Atheism

[Åzurε]

Okey dokey. Starting notes: I'm Protestant Christian. I'm not in a mood for outright debate, so don't expect a whole bunch of heated posting. I'm just typing what I'm thinking. And... Begin.

Actually, the Christian version is that Lucifer was an angel created by God who refused to kneel before humans. He was extremely vain and was banished by God to Hell, where Lucifer currently rules. God is not Lucifer's father. According to Christianity, the only "son" God has is Jesus (and if you want to broaden on some of the things taught, Christianity also teaches that every human is the daughter and son of God, but I don't believe that's to be taken literally).

Lucifer fell "like lightning", but is not yet contained in Hell. In the book of Job, he (now Satan) says he has been walking the earth, or among man.
Hell is also, in my understanding, eternal separation from God, and as much a state of being as a location.
Christianity teaches that humans are sons (gender-neutral pronoun, I think) of God in two ways: One, more generalized and in the sense that everything originates from God. Two, faithful Christians are considered children in almost every way. In that God is an authority to them, in that God gives an inheritance (common occurrence when the phrase was written), and that they are to honor Him in the a manner akin to the way a Hebrew child was to honor their parents. Heck, I bet I could work up a sermon on this, but anyway. Next bit.

In the Qu'ran, Lucifer is a Djinn who also refused to kneel before humans because he did not believe humans were better than Djinns. He told God that he was going to prove Him wrong - that humans were actually evil at heart, and not benevolent as God said. He was granted eternal life as to try and prove God wrong, while God looked down on the foolish Djinn. God rules over Hell, not Lucifer. Lucifer is merely a presence now who seeks to corrupt humanity with atheism and, I'm assuming, polytheism. He uses many resources to attempt to corrupt us as to prove the Almighty Creator incorrect (the media, being the biggest one).

Contrary to popular belief, Djinns are not "demons". There are good Djinns, and there are bad Djinns. Djinns generally even believe in God. It was a separate race which lacked intelligence, but acquired mystical capabilities instead. Humans were deemed the intelligent species, while angels are but mere slaves of God - slaves incapable of going against God's will and incapable of thinking for themselves.

Same basic story, but a bit different from each other at the same time. Lucifer is the "misleading light in the darkness", the bringer of false light. He is therefore the Anti-Christ of both the Bible and the Qu'ran.

"Even the demons believe". An interesting parallel, if nothing else.

There is no particular antichrist. First and Second John are the only books to use the word in the NIV, and myths about a particular antichrist (note that this bit of thought is pure speculation) appear to have been already spreading then.

Indeed, and that is why Eve was so easily deceived by the satanic reptile. The naiveness of a child is the innocence before knowing what's bad. It is after she consumed the apple that her naivety was lost.

Hmm. It was still her choice, though.

Indeed, from my experience with both religions, Christianity is a religion that followers believe they must force on others, and scorn those who disbelieve them. That's why in history, Christians are the worst for converting people and killing those who opposed (in Canada, Christian Europeans kidnapped aboriginals and turned them Christian; in America, there was a huge Indian manslaughter because of different beliefs). In Islam, we are opposed to that, and we are taught to accept everyone's views and to respect everyone. An example would be when Arabia took over Spain for 800 years. Are the Spanish Muslim today? They could have been, but no, the majority are still Catholic because the Muslims never forced it on them.

First sentence: It's true, but I would like to note that while it is part of Christianity to evangelize and convert people (to a great degree, for their own good), it is not biblical to force it upon other people, or to look down upon those who don't believe. People who would do - and have done - that have seriously misunderstood the scriptures.

The rest: Catholicism is a great deal different than Protestantism, which is what I have experience with. Example A: the Pope. It's a nice idea, I can see it reinforcing unity, but he seems to have progressed among the more devout Catholics into being above normal people on some levels. Also, praying to beings other than God is directly unbiblical.

Also, Ghandi.

Of course, there are good people and bad people in every religion and country, as are there the rare extremists in every religion on Earth. I'm sure some Muslims forced their religion on others, and I'm sure some Christians refuse to force it and tolerate others' religious choices. The examples above are just some major, historical examples of tolerancy differences between Christianity and Islam.

Thanks for providing quote-fodder, Yusshin. I like reading your posts, because it's an atypical viewpoint from what I'm used to, and you're good at remaining reasonable. I have recently found a new love for people on the internet who don't think religion on the whole is stupid.

Wall of text: En fin.

 

[Yusshin]

Thanks for providing quote-fodder, Yusshin. I like reading your posts, because it's an atypical viewpoint from what I'm used to, and you're good at remaining reasonable. I have recently found a new love for people on the internet who don't think religion on the whole is stupid.

I hope that was meant to be nice, because it made me feel fuzzy inside o-o! <3

 

[Åzurε]

I hope that was meant to be nice, because it made me feel fuzzy inside o-o! <3

Yeah, it was. I was getting annoyed at the forum in my mind just typing it out, so it was kind of hard to be outright positive and uplifting. >.<"

 

[Yusshin]

Yeah, it was. I was getting annoyed at the forum in my mind just typing it out, so it was kind of hard to be outright positive and uplifting. >.<"

Yay xD It was kinda obvious, but I wanted to be certain o.o just to be sure I didn't take it the wrong way or have a doubt.

I'm surprised this thread isn't a total flamefest, really :| WE DO GOOD! @ all participants

 

[Esper]

There's a lot of religion in this thread about atheism. Go figure.

I'm a non-believer, wasn't raised with any religion, and don't think about these kinds of things except when something like this thread crosses my path. When they do I try to stay non-militant.

 

[shookie]

I grew up in a really weird family religion-wise. My mom's Catholic, my dad is Christian, and the latter is more headstrong about it than the former. My grandparents (on my dad's side) didn't want my parents to get married solely because my mom is Catholic, which almost lead to them eloping. So even though my mom went to catholic schools, as did her sisters, nobody on her side practices the religion as much as my dad's side does.

I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm atheist, but I don't practice a religion. It's not that I don't believe in a God, or Gods, or think there's anything wrong with people believing in a higher being. I just don't like people who choose to blame said higher force for everything good and bad in their life. That's how my dad approached every situation. His girlfriend didn't break up with him because of how he is, but because Satan is out to ruin his day. He didn't get the worst parking space in the parking lot because it's a busy day, but because Satan made sure he had a terrible parking space. Etc.
I also don't approve of anything, not just a religion, that thinks it's okay to go around forcing others to listen to their beliefs and accept them as their own.*

The scientific part of my mind has a lot of trouble comprehending a lot of the things people try to explain with religion, too. I believe in the Big Bang, the theory of evolution, and everything like that. Being able to see something that is concrete and can be put on paper and backed up by facts is much more convincing to me than "Well this guy said it's true, so it's gotta be true."

* I have nothing against people that are strong believers of their religion or who are just very religious people. I have cousins on my dad's side who are awesome, and the fact that they attend Christian college on dry campuses and are friends with the pastor's children doesn't bother me one bit. The fact that my dad's family says grace and talk about church at dinner doesn't bother me, either. It's only when they cross the line and make a big deal about how I don't believe in whatever aspect of religion they're talking about that gets me. The second they mention Jesus I don't throw my dinner plate across the room and smack them with my beliefs, so when they find out I don't know more than one or two bible passages shouldn't be a reason for them to do the same to me.

 

[Yusshin]

I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm atheist, but I don't practice a religion. It's not that I don't believe in a God, or Gods, or think there's anything wrong with people believing in a higher being. I just don't like people who choose to blame said higher force for everything good and bad in their life. That's how my dad approached every situation. His girlfriend didn't break up with him because of how he is, but because Satan is out to ruin his day. He didn't get the worst parking space in the parking lot because it's a busy day, but because Satan made sure he had a terrible parking space. Etc.
I also don't approve of anything, not just a religion, that thinks it's okay to go around forcing others to listen to their beliefs and accept them as their own.*

Actually, on a similar note, as a Christian I believed that God controlled everyone, that free will was a distortion of reaity. In truth, since God knew what everyone was going to do, He planned for some of us to suffer and some of us not to suffer.

This lead me to the same thing your father is doing. I would blame God, not people, for everything. It was always God's fault, or it was Satan. Usually it was God's fault, though.

That is, until I realized God knew what was going to happen, but it was a "test" for us. I stopped blaming God after that, since God is not a scapegoat.

 

[.Gamer]

Wouldn't it have been better just to make a 'Religion' thread? That way non-atheists can post.

I am not athiest though. Christian(ish).

 

[Neil Peart]

I'd like to take a minute to point out the delicious irony in that you're calling theists ignorant and small-minded when every theist in this thread has made a much more eloquent post than this. XD

Wow, you can assume like no other - I bow to you.

First off, I NEVER called THEISTS ignorant, I called ANYONE who can't handle someone's criticisms online small-minded.

Get your facts straight.

And if we're gauging by eloquence here, I really don't care. My viewpoints aren't going to be scrubbed and polished just to please a few people.

 

[Ho-Oh]

I'm straight.

And Christian.

 

[Blue Nocturne]

I am an atheist, but my dads side of the family is some kind of christian. I was brought up in a sort-of christian way. I occasionally went to church and celebrated all the stuff, but when i was about 9, i started to question religion. I started looking at the story from a non-bias view: "A man in the sky looks down on us and those who are good from his P.o.V go to a magical place in the sky etc." Then I compared that to the story of santa claus, which seemed more plausible.

As someone big on science, i have trouble understanding Religion. I believe in Event One and Evolution because theres some evidence to it, rather than believing it simply because a book says so.

I have arguments (not serious ones though) with my dad about religious quite a lot. And my argument about lack of proof comes up a lot. Examine this conversation between me and him (wording not exact):

Me: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God? In fact, why isn't there ANY proof that God actually exists.
Him: He did prove it. He performed loads of miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!
Me: Why didn't he prove that he is God and prove the existence of god in a way thats provable, like moving a mountain or physically manifesting?
Him: He couldn't do that; that would take away our free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
Me: Then why did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Bible?
Him: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.
Me: You told me that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.
Him: No, I -
Me: But thats what you just said?
Him: No, what I just said is that the miracles prove that Jesus was God, and that God is real.
Me: So why didn't Jesus or God perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?
Him: Because that would take away our free will.

Can you see the circular logic here?

 

[Åzurε]

I am an atheist, but my dads side of the family is some kind of christian. I was brought up in a sort-of christian way. I occasionally went to church and celebrated all the stuff, but when i was about 9, i started to question religion. I started looking at the story from a non-bias view: "A man in the sky looks down on us and those who are good from his P.o.V go to a magical place in the sky etc." Then I compared that to the story of santa claus, which seemed more plausible.

To be honest it does sound rather ridiculous at first glance. However, it's never a good idea to take a religion (or lack thereof, for that matter) at face value. If science is the final word (here's looking at you, forum-I-don't want-to-call-out), wouldn't it be prudent to examine this like you would any other hypothesis? start with internal consistency, then external, and go from there. I could also get into how the sky is irrelevant, and how "being good" doesn't matter so much as you made it sound.

As someone big on science, i have trouble understanding Religion. I believe in Event One and Evolution because theres some evidence to it, rather than believing it simply because a book says so.

I never understood of this- I'm well acquainted with evolution, but what evidence is there for the Big Bang occurring? I look it up and all I get is techno-babble.

I'll try and answer questions from that argument now-

Me: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God? In fact, why isn't there ANY proof that God actually exists.

Jesus, when he walked the Earth, performed "more miracles than could be written about"(I forget the passage), but it appears most of them were healing, or just helping someone. Funny, no?
Proof for God's existence. Most everything I would produce would be written off as a product of evolution if it were shown to an atheist. Other than living things, there are fading signs of the flood, and ruins. Ruins offer very little, and the flood thing is debated daily.

Me: Why didn't he prove that he is God and prove the existence of god in a way thats provable, like moving a mountain or physically manifesting?
Him: He couldn't do that; that would take away our free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.

I'm gonna take issue with your padrè for second here. I don't think that moving a mountain would force anyone to believe in God. People probably would do whatever they feel like once the shock wore off. Just like they do now.
Jesus seemed to be deeply personal. I doubt he would feel it necessary to move any mountains, because that wouldn't make life better for people. He was also humble. What would cutting a mountain down do, except create some kind of altar for Himself?

Me: Then why did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Bible?
Him: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.

True. We would no reason to believe if nobody saw him do something only God could do, bring back the dead. Instilling life back into that which was already wholly deceased. Show me science doing that. The other miracles were for the edification of his followers, bringing people into Christianity, and just to help people.

Can you see the circular logic here?

I know where your dad was coming from, but I can see how it sounded to you.

 

[Moltres111]

I'm an atheist, because I believe there is no God. I believe "God" is something humans have created.

I have a muslim friend though, and I respect him for his religious view, but personally, I will say there is no God until I get proof that he actually exists.

That's just my opinion though..

 

[Zeph.]

I called ANYONE who can't handle someone's criticisms online small-minded.

Get your facts straight.

And if we're gauging by eloquence here, I really don't care. My viewpoints aren't going to be scrubbed and polished just to please a few people.

Again, the irony :) Good way of handling criticism there...

 

[Yusshin]

Me: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God? In fact, why isn't there ANY proof that God actually exists.
Him: He did prove it. He performed loads of miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!
Me: Why didn't he prove that he is God and prove the existence of god in a way thats provable, like moving a mountain or physically manifesting?
Him: He couldn't do that; that would take away our free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
Me: Then why did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Bible?
Him: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.
Me: You told me that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.
Him: No, I -
Me: But thats what you just said?
Him: No, what I just said is that the miracles prove that Jesus was God, and that God is real.
Me: So why didn't Jesus or God perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?
Him: Because that would take away our free will.

That's partially why Christianity made no sense to me.

I much prefer the way that Islam explains it. Jesus was a miracle-worker who was permitted to perform miracles with God's permission. Jesus never claimed to be God, even in the Bible, because Jesus is not God. He's a prophet who merely spread the word of God to the people in the area. Although we do not believe Jesus was resurrected (he was replaced by a look-alike at the last minute), Jesus was capable of reviving the dead, curing the blind, and healing the disfigured - with God's permission, of course. These miracles were the will of God that took his body temporarily, but it was certainly not Jesus himself performing these miracles. With God's permission, even Moses moved the water to save the Jewish from Egyptian slavery. There was no reason for Jesus to "move a mountain" other than to prove that he could. As said earlier, I believe God wants us to believe in His existance by piecing it together, rather than demanding "If God really wants us to believe He exists, we want concrete proof!" He could have made us all believers if He wanted to, but He decided to let us decide for ourselves, for He wants us to believe in Him and His words even after the decease of His prophets. It is much better to be loved by will than involuntarily.

All respect to Christians, though. I'm just expressing what confuzzled me with that religion, too, and one of the reasons I converted from it (among many).

Jesus was a great man, but even as a Christian, the idea that he was, indeed, God Himself was too farfetch'd. I don't mean to offend anyone, though. I don't see why we would call anyone who isn't God our "Lord", or why we were forced to sing "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong, they are weak but he is strong". That should moreso be a chant to God, not Jesus. I'm sure Jesus would love us, too, but being a mere man, it's a bit odd to say that a man who lived 2,000 years ago who doesn't know the people of this generation personally would love us. God will always love us, though, since He knows all of us personally.

 

[Neil Peart]

Again, the irony :) Good way of handling criticism there...

Wow. I'm abrasive, so I'm a troll? Get real. It's not my fault that you're used to a nicer tone.

 

[Uecil]

I'm Christian, I believe in God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell and Satan, simple as really. I would explain
why I chose to believe in them but it'll take a whole lot of writing, but some people that are of a certain don't exactly follow their religion as strictly as
others do, so I've heard.

 

[Åzurε]

That's partially why Christianity made no sense to me.

I much prefer the way that Islam explains it. Jesus was a miracle-worker who was permitted to perform miracles with God's permission. Jesus never claimed to be God, even in the Bible, because Jesus is not God.

John 8:24 - "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins."
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I AM is a Hebrew term for God, if I'm not mistaken. There's other passages, too.

EDIT: Including one of my favorites, Philippians 2:6 and the subsequent verses.

Jesus was a great man, but even as a Christian, the idea that he was, indeed, God Himself was too farfetch'd. I don't mean to offend anyone, though. I don't see why we would call anyone who isn't God our "Lord", or why we were forced to sing "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong, they are weak but he is strong". That should moreso be a chant to God, not Jesus. I'm sure Jesus would love us, too, but being a mere man, it's a bit odd to say that a man who lived 2,000 years ago who doesn't know the people of this generation personally would love us. God will always love us, though, since He knows all of us personally.

Nobody should be forced to sing in a church of real, faithful followers. Ever. Jesus, being God, would know each of us personally. And that's an important aspect of my faith.

 

[Yusshin]

John 8:24 - "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins."
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, "I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I AM is a Hebrew term for God, if I'm not mistaken. There's other passages, too.

I never read those passages before, but it seems to me that Jesus is speaking for God to the people, and not as God, if that makes sense.

In the Qu'ran, God says to Jesus: "Did you ever say that you were Me?", in which Jesus replies: "No, never. I would never dishonour You by pretending to be You."

I guess that's where faith differences come into play. As a Christian, we were forced to sing and praise Jesus, and rarely mentioned "God" at all. I still prefer to see it that Jesus was not God, but God allowed him to perform miracles with permission.

Again, faith differences, though. I think the Jesus = God is a major difference that the Romans and the translators can be blamed for. I think in order to truly understand what Jesus was meaning to say, you would need to read the Hebrew version itself, since the translations were a bit odd (after all, they mention Mohammed in the Hebrew version of the Bible, but they literally translated his name into "the Praised One" or something like that. Who knows what else might have been changed without Christians realizing it).

Or maybe Jesus was God, but I personally don't believe so. I won't try to convince a Christian otherwise, though, since that wouldn't be very nice and it'd be disrespectful :|

[Edit] Reading Philippians 2:6 makes me shudder. I guess you can assume why. Nothing is equal to God, nei' a creation, nei' Jesus himself. A creation cannot amount to its Creator. Obviously a Christian would say "but Jesus wasn't a creation; Jesus was God", but I beg to differ.

Actually, Philippians 2:6 is a great example for the broadness of translations. Lookie:

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Which means to say that Jesus in nature was as benevolent as God (but not God), and that equality with God is infeasable.

Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

Which means Jesus = God, and that he shouldn't brag about being equal.

Totally different meanings, yet it is the same verse.

 

[Rich Boy Rob]

I'm an Atheist, and I do believe that I've been one for as long as I can remember. I was raised as a Muslim and I went along with it because that's what I was told I was, but I was never religious nor did I hold any true belief in god. It didn't seem right or fair to me to practice something I didn't believe in.

I'm just happy that my parents were open-minded enough to accept that when I told them that.

This is basically the same case as me, although it was the school that explained everything Christian...ly? not my parents, who as far as I know are basically Atheist. I'm glad it was only infant school that taught religion as fact rather than as an opinion which some people hold.