSS effectively finished Team Rocket's story, however unsatisfactorily it was handled for many people. There just isn't anything further that could be done with them without hitting the reset button and telling their story better.

Good. I don't want to see the organization again, but that doesn't mean that Giovanni and possibly the admins can't be given closure in another way.

Kris' role was effectively replaced by Lyra, and Green/Leaf was never established to exist separately from Red.

Just because they were never established to exist separately from their male counterparts doesn't mean that they couldn't possibly still exist behind the scenes and become important later. But I am not going to dwell on this, because it's silly to pretend that any character should determine Game Freak's projects. Sadly, we may never see Kris or Leaf again regardless of what Game Freak choose to do with their regions.

Says the person who expects GF to stop making remakes altogether and try to fix things THEY don't like in sequels. :rolleyes2:

When did I say any of these things? I expect DP to be remade around 5 five years from now, but that doesn't mean that there should be even more remakes before then. And I don't want sequels to be about "fixing" things so much as doing new (not semi-new) things with familiar characters. Based on my experience with B2W2, I'm fully aware that sequels don't necessarily have to be amazing, but at least they're more innovative than remakes.

mew_nani · Feb 13, 2015

CoffeeDrink said:
I think this thread turned into a 'No, You' bout. . . I'll be in my ready room drinking coffee when we're all ready to talk sense again.

And yes, a larger pool of moves and abilities (Levitate much?) really blew a lot of the potential difficulty out the airlock. Rock and Ice types were destroyed with Steel Wing and Dark ruled the Psychic domain and there wasn't so much that could be done about it.

Yeah... In general there wasn't too much difficulty unless you had no clue what you were doing. One thing I DID like though, which was carried over from R/B, was the ability to challenge the gyms non-sequentially. The only ones you needed to do in order were the first, second, and eighth gyms, and the others you could do in whatever order you liked. I wish more games had that; Pokemon tends to be really linear, making you defeat the gyms in order, and the first gen was the only ones where this didn't apply. Can we have a Pokemon game where this is once again possible?

BettyNewbie · Feb 13, 2015

Unown Lord said:
Not to mention that Zinnia only mentioned the existence of a different Hoenn.

And, I wasn't aware that Hoenn existed in a vacuum.

Unown Lord said:
Good. I don't want to see the organization again, but that doesn't mean that Giovanni and possibly the admins can't be given closure in another way.

Yeah, screw all of those other fans who like Team Rocket, right? :rolleyes2:

What would be the point of bringing back Giovanni and the Admins if there's no Team Rocket? Their characters would be completely irrelevant to the main story, and their inclusion in the games would only feel forced and extraneous.

Unown Lord said:
Just because they were never established to exist separately from their male counterparts doesn't mean that they couldn't possibly still exist behind the scenes and become important later.

No, it does. If the guys exist, then they don't exist, and vice-versa, and since GF decided to side with the guys, then they don't exist, period.

Lyra (love her or hate her), on the other hand, was established to exist separately from her male counterpart, so she's his equal in the same way as the later region female PCs are to their male counterparts. (Albeit, an equality that came at the expense of Kris' character.)

Unown Lord said:
Sadly, we may never see Kris or Leaf again regardless of what Game Freak choose to do with their regions.

Which is absolutely tragic, IMO. What kind of message does that send to girls playing the games? -_-

Unown Lord said:
When did I say any of these things?

In your own words (bolded by me):

After I had played the games I wanted Game Freak to develop a 10th anniversary title focusing on Mew and Mewtwo, which is what FRLG were truly missing. But that didn't happen, nor has anything in that vein happened ever since. That doesn't make me want another set of remakes, though.

HGSS disappointed me a lot more than FRLG did. Granted, I had much higher expectations, but HGSS made me realize that remakes are not what I'm looking for. They don't allow for a notable story expansion, and the changes aren't always for the better.

Unown Lord said:
I expect DP to be remade around 5 five years from now,

Gen 1 will likely be the next remake, like it or not. FRLG are the next oldest games after RSE, and Gen 1 is the only Gen that can't be played on current hardware (all of Gens 4 and later are compatible, and Gens 2 and 3 are via their respective remakes). If you don't want another remake, then nobody's forcing you to buy the games.

Unown Lord said:
And I don't want sequels to be about "fixing" things so much as doing new (not semi-new) things with familiar characters.

The familiar characters that return, that is. (Although, B2W2 were, at least, much better about this than GSC/HGSS were.)

I'd rather fix the older games' flaws before making any new continuations. There are many continuity holes between Gens 1 and 2, and certain characters were completely screwed over by the narrative. Plus, there's some gameplay-related elements I'd like to improve upon, as well. Then, after that, we can start talking about sequels.

Unown Seer · Feb 13, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
And, I wasn't aware that Hoenn existed in a vacuum.

It doesn't exist in a vaccum, but just because Mega Evolution altered its history doesn't mean that something similar happened in Kanto. Zinnia only referred to the history of Mega Evolution in Hoenn, and it was made abundantly clear that it wasn't something common.

What would be the point of bringing back Giovanni and the Admins if there's no Team Rocket? Their characters would be completely irrelevant to the main story, and their inclusion in the games would only feel forced and extraneous.

There is such a thing called character development, which you may not care about. Both Giovanni and Archer disbanded Team Rocket and I would expect them to move on with their lives, despite Giovanni's relapse in HGSS.

If the guys exist, then they don't exist, and vice-versa, and since GF decided to side with the guys, then they don't exist, period.

They don't exist as the PCs. That's all.

Lyra (love her or hate her), on the other hand, was established to exist separately from her male counterpart,

So what? This doesn't preclude the possibility of Kris and Leaf existing in the HGSS continuity despite not appearing in those games. Being MIA doesn't necessarily mean not existing, which you know fully well considering your stance on Jessie and James in Generation II.

In your own words (bolded by me):

So? I am not allowed to make an observation that the remakes haven't deviated much from the original stories? Even the ORAS additions revolved around Mega Evolution rather than plotholes from the original games.

Gen 1 will likely be the next remake, like it or not.

This may come as a shock, but your thinking this doesn't make it true. Most fans don't share your opinion about the prospect of re-remakes.

FRLG are the next oldest games after RSE, and Gen 1 is the only Gen that can't be played on current hardware

Which doesn't mean that a return to Kanto necessitates another set of remakes.

I'd rather fix the older games' flaws before making any new continuations.

It isn't your call.

Then, after that, we can start talking about sequels.

More like re-remakes of the other generations. No thanks.

I think I'm done derailing this thread. It was obvious that you started this thread just to promote your bias toward the "ultimate remakes" that only exist in your head, but you're going too far.

BettyNewbie · Feb 13, 2015

Unown Lord said:
It doesn't exist in a vaccum, but just because Mega Evolution altered its history doesn't mean that something similar happened in Kanto. Zinnia only referred to the history of Mega Evolution in Hoenn, and it was made abundantly clear that it wasn't something common.

She only referred to Hoenn because that's the region ORAS was focusing on. It's silly to assume that just because she didn't mention the other regions (besides Kalos) means that Megas (and Fairies) don't exist there.

Unown Lord said:
Both Giovanni and Archer disbanded Team Rocket and I would expect them to move on with their lives, despite Giovanni's relapse in HGSS.

Which is why there wouldn't be any reason to include them in sequels. They wouldn't have any relevance to the main story.

Unown Lord said:
They don't exist as the PCs. That's all.

And, there's no other role they could possibly serve (because neither Crystal or FRLG gave them one if you played as the guy), so they don't exist period.

Unown Lord said:
Being MIA doesn't necessarily mean not existing, which you know fully well considering your stance on Jessie and James in Generation II.

I would fully agree that Jessie and James don't exist in HGSS' timeline, because those are supposed to be sequels to FRLG, and FRLG never established them as existing. The original timeline is a different story.

Similar can be said for Kris and Green/Leaf. The former DOES exist in the RBY/GSC continuity, as her role as the female PC was not replaced by another character (and no sequel was made that established Gold as the canon PC). It's the FRLG/HGSS one where she doesn't, and that's because her role is filled by Lyra.

Similar can be said for Green/Leaf. She doesn't exist if you play as Red, and vice-versa, and since HGSS are sequels to FRLG as played with the male PC, then Green/Leaf just doesn't exist, period.

Unown Lord said:
So? I am not allowed to make an observation that the remakes haven't deviated much from the original stories? Even the ORAS additions revolved around Mega Evolution rather than plotholes from the original games.

So long as you don't endlessly criticize and nitpick other people's observations.

Unown Lord said:
Most fans don't share your opinion about the prospect of re-remakes.

Bulbagarden =/= the entire fandom. There's actually quite a bit of support for a new remake at this site.

Unown Lord said:
Which doesn't mean that a return to Kanto necessitates another set of remakes.

Then, why didn't we get RSE sequels instead of ORAS? Many people want to be able to play through Gen 1's story on a 3DS with modern graphics and mechanics.

Unown Lord said:
It isn't your call.

Just like sequels aren't your call.

Unown Lord said:
It was obvious that you started this thread just to promote your bias toward the "ultimate remakes" that only exist in your head, but you're going too far.

I'm the biased one? Ha, ha! {XD} Who's the one who derailed the thread to promote his bias towards the "ultimate sequels" that only exist in his head?

mew_nani · Feb 13, 2015

Good God you BOTH are derailing the thread. If you guys can't agree on the topics you're arguing over can't you just agree to disagree? Wanting remakes to follow closely to the originals isn't entirely wrong, and neither is wanting more things to be added or bringing back things that people really liked in the originals. I don't think there will possibly be a remake that will please everybody, given everyone's diverse tastes.

Unown Seer · Feb 13, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
She only referred to Hoenn because that's the region ORAS was focusing on. It's silly to assume that just because she didn't mention the other regions (besides Kalos) means that Megas (and Fairies) don't exist there.

I never said that they don't exist, but there is no reason to assume that their existence has changed the Kanto story in a notable way that requires more remakes.

Which is why there wouldn't be any reason to include them in sequels. They wouldn't have any relevance to the main story.

They would. I don't see the point of discussing it with you here, though.

And, there's no other role they could possibly serve (because neither Crystal or FRLG gave them one if you played as the guy), so they don't exist period.

I pity you if you think that the scope of Pokémon world is limited to the player's perspective in a given game. Did the B2W2 characters exist in BW? They did, but we simply didn't get to see them. HGSS even go as far as to pinpoint the existence of an unseen trainer with the third starter, so the theory that Kris still exists is hardly a stretch.

Bulbagarden =/= the entire fandom. There's actually quite a bit of support for a new remake at this site.

This site =/= the entire fandom, and even here I see no sign of re-remakes being as well received as regular remakes. You're still arguing with people all the time.

Then, why didn't we get RSE sequels instead of ORAS?

Because most fans wanted remakes and made it clear to Game Freak via social media.

Many people want to be able to play through Gen 1's story on a 3DS with modern graphics and mechanics.

How many is many? It's just empty words without statistics.

Just like sequels aren't your call.

They aren't. But I am not pretending that they're a necessary outcome or that I'm entitled to get them.

I'm the biased one? Ha, ha! {XD} Who's the one who derailed the thread to promote his bias towards the "ultimate sequels" that only exist in his head?

I was just pointing out the irony of your complaint about FRLG replacing sequels.

BettyNewbie · Feb 13, 2015

You say a lot of things, Silktree, yet you never provide the slightest bit of hard evidence to back up your claims (while expecting others to do so and getting angry when they don't). You make assumptions and put words into people's mouths, all for the sake of keeping the argument going. It's not even about the subject at hand, but instead, "winning," isn't it? Why else would you not just say "agree to disagree" and move on? Answer: You don't get an ego boost from it.

We disagree on many things, but one thing we do have in common is that we clearly aren't 100% satisfied with the current crop of games GF's putting out. Well, you joined the right site, then. Pokécommunity has a large ROM hacking community filled with talented hackers who can make games that are just as good (if not better) than GF. If you want a Gen 2 sequel so badly, then I recommend either Pokémon Christmas or Pokémon Bronze. Brown is also good if you want something a little different. Want a Mewtwo-centric game? Prototype and Dark Violet are worth supporting. There is a wealth of great games here.

CoffeeDrink · Feb 13, 2015

mew_nani said:
Good God you BOTH are derailing the thread. If you guys can't agree on the topics you're arguing over can't you just agree to disagree?

Like I told you Nani, putting sugar and creamer in coffee is a huge crime! Why would you try and change the flavor of the coffee itself? The truth is that you don't even truly like the taste of coffee! You're more inclined to sweeteners and creams and milks (you milk drinker)! The beans have been roasted in such a way that has been a process that has taken years to perfect and you pouring two spoons of sugar in it is sickening! How many cups of 'coffee' would you be able to drink if you keep pouring milk up and down? Every frickin' time I swear, people don't realize that there is a limit to how much milk and creamer you can drink before you throw up and that is not only disgusting, it's not classy at all. And have you ever had to deal with someone who 'hid' or has forgotten their milk laden 'coffee' somewhere and you find it after that thing has festered for a day or two in the heat? Graah! All of you make me sick with your altering and defiling of the great natural flavor that has been provided for you! How would you like it if you made something that was perfect and someone went and ruined it, hm? Not very much I would like to believe. So next time you go to drink your coffee, don't pour a bunch of garbage into it capisce? Good. We understand each other.

wait. . . was this about remakes? Oh yeah, it was. Well I would totally argue that the original was so much better than the remake. I mean if you're going to remake something don't do it word for word, right? It's like they didn't even try to change it or even improve upon the original material! What's the point if it's all the same? You could just say I've already been to see that one before! If they really wanted to improve upon it, they shouldn't have. Carrie was a Brian de Palma film and it should have stayed that way. Freaking Hollywood. . .

Mega_Kris · Feb 13, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
Says the person who keeps on insisting that every remake should be a direct copy/paste because that's what they enjoy the most.

I'm getting tired of you intentionally misreading my point.

First off, copy and paste implies that they didn't rework anything. Pokemon FRLG were complete remakes, no matter how faithful they were, they were NOT copy/paste. Afterall, they had far less glitches than RB. What i'm insisting isn't a direct copy and paste. A remake depends on how much they rework from the ground up regardless if their aiming to make the exact same game. For example: Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, was VERY faithful, but it was still remade from the ground up with all new code. And yes, expansion is welcomed, but expansion "meant' for the game of its time.

more minigames, new areas, or slight expansion to other areas already in existence for some overworld side quest. Considering Gen 2 was made before the remake, it definitely would've seen a post game linked to Gen 2. All that would be nice and not hurt the core of the game.

You constantly ignore this point of mine. Probably because you're dead set on wanting the things you want, regardless if its on-point with the main discusion. Which is fine, but this back-and-forth is because you "CHOOSE" to misinterpret.

SECOND: Its not because its what they want the most. its because, a remake is "DESIGNED" to be faithful to the original.....its' not designed to give a whoel new experience that you can't even call it one. Heck, a million pokemon fans can have a wrong idea of wahat a remake is and claim to want one, that doesn't mean they should complain when they actually get a real one.

If ugly sprites are the biggest problem for you, then this patch should be enough.

I rather play an official game with reworked graphics rather than a fan patch. that's just the way i am. I enjoy fangames, but only as "fangames". SO directing me to a patch just feels like your hitting the bottom of the barrel. New fans especially back then probably didn't get the culture of fangames that pokemon community build. making an official remake was a good call. How they handled it? not the best, but not the worst either.

What are your thoughts on ORAS? Unlike FRLG and even HGSS, ORAS was treated more like a reboot instead of a remake, so it expanded on its original games' story by a lot. (Granted, it's a story and setting that I've never been a huge fan of, but I can respect what ORAS did with it.)

To me, that's the kind of remake that I want to see more of, especially now that ORAS has officially established the existence of a new timeline. Give me more reboots!

I feel like you acknowledge the problem, but act like there's this gap of recognition. I mean....you just acknowledge these aren't remakes....and yet.....you complain about what made this particular remake wrong.

Plus, Gen 1 still hasn't really been done "right," IMO, and I'd love to see it get its own ORAS-style reboot.

This to me is the BIGGEST issue....because it obviously needs "mega evolution" do be done "RIGHT"? (sarcasm) no.....it wont make Red/Blue any more "RIGHT" than it was before, in fact it's saying more of saying "Red and Blue was so wrong, there's no salvaging it". Yes, a reboot will make a whole new game...but it wont make Red/Blue anymore "Complete/right" than it is now....

BettyNewbie · Feb 14, 2015

Shiny_Unown said:
This to me is the BIGGEST issue....because it obviously needs "mega evolution" do be done "RIGHT"? (sarcasm) no.....it wont make Red/Blue any more "RIGHT" than it was before, in fact it's saying more of saying "Red and Blue was so wrong, there's no salvaging it". Yes, a reboot will make a whole new game...but it wont make Red/Blue anymore "Complete/right" than it is now....

You have COMPLETELY misread that statement. (Yet, you accuse me of misreading you?)

RBY aren't bad games at all, but they are very incomplete games, almost to the point of feeling like an Obvious Beta for GSC. They are loaded with all sorts of glitches, a lot of attacks don't work properly (see Focus Energy), and type balance is so laughably off as to be non-existent. The story, while solid, is also very simplistic, even compared to Gen 2.

And, FRLG didn't really do that good of a job of "completing" Gen 1, IMO. Yes, the glitches and broken moves are obviously fixed, but on the other hand, you're still stuck with a tiny Dex that's...

21.9% Poison (33/151 Pokémon)
21.2% Water (32/151 Pokémon)
15.9% Normal (24/151 Pokémon)

and

2% Ghost (3/151 Pokémon)
2% Dragon (3/151 Pokémon)
1.3% Steel (2/151 Pokémon)
0% Dark (0/151 Pokémon)

Type balance, what's that?

And, FRLG still lacked features that had become standard in the games starting with Gen 2, such as a cell phone and a clock. And, the story wasn't a whole lot more fleshed out than it was in RBY.

mew_nani · Feb 14, 2015

CoffeeDrink said:
Like I told you Nani, putting sugar and creamer in coffee is a huge crime! Why would you try and change the flavor of the coffee itself? The truth is that you don't even truly like the taste of coffee! You're more inclined to sweeteners and creams and milks (you milk drinker)! The beans have been roasted in such a way that has been a process that has taken years to perfect and you pouring two spoons of sugar in it is sickening! How many cups of 'coffee' would you be able to drink if you keep pouring milk up and down? Every frickin' time I swear, people don't realize that there is a limit to how much milk and creamer you can drink before you throw up and that is not only disgusting, it's not classy at all. And have you ever had to deal with someone who 'hid' or has forgotten their milk laden 'coffee' somewhere and you find it after that thing has festered for a day or two in the heat? Graah! All of you make me sick with your altering and defiling of the great natural flavor that has been provided for you! How would you like it if you made something that was perfect and someone went and ruined it, hm? Not very much I would like to believe. So next time you go to drink your coffee, don't pour a bunch of garbage into it capisce? Good. We understand each other.

wait. . . was this about remakes? Oh yeah, it was. Well I would totally argue that the original was so much better than the remake. I mean if you're going to remake something don't do it word for word, right? It's like they didn't even try to change it or even improve upon the original material! What's the point if it's all the same? You could just say I've already been to see that one before! If they really wanted to improve upon it, they shouldn't have. Carrie was a Brian de Palma film and it should have stayed that way. Freaking Hollywood. . .

I'd argue with this, but I tend to dislike coffee because I can't take large amounts of caffiene without bouncing all over the walls. My maximum tolerance level is half a small cup. XD

As for FR/LG being copy pasted, in a technical sense they were. It was Pokemon Red and Green translated, ported on the AGB engine, with some new areas and NPCs added. Obviously they weren't copy pasted like Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis was (thank God,) but most if not all the dialog in R/B were pretty much kept with the exception of some things which were nerfed or removed, like Gambler just being changed to Gamer. If you play through the game and then compare playing through Sevii Isles the NPCs treat you much differently than they do in Kanto. In Kanto you're only noticed if you walk into a trainer's line of sight or you're talking to a gym leader or Giovanni. Your character doesn't really move or is involved in anything until the Lostelle sidequest, where your character is spoken to and acknowledged like May and Brendan are in Ruby and Sapphire. You the player are the one initiating things and involving yourself in the plot, while in the other games the NPCs interact with you and get you to do things for them. The game I think is more of a port of Red and Green with a few bonus places added as opposed to a true remake, but the game being more like a Gen 1 game than a Gen 3 game isn't entirely a bad thing. It certainly makes it different than the other games in Gen 3, and it was still fun to play. I still miss Missingno. though.

Mega_Kris · Feb 14, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
You have COMPLETELY misread that statement.

s far you didn't say i was wrong.

(Yet, you accuse me of misreading you?)

i clarified a dozen times what i expect and what the norm of remakes are....

RBY aren't bad games at all, but they are very incomplete games, almost to the point of feeling like an Obvious Beta for GSC. They are loaded with all sorts of glitches, a lot of attacks don't work properly (see Focus Energy), and type balance is so laughably off as to be non-existent. The story, while solid, is also very simplistic, even compared to Gen 2.

And, FRLG didn't really do that good of a job of "completing" Gen 1, IMO. Yes, the glitches and broken moves are obviously fixed, but on the other hand, you're still stuck with a tiny Dex that's...

21.9% Poison (33/151 Pokémon)
21.2% Water (32/151 Pokémon)
15.9% Normal (24/151 Pokémon)

and

2% Ghost (3/151 Pokémon)
2% Dragon (3/151 Pokémon)
1.3% Steel (2/151 Pokémon)
0% Dark (0/151 Pokémon)

Type balance, what's that?

And, FRLG still lacked features that had become standard in the games starting with Gen 2, such as a cell phone and a clock. And, the story wasn't a whole lot more fleshed out than it was in RBY.

Considering games had color limitations, i don't necessarily have a strong belief that internal clock was meant for gen 1. Same with phone calls. The phone feature has always felt a way to promote the interconnectivity with a real phone back for japan. Whether it's a standard feature now in the series isn't really the main point.

Considering Dark/Steel was introduced/reworked in Gen 2...i don't think its a huge issue. Look how long it took for "Fairy" pokemon to be used. Personally, dark wasn't that great of a feature. Psychic Type were difficult, but some of that is part of its charm. But regardless, Still, there are other ways to working with it. Not only that, but i've managed to beat Psychic pokemon WITHOUT dark type.

able to carry items i believe is definitely something i thought was meant for Gen 1, and berries as well. breeding, day/night features....considering gameboy color...not that much.

Unown Seer · Feb 14, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
If you want a Gen 2 sequel so badly, then I recommend either Pokémon Christmas

I'd sooner compare that to a third version. I tried it but the fact that history repeated itself gave me a headache.

or Pokémon Bronze.

I am not familiar with this one. The new sprites aren't good (relative to the Generation II sprites), but I can overlook that if the game makes up for it.

Brown is also good if you want something a little different.

Aren't all the important characters in that game lookalikes of Kanto characters with different names? I don't want to criticize an individual person's continuous work (I have a lot of respect for that alone), but I don't see the appeal of this mishmash.

Want a Mewtwo-centric game? Prototype

This one looks interesting, but there is no indication of when it's going to be done; the problem is that I may forget about it. I also don't see the point of completely tweaking Kanto's map to the point of making it unrecognizable on the Town Map alone. Pallet Town's new theme has nothing to do with the original one, nor is it better in my opinion. It's a shame that these changes delay the hack's release and are unlikely to make me like it more. Here's a novel idea: If you want to do new things with Kanto, add new locations to it while fleshing out the original ones. If any cities need new themes, it's the ones that lack their own unique ones.

I will say that I see no need for Team Rocket to be linked to Mewtwo. It wasn't implied in the games and after seeing it done in other media, it would be refreshing for Game Freak to do something else. The only character with established ties to Mew and Mewtwo is Mr. Fuji, and any good story should involve him in a big way. I give credit to Origins for being the first adaptation to reinforce Fuji's history (the regular anime's Dr. Fuji was a completely different character).

and Dark Violet are worth supporting.

Dark Violent has been discontinued and I have issues with the suggested plot outline (it has too much to do with a certain "twist" than anything of actual substance).

There is a wealth of great games here.

That depends on what you're looking for. It's much easier to find a good fan-made remake than a sequel; I'm replaying FireRed right now using Throwback's GB Player patch (since I like the original music) and Evolution's overhaul of the available Pokémon (386+30 cross-generational relatives), mechanics from all generations (save for Mega Evolution, which doesn't bother me in the slightest), base stat and learnset upgrades, and revamped trainer teams (the bosses all provide a decent challenge with full rosters and good movesets). There are no changes to the story (other than the addition of Proton, Petrel, Ariana and Archer), but I can live with that as I accept the original story for what it is and want to see it expanded via sequels.

BettyNewbie · Feb 14, 2015

Unown Lord said:
I'd sooner compare that to a third version. I tried it but the fact that history repeated itself gave me a headache.

Did you play the 2014 version? It plays out a lot differently from the 2012 one.

Unown Lord said:
I am not familiar with this one. The new sprites aren't good (relative to the Generation II sprites), but I can overlook that if the game makes up for it.

Well, I played it, and I thought it was a good game. It was designed with the intention of being a direct sequel to GSC in the same way that GSC was a direct sequel to RBY.

Unown Lord said:
Aren't all the important characters in that game lookalikes of Kanto characters with different names? I don't want to criticize an individual person's continuous work (I have a lot of respect for that alone), but I don't see the appeal of this mishmash.

They aren't supposed to be, going by his GBA sequel, Rijon Adventures. Not as much is known about Gen 1 hacking as there is Gen 3 hacking, especially when Brown was first made, so it's possible that he didn't know how to change the Gym Leader sprites. You'd have to ask him, though; I don't know. *shrug*

Unown Lord said:
Here's a novel idea: If you want to do new things with Kanto, add new locations to it while fleshing out the original ones. If any cities need new themes, it's the ones that lack their own unique ones.

Again, there's only so much you can do with a Gen 1 base, and there just isn't as much Gen 1 hacking knowledge going around, in general. It's changing, but it's still nowhere near as accessible or widespread as Gen 3 hacking. (I guess, you could argue that he should've just used a FireRed base, instead, but maybe he preferred the look of the older games?)

Unown Lord said:
I will say that I feel no need for Team Rocket to be linked to Mewtwo. It wasn't implied in the games and after seeing it done in other media, it would be refreshing for Game Freak to do something else. The only character with established ties to Mew and Mewtwo is Mr. Fuji, and any good story should involve him in a big way. I give credit to Origins for being the first adaptation to reinforce Fuji's history (the regular anime's Dr. Fuji was a completely different character).

I think one reason a lot of people want Team Rocket to be linked to Mewtwo is not just because of the anime, but because it would make them darker and more interesting as villains. They're the only Evil Team that isn't linked to a Legendary Pokémon, after all.

Unown Lord said:
Dark Violent has been discontinued and I have issues with the suggested plot outline (it has too much to do with a certain "twist" than anything of actual substance).

If you read the post, you'd see that he's planning a new hack that's similar, although I have no idea when he'll get started. You'd have to ask him about that.

Unown Lord said:
That depends on what you're looking for. It's much easier to find a good fan-made remake than a sequel

True, but a lot of that is because good sequels are just harder to make, period. TV Tropes even has a name for it.

While it's technically a remake, have you given Liquid Crystal a try? It adds far more new areas and story elements than HGSS did, so you might be something you'd be interested in.

There's also Pokémon Glazed, which positions itself as a GSC-style sequel to Gen 2. You can visit Johto in the postgame with a new story and new areas. (They even give it its own separate League from Kanto.)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Sequelitis

Unown Lord said:
I'm replaying FireRed right now using Throwback's GB Player patch (since I like the original music) and Evolution's overhaul of the available Pokémon (386+30 cross-generational evolutions), mechanics from all generations (save for Mega Evolution, which doesn't bother me in the slightest) and trainer teams (the bosses all provide a decent challenge with full rosters and good movesets). There are no changes to the story (other than the addition of Proton, Petrel, Ariana and Archer), but I can live with that as I accept the original story for what it is and want to see it expanded via sequels.

Well, if you're going to play FRLG nowadays, that would probably be the way to do it. :P

One hack I'm following right now is Red++. It's an overhaul of old school Red with nicer graphics and tons of new features like gender selection, a P/S Split, Fairy typing, new moves, new Pokémon, several bugfixes, and so much more. There's also a possibility for added story elements and even the Orange Islands as a postgame area. No, it's not the same as a modern 3DS remake, but it's a new enough way of experiencing Gen 1 (and making it more "complete") for me, which is what matters the most. Plus, I happen to enjoy the old school 8-bit games (much more than the GBA ones, in fact).

CoffeeDrink · Feb 14, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
21.9% Poison (33/151 Pokémon)
21.2% Water (32/151 Pokémon)
15.9% Normal (24/151 Pokémon)

and

2% Ghost (3/151 Pokémon)
2% Dragon (3/151 Pokémon)
1.3% Steel (2/151 Pokémon)
0% Dark (0/151 Pokémon)

You uh. Missed a few types there.

12% Flying (18/151 Pokémon)
9.2% Grass (14/151 Pokémon)
9.2% Ground (14/151 Pokémon)
9% Psychic (14/151 Pokémon)
7.9% Fire (12/151 Pokémon)
7.9% Bug (12/151 Pokémon)
7.2% Rock (11/151 Pokémon)
5.9% Electric (9/151 Pokémon)
5.2% Fighting (8/151 Pokémon)
3% Ice (5/151 Pokémon)

I go all the way. And technically, there shouldn't have been any dark types to begin with due to original Super Effective mapping. I think there is also the fact that Bug was effective against Poison and vice-versa.

Unown Seer · Feb 14, 2015

BettyNewbie said:
Did you play the 2014 version? It plays out a lot differently from the 2012 one.

I downloaded it around a week ago, so yes. I've also read enough about it to know that the story is still mostly a rehash. Am I missing something?

Well, I played it, and I thought it was a good game. It was designed with the intention of being a direct sequel to GSC in the same way that GSC was a direct sequel to RBY.

I'll have to give it a try.

They aren't supposed to be, going by his GBA sequel, Rijon Adventures. Not as much is known about Gen 1 hacking as there is Gen 3 hacking, especially when Brown was first made, so it's possible that he didn't know how to change the Gym Leader sprites. You'd have to ask him, though; I don't know. *shrug*

Has he ever designed unique sprites for these new characters? The artwork is nice and all, but we don't get to see it while playing. Rijon Adventures hasn't been touched in 6 years, apparently.

Again, there's only so much you can do with a Gen 1 base, and there just isn't as much Gen 1 hacking knowledge going around, in general. It's changing, but it's still nowhere near as accessible or widespread as Gen 3 hacking. (I guess, you could argue that he should've just used a FireRed base, instead, but maybe he preferred the look of the older games?)

He basically created a brand new region despite calling it Kanto. How is that simpler than working with the actual Kanto as a base? It's just his preference: "Yeah, I've thought about this alot. I don't want to rename the region and towns because I don't want the players to be unable to connect with the world. I want them to walk into a new town and say "Ahhh, Celadon (:" Otherwise it will be a game with a bunch of ambiguous names to which the player doesn't have any attachments."

I think one reason a lot of people want Team Rocket to be linked to Mewtwo is not just because of the anime, but because it would make them darker and more interesting as villains. They're the only Evil Team that isn't linked to a Legendary Pokémon, after all.

I think that most people just lack imagination, although Game Freak haven't proven to be much better. Legendaries being manipulated by villains is a tired plot.

If you read the post, you'd see that he's planning a new hack that's similar, although I have no idea when he'll get started. You'd have to ask him about that.

Given his track record, it will never be completed and who knows if it will be better than what DarkViolent would have been.

While it's technically a remake, have you given Liquid Crystal a try? It adds far more new areas and story elements than HGSS did, so you might be something you'd be interested in.

Having watched a few videos, I don't like any of the plot deviations. Why make all the legendaries relevant to Johto's story? Team Saturn look like an attempt to mimic Team Galactic.

And no Crystal remake can be considered complete without Eusine having a unique sprite, or with certain Johto themes being replaced by Kanto ones.

There's also Pokémon Glazed, which positions itself as a GSC-style sequel to Gen 2. You can visit Johto in the postgame with a new story and new areas. (They even give it its own separate League from Kanto.)

See above.

Plus, I happen to enjoy the old school 8-bit games (much more than the GBA ones, in fact).

Which is pretty weird. You want 3D graphics but you dislike more modern 2D games? I can understand preferring 8-bit music, but how is Kanto more interesting to explore in GB/C graphics?

3rd Gen What went wrong with FRLG?

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GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD

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mew_nani

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GET WHILE THE GETTIN'S GOOD

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