[Discussion] Adding Mega Evolutions

[LenSho]

Adding another button sounds too complicated, but how about adding an Item that activates Mega Evolution? Choosing it from the bag should be easier.

 

[venom12]

Or maybe with a key? Like F5? I think it would be nice.

 

[the__end]

I don't know about you, but I couldn't possibly find a space in the current battle screen to squeeze in a new button. Another major issue is that there are no sprites of the Mega forms to rip from the games - I don't want to include fan-made ones.

Talking about the battle screen, how about an update to that? I am sure you agree that the back sprites of the newer pokemon don't look nice like that. But fixing that is hard if we keep the position of the menu (fight, bag, pokemon & run) on the bottom that appears while in battle. Why do we restrain us to the screen limitation of the GBA anyway? Changing the screen size to something that fits the PC better is the first step to fix many problems that happens while adding stuff from newer generations. Battle screen, pokedex, storage box screen and many more would benefit from that and to be honest i don't know any reason why it should be kept like it is (512x384).

 

[Maruno]

A year and a half ago I increased the default screen size of Essentials from 480x320 (GBA) to 512x384 (DS). This involved the complete redesign of many screens (see the change log for version 6). That's a whole lot of work, which took me 3 months of being unusually active to do all by myself.

Obviously I could do it all again, but why would I? I don't particularly want to, because it already works and has what I consider to be good graphics. It's true that the Pokémon Storage is tight on space, and that there's no room for a Mega Evolution button in the battle's Fight menu, but they're about the only problems, and all by itself it's acceptable. I have no doubt that a larger screen size would help to make things look better, but I don't think there's any particular need to do so at the moment for what is only a kit that others can/will develop by themselves.

No one is restraining you to anything. Essentials just comes with default settings and graphics, and we know how many people are willing to replace the allegedly bad FRLG tilesets with their own incomplete HGSS- or BW-style ones. There's even an easy way to change the screen size, and some automatic adjustment to things (like the position of Pokémon in battle) based on the screen size to make things a little easier. All you have to do is to be willing to come up with screen designs for larger screens and implement them. The change log for Essentials version 6 even lists all the screens you need to consider, which is convenient.

I agree that the back sprites for Gen 5 Pokémon look terrible because of pixels. I never particularly wanted to add Gen 5 Pokémon in the first place, but I felt compelled to. I at least left in the better Gen 4 back sprites for the older Pokémon, rather than go for consistency.

If you have better ideas for the design of something, please do share. If you want to name some of those "many problems" you mentioned, please do so. In another thread (or in PM), though, because this is off-topic.

 

[Elaitenstile]

I don't know, but it can work on the basis on how Giratina's forme changes. It fits because it can happen in-game and it changes stats as well as an ability.

Making sprites, as you say, will be hard but I personally find them easy (you can constantly find me boasting about my own avatar, for instance) so if you guys would allow a collaboration I would be more than happy to sprite them. But for the sake of originality I don't think this is going to be an idea looked upon. I believe if this is added in Essentials, it should be placeholder sprites which can only be changed to an actual sprite if we want them to. (Another thing many have said is that there are sprites on the Pokédex screen, but I wonder how far this is true)

Since I'm a dunce while it comes to RGSS scripting, I may not know much but all that is there is that this should be listed as a "separate attribute" of Pokémon, if you get what I mean.

Stats will be changed as seen by MegaMewtwo's new found 200 Sp Atk Base Stat, so I see no harm in implementing this as this can affect gameplay a lot.

 

[zingzags]

From what I heard the mega evolution's are only temporary, and it can only happen in battle. It is easy to make the form changes, and have it come back to normal. The only real issue is the sprites.

 

[FL]

You really can't use Shadow Pokémon as an excuse, because they were in Essentials before I took over. Obviously I'm not going to remove them, because why should I, but them being included in Essentials simply cannot be used as a measure of what kinds of features I would deem as "essential enough" to be added.

Not to mention that I don't solely add "essential" things anyway. I do what I want. In the case of the Unown (Tile) mini-game (and the Slot Machine and Mining mini-games which I also made), I made them because I wanted to make them, because I enjoyed them. I probably would have made them even if I wasn't the leader of Essentials; I just wouldn't have been able to add them directly to Essentials and would instead have posted the scripts as a resource.

You basically explained my post.

A important note: For a independent Essentials script developers a plug and play script minigame is very easier to do than a (relativelly) big change that involve battle system, not only for the user to install, but for the dev to explain how to install. And the dev needs to support the script and making it compatible with Essentials future versions.

Maybe I should weigh in at this point, now that the games have been released.

Mega evolutions can be treated as simple form changes. Stats, abilities and types are all things that can be changed between forms already. There's nothing about the Pokémon themselves that needs any serious work on in order to implement Mega forms.

The parts that would require some work are the technical aspects. These include a button which causes a Mega evolution (which only appears when it's possible to do so, i.e. holding the required item and haven't already performed a Mega evolution this battle), and making sure they revert back at the end of a battle (or does the Mega form only last while it's out in battle, such that if it's switched out it'll return to normal even in the same battle?). Oh, and letting the AI perform Mega evolutions when appropriate. I don't anticipate these being hugely difficult to do, if you know what you're doing.

I don't know about you, but I couldn't possibly find a space in the current battle screen to squeeze in a new button. Another major issue is that there are no sprites of the Mega forms to rip from the games - I don't want to include fan-made ones.

Mega evolutions thus far only exist in one game (XY count as one game), and one instance does not a trend make. While I find it very unlikely that Game Freak would abandon the concept in future games (because when have they ever removed a Pokémon form?), by itself there's not enough to convince me to put any time into it. Plus I'm not that interested in the feature anyway.

And how about making SOME parts of scripts to provide support for the mega forms without including them? You did this for BW/BW2 forms before you added the Gen V pokémon data. Just don't put any sprite, button and even AI and stats, this will make add-on packs very easier to do.

I'm sure that the mega forms will be more requested and liked than the BW/BW2 forms. Tons of request will come.

From what I heard the mega evolution's are only temporary, and it can only happen in battle. It is easy to make the form changes, and have it come back to normal. The only real issue is the sprites.

There already SEVERAL ones in the web and will be more. Smogon sprite project has almost all, including backsprites and even some shiny forms. Sprites are only a time question.

The point is that Maruno doesn't like to include unofficial sprites. Sooner or later custom sprites should be used or Essentials pokémon rooster will freeze at Gen V.


PS: Maruno, don't feel forced to do anything, You help us a lot already, I'm only points ways to please the users with Essentials.

 

[zingzags]

There already SEVERAL ones in the web and will be more. Smogon sprite project has almost all, including backsprites and even some shiny forms. Sprites are only a time question.

The point is that Maruno doesn't like to include unofficial sprites. Sooner or later custom sprites should be used or Essentials pokémon rooster will freeze at Gen V.


PS: Maruno, don't feel forced to do anything, You help us a lot already, I'm only points ways to please the users with Essentials.

I did not know about the project, and all I said is that it is easy to add. Not that he should do it, Maruno already turned the community around.

 

[Maruno]

A important note: For a independent Essentials script developers a plug and play script minigame is very easier to do than a (relativelly) big change that involve battle system, not only for the user to install, but for the dev to explain how to install. And the dev needs to support the script and making it compatible with Essentials future versions.

And how about making SOME parts of scripts to provide support for the mega forms without including them? You did this for BW/BW2 forms before you added the Gen V pokémon data. Just don't put any sprite, button and even AI and stats, this will make add-on packs very easier to do.

This is a good point. The mechanism for transforming a Pokémon into its Mega form is quite an integrated part of the battle system, so it would be better if it was inherently supported rather than be a poorly-documented add-on. Indeed, Essentials itself doesn't have to use this feature even if it does include it.

There's the button (which in addition to graphics requires its own variables that decide whether its usable and is to be used), the action itself (a new event in the round, occurring at some point in a round), turning the Pokémon back at the end of a battle (because apparently it stays Mega even if it faints or is switched out, against all logic), an icon in the data box to indicate Mega-ness, and AI to let the computer use Mega forms (even if it just says "always and immediately"). Then there's "multiple form" code which is used to decide if said form is a Mega form, and what its characteristics are. As far as I know, that's everything to it.

I don't know all the mechanics yet. For example, does the Mega evolution event happen just before the user makes their move (and after any quicker Pokémon make their moves), or does it happen before any moves are made (but after item use/fleeing/switching, or potentially before any of these)?

I'm having a think about it.

 

[Luka S.J.]

I don't know all the mechanics yet. For example, does the Mega evolution event happen just before the user makes their move (and after any quicker Pokémon make their moves), or does it happen before any moves are made (but after item use/fleeing/switching, or potentially before any of these)?

I'm having a think about it.

For Mega Evolutions, the certain Pokemon need's to be holding its Mega Stone, you need the Mega Ring+Key Stone (key items), and that's all. In the move selection screen you have the option to Mega Evolve your Pokemon. You choose the "Mega Evolution" command, and a move. Your Pokemon will both Mega Evolve and use the move in the same turn. Only one Mega Evolution is allowed per battle, and like you said, the Pokemon stays Mega Evolved all the way until the battle ends.

I'm not really happy with those mechanics though. They said that Mega Evolution could happen when the bond between the Pokemon and its Trainer is strong (as evident in Pokemon Origins). So, I think the Mega Evolution should need an adjustment.

Hypothetically speaking, if I was still working on Blue Chrome ;), my requirements for Mega Evolution would be:
* Pokemon cannot hold any items
* You must have Mega Ring+Key Stone key items
* You need max friendship/happiness with your Pokemon.
I don't see a point in all these +nite stones that the Pokemon must be holding. If it is not allowed to hold items as the Mega Evolution itself is a big boost, then just don't give it any items to hold.

Regarding the mechanics themselves. I don't think it's that complicated to do, honestly. The hardest part would be getting the graphical (perhaps audio) resources. You'd need the right front/back sprites, plus some sort of visual animation coded in for the Mega Evolution. Then the obvious problem of cramming another button into the UI. For the Pokemon.class, instead of making Mega Evolution just another form, you can apply the form changing mechanisms to a new variable of pokemon.mega=true/false. This way, everything (including the previous form of the Pokemon if it had one [for future references]), would be easily reverted to at the end of the battle, as the Mega Evolution would just be an internal switch. So you can have the stats change depending on that Mega Evolution switch, which only gets toggled within the battle system.

 

[IceGod64]

With all of this said, if I were to weigh in my opinion, I'd say that at least having support for a mega evolution would be a worthwhile addition; I heard some talk earlier in the thread that no one would use this feature, but I honestly think it's more like no one's going to add it if it's not already available because it would be difficult to script.

Also, this:

The point is that Maruno doesn't like to include unofficial sprites. Sooner or later custom sprites should be used or Essentials pokémon rooster will freeze at Gen V.

It's really getting t a point where we just plain won't have sprites to use anymore. Eventually we're going to be so far behind if we just leave out Gen 6+.

 

[Maruno]

When exactly within a battle round does the Mega Evolution event take place? A round proceeds in the following order:

• The player uses items.
• The opponent uses items.
• Pokémon switch out (Pursuit is used before this if applicable).
• Wild Pokémon flee from battle.
• The quickest Pokémon uses their move (if they have one).
• The next quickest Pokémon uses their move (if they have one).
• [and so on for additional Pokémon (double battles)]
• End of round effects

Between which two bullet points should "Pokémon Mega Evolve" be inserted? I've asked this a couple of times and no one has said anything.

Also, can Mega Stones be stolen/dropped, or do they behave like Plates being held by an Arceus (i.e. there's no way to remove it from the holder)? I imagine the latter, but I have no means to test this.

How about Transform? I assumed it would copy the Mega form, but then I wondered if Game Freak would want to make an exception to make Mega Evolution more special. Again, I can't test this.

For the Pokemon.class, instead of making Mega Evolution just another form, you can apply the form changing mechanisms to a new variable of pokemon.mega=true/false. This way, everything (including the previous form of the Pokemon if it had one [for future references]), would be easily reverted to at the end of the battle, as the Mega Evolution would just be an internal switch. So you can have the stats change depending on that Mega Evolution switch, which only gets toggled within the battle system.

Nah, using forms for Megas is the easier option, because it already exists. You just need to know which form numbers are linked by Mega Evolution. For example, Unown has 28 forms, with Unown E being form 4. You can therefore define Mega Unown E to be form 4+28=32. This information would need to be manually defined, since some Pokémon with multiple forms don't define them in pokemon.txt (which only lists the forms that appear in the Pokédex), but that's no problem at all.

It's slightly more tricky for Pokémon which would be able to change forms during battle. You'd need to increment/decrement the form number rather than setting it to a specific value, but that's not overly difficult. Anyway, no existing Pokémon which can Mega Evolve has more than one form, let alone is able to change it during battle, so I wouldn't bother with that aspect anyway.

 

[joeyhugg]

I think it's in-between "Opponent uses items" and "Pokemon switch out", but I'm probably wrong. It occurs before moves and after items, I know that. Also, transform is a really good question. I'll have to test that out one day (not anytime soon, however).

 

[FL]

It's slightly more tricky for Pokémon which would be able to change forms during battle. You'd need to increment/decrement the form number rather than setting it to a specific value, but that's not overly difficult. Anyway, no existing Pokémon which can Mega Evolve has more than one form, let alone is able to change it during battle, so I wouldn't bother with that aspect anyway.

YET. As far as I know, no one succeed to hack X and Y, so probably there more event pokémon and mega evolutions (like Genesect at BW).

Mega Stones, like Mail, the Griseous Orb when held by Giratina and Plates when held by a Pokémon with Multitype, cannot be taken via Thief and Covet, causes Trick and Switcheroo to fail if used on or by the holder, and causes Fling and Bestow to fail if used by the holder. Embargo and Magic Room also cannot prevent the use of Mega Stones to Mega Evolve Pokémon. Mega Stones are not consumed upon use.

About the orders:

Mega Evolution has a Speed Priority beyond Stage 5, and will always occur at the start of battle before anyone attacks or switches. However, due to this, any changes in the Speed Priority brought by a new ability, such as Banette mega evolving and gaining the ability Prankster, are not factored in within the turn of Mega Evolution but will be in all subsequent turns

Also, in online battles and the Battle Maison, the player's opponent gets to move first during the turn the player's Pokémon Mega Evolves.

 

[pokehackster]

Wow I come back from my long disappearance to find people so concerned over this. First off, Maruno if you do decide to do something along the lines of changing the screen size you might be able to go with the 3ds xl size. Second Mega evolutions are more than likely a temporary fix to the otherwise "creators blocked" Gamefreak. Seriously we know a couple things for certain from the news here recently, there won't be black and white Kyurem in X and Y (because you cant transfer items between BW & BW2 to XY) so yes they have removed forms (sorry had to Maruno), and that mega evolution is not as big as its been made out to be. Honestly I would venture to guess that the mega evolutions are just a gimmick this time around. So I'm with Maruno on this one guys the mega evolutions should probably be implemented as forms, but as far as changing the entire system around it there's almost no point.

Side note: to all of you guys complaining about shadow pokemon.... stop they add a unique thing to the game, and honestly it's something game freak could really go back to since they have essentially rehashed a lot of the design concepts from Colosseum and XD Gale of Darkness in X and Y.

Edit: also I plan on trying to turn some of the sugimori artwork into sprites if at all possible if Kyle-Dove doesn't hurry up with his, but I'm attrocious on back sprites so I'd honestly see about asking him since he's the Spriting authority.

 

[Maruno]

Second Mega evolutions are more than likely a temporary fix to the otherwise "creators blocked" Gamefreak. Seriously we know a couple things for certain from the news here recently, there won't be black and white Kyurem in X and Y (because you cant transfer items between BW & BW2 to XY) so yes they have removed forms (sorry had to Maruno), and that mega evolution is not as big as its been made out to be. Honestly I would venture to guess that the mega evolutions are just a gimmick this time around.

Oh, they're certainly nothing more than a gimmick, just like walking with Pokémon is. Doesn't mean people won't make threads like this asking how to add such a feature.

You imply that the DNA Splicers won't be available in XY via an event or Mystery Gift or something. Of course they will be.

 

[Worldslayer608]

They are... interesting. I really do not know enough about Mega Evolutions.

The appeal to me is simply that people want to use them. However useless of a feature it is, it does not change that and if people want to use it, that has it's own appeal to me as a designer.

Are these things stronger than normal? I think questions like that are really what determine how useful the feature could potentially be. It lets you create harder than normal enemies assuming you can create a scenario in which Mega Evolution is something you have to work to achieve.

It seems to me like a base implementation into PE should be there at least to give developers something that is there for them to work with and let their creative juices flow.

The feature seems less than well designed on Nintendo's part and preliminary more than anything.

 

[FL]

Oh, they're certainly nothing more than a gimmick, just like walking with Pokémon is. Doesn't mean people won't make threads like this asking how to add such a feature.

I disagree, pokémon following is just aesthetic. Mega forms, on other hand, it's a relevant change to battle system.

The ones who doesn't like these mega forms aren't forced to use these forms at their games.



Anyway, I make some concepts for the new "choose a move" screen (one is attached). I just suggest to decrease the size of move boxes and use the extra space for a mega form button. I used the space between the moves and the type/PP box. Maybe this button fill better at left of moves. I, particularly, prefer to put this button at the first screen (the one with Fight/Pokémon/Bag/Run) above the box with the pokémon name, but this will be non-canon with the XY, where this button is in the move selection.

 

[Maruno]

I disagree, pokémon following is just aesthetic. Mega forms, on other hand, it's a relevant change to battle system.

Aesthetics has nothing to do with a feature being a gimmick.

Anyway, I make some concepts for the new "choose a move" screen (one is attached). I just suggest to decrease the size of move boxes and use the extra space for a mega form button. I used the space between the moves and the type/PP box. Maybe this button fill better at left of moves. I, particularly, prefer to put this button at the first screen (the one with Fight/Pokémon/Bag/Run) above the box with the pokémon name, but this will be non-canon with the XY, where this button is in the move selection.

Then you have moves like Quick Attack whose names don't fit into the move box. I believe Aromatherapy is the widest move name (which depends on the width of each letter), although when I was designing the HGSS-style Fight menu I left some extra space just in case (and because cramming in a barely-fitting name doesn't look good).

You can only Mega Evolve your Pokémon if you're using a move. It makes sense to put the button in the Fight menu and not the command menu.

 

[Worldslayer608]

Why not just next to the HP bar?

Or even have it ask after selecting your move? so it is not so much taking up space as it is taking up time.