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[Theory] But if Mew was the first pokemon, and Arceus created all Pokemon...

Necrum

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  • We all know that the whole Arceus creation story is explicitly stated in canon to be a myth, right?
    All three Creation Trio Pokemon are shown to have exactly the abilities that are given to them in their respective myths, so I don't think that there is any less chance that Arceus could have created these Pokemon. He is even shown to be capable of doing so again. As mentioned earlier at Sinjoh ruins Arceus can create another of the Creation Trio. However, my thought on the limit of one is the fact that Arceus is probably not as strong as it was when it made all three of them before. And myth doesn't inherently mean fictional, I think that's a common misconception about the word.
     

    Sopheria

    響け〜 響け!
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  • We all know that the whole Arceus creation story is explicitly stated in canon to be a myth, right?

    Yep. Said story also says that Arceus has a thousand arms so...I've always taken it with a grain of salt xD

    Not only that, but Mew being the first is stated to be a scientific hypothesis. Granted, I take scientific conjecture to hold a bit more weight than myths and folklore, but really neither of these is a sure thing in the Pokemon world.
     
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  • I've always figured Arceus came first, and then created many of the legendary Pokemon to control space, time, the sky, the oceans, etc., and then created Mew. While I'm sure it took millions of years, I believe that many of the Mew started turning into new species of Pokemon. But, since all Pokemon contain a bit of Mew's DNA (and because Mew contains a bit of Arceus'), it has the ability to transform into any other Pokemon that it sees if it so wishes.
    That has always been my opinion on the matter, as long as both the myths were confirmed to be true. Again, just like our own world, I'm sure there are plenty of theories and hypotheses as to the exact course of events leading to the present, but we're kind of limited to what we know about the Pokemon world at this point. Who knows, maybe there are some people there that believe that the Helix Fossil truly is a deity, but we just don't know about it since it hasn't been presented to us yet.
     

    JP

    wut?
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    I was always under the impression that Arceus was the first. It created (most) Legendaries and then went on to create Mew, whom became the precursor of all other Pokemon.

    That theory, to me, makes the most sense. Like someone else mentioned, some of these stories are only known as myths to some of the regions, not all. The best we can do, in terms of viewers, is make sense of it all with all the pieces we've got.
     

    Elements1

    Meh
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  • Yep. Said story also says that Arceus has a thousand arms so...I've always taken it with a grain of salt xD

    Not only that, but Mew being the first is stated to be a scientific hypothesis. Granted, I take scientific conjecture to hold a bit more weight than myths and folklore, but really neither of these is a sure thing in the Pokemon world.

    I think Arceus arms are the unown, helping create the world as well as the some pokemon.
     

    GhastlyGastly

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  • The variety does not matter, have you seen the one pokemon movie with Entei kidnapping ash's mom and when Entei was creating the unown were there helping him, thousands of unown.

    Actually, the Unown created Entei: Unown is the ONLY Pokémon which seems in the canon to have creative powers. Something like turning dreams into reality using their psychic powers: however, since "psychic" by definition is dealing with the mind, it's just as believable that all this "creating" being done is actually hallucinations of some kind.

    Either way, there's no indisputable evidence that Arceus has any clear role whatsoever in all of this. The mythology may have a kernel of truth, but it's more believable to me that Unown is that kernel of truth in reality: the only thread of connection Arceus seems to have anywhere here is that it may be a trans-dimensional Pokémon, and thus has a trait in common with Unown (which also inhabit an alternate dimension).

    On the variety/numbers thing: I was merely noting that it seems a bit of a stretch to say that Unown were the "thousand arms". Yes, there are thousands of Unown, but only 30 varieties: it seems like the number 1000 is rather specific, despite Unown having no connection at all to that number.
     

    GhastlyGastly

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  • https://www.rigelatin.net/copycat/theoryarceus.html

    Here is a link to a theory explanation that i really like,it's a bit lengthy but its worth reading

    Not too different from other hypotheses I've heard; I simply can't accept it. People place far too much significance on the Sinnoh region's mythology, I think. It is mythology after all: and it's quite clear to me that the rather irreligious guys over at Game Freak intentionally based Pokémon mythology on real mythology: namely, that they're probably 99% made-up fairy tales with a kernel of truth somewhere deep down.

    And incidentally, as for where I think Mew fits into all this, I have a rather lengthy discussion of it on my blog, Pokémonography: which there's a link for in my signature, if anyone's interested. (The article is the first post I made on the blog, so just scroll to the bottom.)
     

    Elements1

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  • Not too different from other hypotheses I've heard; I simply can't accept it. People place far too much significance on the Sinnoh region's mythology, I think. It is mythology after all: and it's quite clear to me that the rather irreligious guys over at Game Freak intentionally based Pokémon mythology on real mythology: namely, that they're probably 99% made-up fairy tales with a kernel of truth somewhere deep down.

    And incidentally, as for where I think Mew fits into all this, I have a rather lengthy discussion of it on my blog, Pokémonography: which there's a link for in my signature, if anyone's interested. (The article is the first post I made on the blog, so just scroll to the bottom.)

    I liked your post because of your blog, though I disagree with your theory. First the theory the Arceus created by himself is not valid, the theory that unown helped Arceus is what I think. Here is a great theory by Tao Dragon that I'm with
    Spoiler:


    Nice blog btw!!
     

    GhastlyGastly

    Crazy Pokémon Lady
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  • I liked your post because of your blog, though I disagree with your theory. First the theory the Arceus created by himself is not valid, the theory that unown helped Arceus is what I think. Here is a great theory by Tao Dragon that I'm with
    Spoiler:


    Nice blog btw!!

    Thank you :pink_smile:

    I disagree with yours/Tao Dragon's hypothesis, on the simple basis of over-speculation. Not enough actual evidence, too much speculation for me. But to each their own.
     

    GhastlyGastly

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  • Personally my self I agree that there is much speculation in my theory and that is what I do. I speculate and suggest how things might have happened. I don't just say that I thought this up found a few patches of evidence and there for this is how it is. I'm the speculative type yes. But don't say outflat that I don't have evidence to back up my theory because there are many sources including the anime, the movies and in-game events that made me conjecture that things happen that way.

    For example there is the movie spell of the unown where it has been explicitly told and seen that the Unown are able to create using configurations and patterns to create realities using their psychic powers in conjuction. They have been shown to lose control over what they create when they lose stability and break havoc. Of course those were a few Unowns in the movie but Unowns are known to be numerous as seen in the movie of darkrai. So imagine that happening in a grander scale. Chaos happens.

    Now you might be right that i don't have definative evidence to back up that the Unown made Arceus. That is a what if scenario. It ocurred to me that it might be that way judging from the shinjo event where Arceus summoned the Unown to create one of the creation trio. Now imagine that happening when there was chaos. The birth of time and space would give order to that chaos. Now since in Sinnoh mythology it has been said that Arceus was born in chaos what exactly caused that chaos? And why does Arceus needs the Unown's help if it can create by itself? Or can it? There is no details on when and how the Unown came to be. It is true that Arceus could have created the Unown but then, that means that it created first the Unown to then create Dialga and Palkia to establish a reality? Where does it say that in the Sinnoh myth? And why are the Unown helping in the creation process of Arceus? I would also like for you to note that the person in charge of the investigations in ruins of alphs hints that Arceus and the Unown are connected somehow. Again where did all that chaos come from then? Wouldn't it be more logical if the Unown where generating to much energy and created chaos and from that energy a condensation ocurred resulting in Arceus? It already happened in a movie only that the quantity of Unown were not enough to create all possible realities that would crash when they lose control resulting in chaos and there for Arceus to be generated. They created pokemon in the realities they generated so why can't they do the same with Arceus? Again take the number of Unowns in consideration. Probably if you disrrupt the patterns that the Unown are making in their dimension would cause disrruptions in reality. And if all Unown where to be separated from each other reality would cease to be including Arceus like what happened to the pokemon in the Unown movie. Since the Unown were tapping in Molly's consciousness the realities generated where the things that were in her dreams. Arceus works in a similar way to Molly organizing the Unown to establish a reality using their conjoined powers to create the creation trio and possibly spirit. After that it has been stated in the movies and in game what functions do the creation trio make so I take that as my evidence.

    Another thing that can be questioned is if Arceus created other legendaries other than the crearion trio. Since it has been said that Arceus created the universe it may have created other legendaries on purpose or let the energies it unleashed onto the universe to randomly form other pokemon meaning they formed by nature which also derives from Arceus power. So directly or indirectly Arceus must have influenced in the creation of the first life forms whom will inhabit the universe. It is possible that from there the rest of the work has been done by those life forms like the likes of Mew.

    So again you don't have to believe a word i'm saying just don't say I don't have actual evidence when only two points in my theory are questionable:

    1.Unown's pychic power generated Arceus

    2. Arceus created other legendaries outside the two set of trio it's in charge of.

    Which I brought various points in the above paragraphs on how those might be.

    I checked today and yes there are people who have similar theories to me but they differ. The Shinjo event is what makes us conclude that there is a connection between Arceus and the Unown and the fact that they appear in the outter dimensions in darkrai movie where palkia and dialga started fighting which is outside the universe where Unown would be chaining reality. However Arceus created the universe so why would Unown be chaining realities? Again from the 3rd movie spell of the Unown. They create realities. Just hear profesor oaks quotes and molly's dad's research. I'm just saying that it might be a possibility that the creation process was caused by both Arceus and the Unown. Where the Unown use Arceus as a medium to organize and stabilize all of the realities they generate.

    I can see evidence that Unown may have had some hand in the creation of Pokémon (possibly: there frankly isn't any solid evidence there, other than the fact that it seems they would have been capable of doing it), though I still have to say that all this Sinnoh mythology with Arceus creating other legendaries and such just isn't compelling to me. The evidence of Arceus creating anything is debatable, as are the powers of the other Sinnoh mythic figures (Dialga, Palkia, etc.).

    Unown is the only known Pokémon which canon sources (canon meaning the authoritative sources: i.e., the main series games, and to a lesser extent the manga and anime, and to an even lesser extent the movies (except possibly the first four)) seem to indicate are capable of creative powers. I do think all of the things labeled very clearly as mythology in the canon are labeled that way for a reason. I simply can't rationalize any history of the Pokémon world that involves anything terribly fantastical/magical/mythical; that's simply the way my brain works, haha :pink_laugh:
     

    GhastlyGastly

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  • Interesting hypothesis. It is innovative however there is one thing, actually, two things that I question about your hypothesis.

    1) How is it that the egg groups will merge to end in Mew? if there are no known cases of hybridization between species of pokemon. If two pokemon of different species that are in the same egg group procreate the offspring will always result in the species of the mother while inheriting the moves from the father that the offspring's species are able to learn according to what it is biologically possible for that species to learn. I'm very interested to know how you will answer this question.

    Note: Ditto is only able to procreate the other species not hybridize.

    Essentially the concept is about very gradual hybridization. Imagine, if you will, any given Pokémon mating with Ditto, and the offspring thereof: Ditto is capable of reorganizing its cellular structure at will (I propose this is only possible if, like Mew, its cells contain the DNA of literally all Pokémon), and it follows that its cells would (in some form at least) be passed on to future generations. Excessive use of Ditto in Pokémon breeding would presumably lead to Pokémon (after many, many generations) having increased quantities of Ditto/Mew DNA. After all: the offspring of a Ditto isn't merely a clone of the other parent, therefore some new genetic material has been added by Ditto (this is likely especially true in cases where Ditto acts as the mother).

    I actually elaborate more on my blog, Pokémonography, than I do in my original article here on PokéCommunity. There's an article on my Mew theory, as well as on my theory on Pokémon reproduction.


    2) For Ditto and Mew to exist as you explained one of them must have existed without the others help. Ditto cannot give birth to Mew for Mew to time travel and give birth to Ditto. Because if you look at it Mew didn't exist in the first place according to your hypothesis it is the common descendant of all species. They must have come into existence on their own. Meaning in a way Ditto must have come to existence on its own to give birth to Mew. Then probably Mew being able to time travel met Ditto which already was. The way you mentioned it is paradoxical and doesn't make sense. It doesn't seem like a plausable hypothesis to me nor likely that it happened. However if there is something to clarify do tell.

    Also another thing how did Mew acquired the powers of pokemon like Celebi and Dialga? If those pokemon cannot breed. There for how did it time traveled? And how was it possible for Ditto to pass on all of those traits to Mew. Last time I checked Ditto was only able to make an offspring of the species it procreates with. It does not retain the genes of that species in it's body. There for it cannot take from here an here to make an hybrid on it's own.

    I elaborate a bit on this point on my blog: in a nutshell, I theorize that perhaps Ditto and Mew represent two sides of a temporal loop. Meaning that one cannot exist without the other; their existences are intrinsically linked, and are contingent on the existence of the other. They are, in a sense, the same being. A temporal loop, as confusing as it is, is not a paradox (though it can appear to be one at first glance).

    Also, I believe that "legendary" Pokémon do, in fact, breed: that much is clear by their continued existence (I mean, it's simply illogical to presume that only a single individual of those species exists in the world). The simply don't breed in captivity: non-legendary species such as Nidoqueen share a similar behavior. Many real-world species, such as echidnas and pandas, display radically different mating behaviors in captivity than in the wild (namely: a complete refusal to breed).
     

    GhastlyGastly

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  • Well thought. Interesting enough. I'll give you a point where legendaries can breed. There is also evidence of that in the anime (Lugia and child).

    Hm. So what you are saying is that Ditto descendants inherit genetic material from Ditt

    Yes, I think it can be safely assumed.
     

    GhastlyGastly

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  • Well thought. Interesting enough. I'll give you a point where legendaries can breed. There is also evidence of that in the anime (Lugia and child).

    Hm. So what you are saying is that Ditto descendants inherit genetic material from Ditto who is capable of mating with any pokemon and transform and each succesive generation becomes closer to Ditto in its ability to reproduce with any pokemon and transform... Meaning they can mate with each other and also be able to take on different forms while being of one given species. Those species will then become more common mating with the species that have not mated with Ditto and other that already have until Mew results. That answers the merging of egg groups. Eventually it doesn't matter what species you are you can take on the another species form. This will make those species closer to what Mew is. Eventually all species will culminate into Mew. The master race. The combination of all species through Ditto. Could you please explain how Mew fragmented again into other species and how does time travel has to do with that. This is the confusing part because ok we have the merging of species. Now what was that point in time where it time traveled to fragment into all other species?

    That's very close to what my theory is, yes. As for how Mew fragments into other species, I don't think that's what happened. All we're told definitively in canon about Mew is that it contains the genetic material of every species of Pokémon: experts then speculate that perhaps it is the common ancestor of all Pokémon. I don't believe that it is. I think that the evidence is more conducive to a common descendant. So Mew is essentially a hybrid super-Pokémon in some sense, rather than an ancestral origin Pokémon; that's my theory anyway. So Mew "re-fragmenting" isn't part of my concept.
     

    GhastlyGastly

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  • Essentially, yes, my theory is just a explanation for Mew's existence, pieced together from the clues the canon has given us. And say what you will about temporal loops, they're perfectly logically consistent and possible within quantum mechanics and advanced physics. You basically answered your own question with the reference to multiple universes and such; basically, not precisely. A temporal loop in this instance would require for Mew and Ditto to have come into existence simultaneously, in different times; since Mew has the ability to traverse time at will however, it technically exists (or has the quantum potential to exist) at any point in time.

    It's rather complicated, but essentially, Mew being timeless is not equivalent to being eternal: it exists throughout the history (past, present, and future) of the Pokémon universe, however that does not mean that it lacks causality. However, though Mew is timeless and therefore its relation to time as we understand it is very radically different from what we experience, it remains perfectly reasonable to suggest that its causality can be traced to a point within the temporal dimension as we know it. It's not easy for a human mind to comprehend, but it is physically possible for something which is timeless to have originated as something which was within time. And from there it's entirely possible that it could have essentially "created itself" (i.e., ensured its own existence by forming a temporal loop, rather than perhaps diverging and passing into a parallel dimension or universe). It's actually a fairly simple and elegant concept, hard as it is to actually grasp. A cyclical causality: Mew exists and travels through time to be scientifically studied so that Ditto could be created so that it could cause Pokémon to hybridize so that Mew could exist and travel through time, etc., etc.

    Your quandary essentially seems to be with the problem of "which came first": however the concept of a temporal loop/cyclical causality eliminates the need to answer such as question, since both "ends" of the loop (Mew and Ditto) exist simultaneously. Hope that clarifies a bit, but again, it's a very complex concept. However, it is likely one that the folks at Game Freak may have actually come up with: there are hints related to time, and to cyclical time, throughout the canon. Just because the concept is rather convoluted and difficult to understand doesn't mean that they may not have intended it that way: frankly, the concept's complexity only gives them a reason not to describe it in great detail (would you really expect children to understand something as complicated as this? they were the original intended audience, after all). Pokémon includes many complex subjects (war, reproduction, technology, etc.), but for many of them, they keep the details to a minimum in the canon: presumably for the sake of the kids, who might shy away from a game that included lengthy tracts of complicated or educational material.

    Anyway, you know my theory. I don't think it's too complicated to be true, and I think the evidence ultimately leads in that direction. But to each their own of course.
     

    GhastlyGastly

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  • I guess it's better to leave this argument where it is. I had fun discussing with you. I hope I didn't cause any hard feeling at the other side. I want you to know that you have an unique way of thinking and you have the ability to reach other places where others cannot think of.

    Personally I still believe that Arceus through the Unown created the three creation dragons and the three spirits who in turn made physical and spiritual maifestations take place. I believe that Arceus may have had some hand with the creation of certain legendaries including Mew and that Mew helped create the more common pokemon. That is my interpretation of what is cannonically suggested.

    Your ways and mine of thinking work differently so we rationalize differently. So it's better to leave it here since we don't seem to convince each other.

    Thank you :pink_smile: Yes, I think this debate has essentially reached an impasse. We don't necessarily have to agree anyway; I think Game Freak wants the fans to interpret their canon in different ways, frankly. They've left it intentionally vague. To each their own.
     
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