The Men's Rights Movement

[Kanzler]

There is often a lot of editorialism around when we discuss these hot-button topics. Language is not used in a way that reflects reality but to meet the rhetorical requirements of the author.

 

[Oryx]

I pretty much agree with you on this, but:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but in America it is illegal for employers to pay someone less because of gender, yes?

It is technically, but often companies put clauses in their contracts saying employees can't discuss who's getting what salary (even though it's illegal to prohibit that, they just hope no one notices and take it out if they do), thus making it impossible to even determine if there's a discrepancy. Then if it is discussed, the two people are never exactly identical which means even if it's an actual gender discrepancy the boss can make up a reason that it's not the case and there's no real way to prove it, such as when the other person came in or some random skill that's not necessary to job that the man has or a better culture fit or etc. etc.

Then even if employers swear they are doing all they can to treat women the same, there are always unconscious biases; study after study has shown unconscious biases against women, from the classroom (when the gender split is 50/50 talking girls are said to be dominating the conversation, even by teachers) to the interview process (when women negotiate they are seen in a negative light while men are seen in a positive light), so even if an employer believes they're being fair and equal all that means is if you point out an unconscious bias they'll get defensive and claim it doesn't exist. I don't know if you've ever tried to explain to someone that they possess an unconscious bias; it's near impossible.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

It is technically, but often companies put clauses in their contracts saying employees can't discuss who's getting what salary (even though it's illegal to prohibit that, they just hope no one notices and take it out if they do), thus making it impossible to even determine if there's a discrepancy. Then if it is discussed, the two people are never exactly identical which means even if it's an actual gender discrepancy the boss can make up a reason that it's not the case and there's no real way to prove it, such as when the other person came in or some random skill that's not necessary to job that the man has or a better culture fit or etc. etc.

Then even if employers swear they are doing all they can to treat women the same, there are always unconscious biases; study after study has shown unconscious biases against women, from the classroom (when the gender split is 50/50 talking girls are said to be dominating the conversation, even by teachers) to the interview process (when women negotiate they are seen in a negative light while men are seen in a positive light), so even if an employer believes they're being fair and equal all that means is if you point out an unconscious bias they'll get defensive and claim it doesn't exist. I don't know if you've ever tried to explain to someone that they possess an unconscious bias; it's near impossible.

Besides what he said, have you ever heard of the business term 'glass ceiling'? Some employers just don't see women progress high enough in a company's structure for their pay to be more than or equal to a male counterpart's elsewhere in the company at their level. And any salary discrepancy can be blamed on what the employer designates the value of the different positions the woman holds vs the one a male at a similar heigh in its infrastructure holds.

But that's getting a bit off topic ~ SO. I ask any active MRA's here, relative to a discussion I had with my sister the other day. The country's (United States) military, is undoubtedly very male dominated. For this reason, barracks, other structures, and mobile bases are primarily outfitted with mens restrooms alone, not both. Because of this, women, are currently not allowed to be part of submarine crews in the United States; because there are no women's lavatories onboard submarines, and for privacy and prevention of sexual harassment cases, the two cannot share a restroom. As MRA's, how do you view this, as an issue, merely a circumstance, or something else? And if you think there is anything to be done to better the situation, what.

 

[uoneko]

imo, feminism and men right's movements are just both separate ways of expressing equality between genders, but both focus on their own genders needs as priority [which makes sense]. there should just be one group expressing equality between genders, that helps everyone, not just men or just women.

 

[Belldandy]

There is such a thing as male privelege, unfortunately, as there is white privelege, etc.

I just think if we all focused as a group to even out odds and ends that we'd get somewhere. I'm a feminist of sorts - I don't believe it's fair that women are scared to go out after dusk because of predators, or that we should be so concerned that what we wear would attract undesirable attention (although I don't victim shame, it's at least a matter of self-respect to dress modestly), or that we should be rejected from jobs simply because of the prospect of pregnancy in the future - but then again, men have the issue of always being labelled as potential rapists or predators because the media hypes up issues. Female sexual assault and violence against women is a bigger issue than that against men (not to say that men aren't abused sexually, physically, emotionally, etc. but it isn't as often (I had a male friend who was raped at gunpoint, so no bias)) which is where the issues stem from; I myself was a victim of repeated sexual assault from a partner who used violence and death threats against me while being ten hours from any friends, family, etc. Luckily I managed to escape being stabbed (or being in the apartment the following day after police intervention, as he had climbed four stories and broken in), but a lot of women come out of those situations with psychological and physical scars. Again, these situations happen to men, too, but not as often, and men have a better, fighting chance against a woman than a woman does against a man. It's how nature intended, although for hunting and not beating one's own species to a pulp.

My father was a single parent often criticized because usually it's the woman who keeps the children. My mother didn't want anything to do with us, so my father raised us on minimum wage. Two of the kids weren't even biologically his, but our mother had abandoned us as toddlers and youths. I do not agree with this discrimination against men, or that just because the media always shows males as being pedophiles or bad parents that they necessarily are. I disagree that men do not have access to maternity leave should the woman be absent or wanting to continue in her career while the father stays at home. It would work nicely both ways if both genders had "either or" access to maternity leave, but as of now it's not a thing; it's a woman's thing, not a man's, to look after the kids, and that hurts both genders as well as equality overall.

I understand the concept of men demanding rights such as those listed above. I understand that not all men are predators, or violent, or psychopaths, or supremists, or pedophiles. The media doesn't help, but I can't say to stop showing it lest the issue we forgotten. It's really much more complicated. I still don't go out at night, though, nor do I intentionally speak to men or make small talk. At the end of the day, I still fear men, not for what's on TV (I don't even have TV, mind you) but because of what I've suffered and what I have seen my aunts suffer through and my friends suffer through. Basically every woman I know in my family and friendship circle has been a victim of at least physical abuse (and a handful have been victims of sexual assault by men in their youth i.e. my aunt was gangraped by older teens when she was thirteen because of having rejected certain advances from one of the perpetrator's younger siblings).

And then I read stories in India and worldwide where women have acid thrown in their faces for not marrying a man they do not want to marry, making them unrecognizable beyond compare. It's so shocking.

Women being equal to men and men being equal to women is the ideal. If we break it down and ignore the feminazis who are just over-the-top and missing the actual point of feminism (i.e. the "tata bikini" that's trending on Tumblr that makes women look naked outside), feminism is about self-respect, societal respect, equality and just not having to fear doing certain tasks because of either criticism, sexual assault or battery. If men don't have to fear those things on a constant basis, women shouldn't have to either. It's not fair that we need to be skeptical of men, and then get the backlash we do for rejecting men because of the skepticism many males have brought on their gender. A good first step is for men to start understanding that their gender does have an issue in the past and present with disrespect towards women, and rather than to be angry at women for adapting to those men's behaviours that they start by understanding and trying to squash the stereotype by setting a good example individually, while spreading that example through male friends.

It would help if men and women alike would interject when anyone makes rape jokes by saying it's "not cool" or when either gender objectifies eachother or the other that it be stated that it's not flattering but disrespectful. Men and women alike need to work towards a common goal together. Separating it really isn't going to achieve much imo.

I have a great deal of respect for my father. I wish others would respect him more rather than focusing on the idea that he was a man in what society deems a woman's shoes. I don't think that's right. Likewise, I don't think it's right that women be dubbed but childbearers in society and are criticized when they choose not to reproduce, or are shamed by people who victim blame rather than holding perpetrators accountable for their own actions. I have spoken to men who actually blame me for the sexual assault and battery I endured simply because I could've "left" or "walked away" or whatever. Rather than accepting the fact that a despicable psychopath happens to be a part of their gender, I'm somehow at fault, even though I was the only one working, paying the bills, lending money, etc. They don't even acknowledge the fact that the guy was psychotically intimidating and issued death threats everyday, or that he held a knife to me or threw me against walls, etc. The men I spoke to at the time saw me as the problem, but sometimes you can't just "walk away." I wanted to, but there was so much fear involved that you don't know what to do, and I'm still suffering psychologically for it.

That all aside,

the whole issue is extremely complicated and gives me a headache. Let's all just work to be better people for a better society where everyone can feel safe and homely and work for equal wages and have equal opportunities without backlash. Just make a big ol' humanitarian group and dissolve Men's Rights Movements and Feminist Movements and become a Human Rights Movements, because at the end it's equality for all even though it's a much larger issue for women's rights than for men's, but that's besides the point and by sharing ideas and collaborating, we might actually get somewhere.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

Has anyone posted this in here yet?



Shots fired, the struggle is real.

 

[Tek]

Has anyone posted this in here yet?



Shots fired, the struggle is real.

Most people I know can't/won't watch this through to the end. But I'm glad it exists because, in a general sense, this is what happens when a person forgets that the reason they were making themselves heard was to help others. Or, perhaps, this is what happens when someone is actually out for themselves but is parading under the Justice banner.

My biggest worry with both the men's rights movement and the renewed focus on women's rights is that the people who want true equality will allow the people who want power for themselves or their particular group to hijack the ship. Or, perhaps, that the power-hungry will outweigh the freedom fighters.

Wow, that sounds really doom and gloom.

 

[Silais]

I haven't bothered to read the entire conversation here simply because I have sensed it has degenerated rather quickly. From the looks of it, however, I'm guessing most of my points have already been outlined by someone else on this thread.

That being said, I don't understand the necessity for "men's rights" and "women's rights" aside from healthcare (male vs. female health needs, like prostate vs. uterus). Why do we need to split up the rights of our citizens based on our gender? Isn't the entire point of equality to give equality to both genders...equally? I don't understand how we can call a movement "men's rights" and expect it to seek equality for both genders. Calling it "men's rights" infers that it is seeking to improve the rights of men, not women. And to assume that by improving the rights of men that the rights of women would automatically improve is asinine. We can't give preference over one gender, or focus on one gender, and expect both genders to somehow benefit equally or at all from said preference. The same goes for women; if we give preference over women, how can we expect men to receive the same benefits?

Historically, men have had more rights than women, and that is simply a fact we need to accept. Men have had the opportunity to own property, land, and hold office for thousands of years; women have rarely experienced this in history, with the exception of a few scattered civilizations. That doesn't mean that man haven't suffered; men were often expected to go to war, to be the sole provider, to maintain a stoic personality despite emotional distress or discomfort. Both genders have had their fair share of injustice and difficulties.

All that being said, what I've noticed about these "rights" movements recently is the drawing of attention to petty social differences that make no real impact on the quality of life for people. What I mean by that is that most of our struggle as a human race has disappeared; we have cars, electricity, heating/cooling systems, and a myriad of technology that makes it so easy for us to engage in daily activities that would once have been laborious and difficult. We do not even have to get out of our vehicles to buy and eat a meal.

Yes, there are social injustices still present today; the poor still receive the short end of the stick on almost all fronts, and starvation, disease and physical/sexual abuse are still extremely common. Yet when I hear a feminist complain about how there aren't enough female characters in a popular TV show, it makes my head hurt. The same goes for men complaining about how there are too many women in the sport's world. There are so many other things to worry about; your source of entertainment should not be one of them. For goodness sake, we've turned into whiny children who need constant affirmation and attention. If we really wanted equal rights for all, we'd focus on issues that truly impact us on dramatic levels together, not as separate genders. But it's so easy for us as modern Americans to get wrapped up in our own righteous indignation that we forget what we're trying to accomplish in the first place. Or we never really had the intention of fixing the problem, only to complain and, again, receive attention.

My opinion on the men's rights movement? Poo. My opinion on the women's rights movement? Poo. My opinion on the human rights movement, on the equal rights movement? An overwhelming hell yes. And yes, the human rights movement and the men's/women's rights movements have become two very different animals.

 

[Alexander Nicholi]

There seems to be a lot of biased logic being thrown around in both directions here. In the end both the Men's Rights Movement and Feminism are a gigantic waste of time, since no matter how much MRAs think they're promoting equality or executing change they're still labelled in bias to the male gender, and no matter how much feminists think they're promoting change or showing equality they're still labelled in bias to the female gender. Both of them have honest activists in hope for equality and their resident nutjobs, so why bother with the differentiation to begin with? Both of them present a fallacious foundation for their claims; it seems to me that feminism has taken as the dominant of the two simply because women are the oppressed and it began first. Can't we all just get along and agree rights are irrespective of whether you have a dick or a pussy? Is it worth our time to further a divide like this that was the very problem we're trying to absolve?

 

[Oryx]

I haven't bothered to read the entire conversation here simply because I have sensed it has degenerated rather quickly. From the looks of it, however, I'm guessing most of my points have already been outlined by someone else on this thread.

That being said, I don't understand the necessity for "men's rights" and "women's rights" aside from healthcare (male vs. female health needs, like prostate vs. uterus). Why do we need to split up the rights of our citizens based on our gender? Isn't the entire point of equality to give equality to both genders...equally? I don't understand how we can call a movement "men's rights" and expect it to seek equality for both genders. Calling it "men's rights" infers that it is seeking to improve the rights of men, not women. And to assume that by improving the rights of men that the rights of women would automatically improve is asinine. We can't give preference over one gender, or focus on one gender, and expect both genders to somehow benefit equally or at all from said preference. The same goes for women; if we give preference over women, how can we expect men to receive the same benefits?

Historically, men have had more rights than women, and that is simply a fact we need to accept. Men have had the opportunity to own property, land, and hold office for thousands of years; women have rarely experienced this in history, with the exception of a few scattered civilizations. That doesn't mean that man haven't suffered; men were often expected to go to war, to be the sole provider, to maintain a stoic personality despite emotional distress or discomfort. Both genders have had their fair share of injustice and difficulties.

All that being said, what I've noticed about these "rights" movements recently is the drawing of attention to petty social differences that make no real impact on the quality of life for people. What I mean by that is that most of our struggle as a human race has disappeared; we have cars, electricity, heating/cooling systems, and a myriad of technology that makes it so easy for us to engage in daily activities that would once have been laborious and difficult. We do not even have to get out of our vehicles to buy and eat a meal.

Yes, there are social injustices still present today; the poor still receive the short end of the stick on almost all fronts, and starvation, disease and physical/sexual abuse are still extremely common. Yet when I hear a feminist complain about how there aren't enough female characters in a popular TV show, it makes my head hurt. The same goes for men complaining about how there are too many women in the sport's world. There are so many other things to worry about; your source of entertainment should not be one of them. For goodness sake, we've turned into whiny children who need constant affirmation and attention. If we really wanted equal rights for all, we'd focus on issues that truly impact us on dramatic levels together, not as separate genders. But it's so easy for us as modern Americans to get wrapped up in our own righteous indignation that we forget what we're trying to accomplish in the first place. Or we never really had the intention of fixing the problem, only to complain and, again, receive attention.

My opinion on the men's rights movement? Poo. My opinion on the women's rights movement? Poo. My opinion on the human rights movement, on the equal rights movement? An overwhelming hell yes. And yes, the human rights movement and the men's/women's rights movements have become two very different animals.

It doesn't make sense to pull the "don't you have better things to do with your time?" argument, as you comment on a Pokemon forum. Don't you have better things to do with your time than spend time on here? Everyone chooses to spend their time in their own way, and it's not unethical to focus on issues that you are personally affected by; we do this every day as human beings, how we will give our money to a friend in need but not to a stranger, how we will spend 3 dollars in gas to get to a store we like better instead of giving that 3 dollars to charity and feeding a child for a week. In addition, this assumes a 1:1 ratio of time spent talking about "real issues" and time spent talking about issues in first world countries. If someone chooses to seek out a debate on how men are portrayed as dumb husbands in sitcoms, the alternative of that option is not for them to seek out a debate on child soldiers in Africa, but for them to do nothing at all.

The most insidious part of modern culture is the lie the media has fed us that we aren't influenced by it at all, as it's being fed into our brain from the first moment we see a television or leave the house. We worry about swearing in front of children, worry about teaching them from our actions that violence is the right way to react to things, worry that the way we communicate with our partners will change how they communicate as an adult. And then we let them watch a dozen commercials where women eat cheeseburgers in bikinis, a few sitcoms where men are incapable of loading a dishwasher, then we take them out to eat where they see dozens of billboards, signs, and advertisements. Then we laugh when people suggest that these influence their socialization and cultural assumptions.

 

[Polar Spectrum]

.

Highly interesting read; completely relevant. Has anyone read this? I own a copy and they touch on things like media influencing preconceptions of gender roles and such. If anyone's interested, more can be found on it here, including where you can buy your own copy to read. https://books.google.com/books/about/Why_We_Suck.html?id=cp0JhXHenwAC

 

[Hackenfall Backslash]

Historically, men have had more rights than women, and that is simply a fact we need to accept.

Let's have a talk about responsibility. (this is a link)

Now that I have that out of the way, I move on. Based on what you said, you're no better than a feminist. Though it was nice trying to avoid suspicion by saying the "women's rights" movement is also poo. Notice you didn't say feminism. Nor did you point out how exactly the "women's rights" movement messes up. You only point out that of the men's rights movement.

Hm. Why is that? Why did you have so much to say about men in history, but little to nothing to say about women's part in all this?

 

[Oryx]

Let's have a talk about responsibility. (this is a link)

Now that I have that out of the way, I move on. Based on what you said, you're no better than a feminist. Though it was nice trying to avoid suspicion by saying the "women's rights" movement is also poo. Notice you didn't say feminism. Nor did you point out how exactly the "women's rights" movement messes up. You only point out that of the men's rights movement.

Hm. Why is that? Why did you have so much to say about men in history, but little to nothing to say about women's part in all this?

Probably because this is a thread on men's rights that has had to be warned to stay off the topic of feminism because they were arguing it instead of men's rights. If you want to discuss the ~perils of feminism~ you are not in the right thread.

 

[Grey Wind]

Why do we need to split up the rights of our citizens based on our gender?

The same reason we fight specifically for gay rights or trans rights or the rights of any other oppressed group.

 

[Neil Peart]

If I were to choose a word to describe my beliefs in regards to equality, I'd choose egalitarianism. I think the ideas of both feminism and the MRA - ESPECIALLY the MRA - are absurd. Equality for all, and it's as simple as that.

I will say this, though - the fact that men, the ones behind so many of the awful, perverted, unjust things in this world think they need their own rights movement, is laughable.

 

[Neil Peart]

I agree to an extent, but you're painting all men with the same brush. As one yourself, I think you could obviously say you're not as unjust as some men.

How am I saying "all men have done horrible things"? That was nowhere in my post.

I'm talking about historically - manifest destiny, slavery, denying women rights, at the helm of corporations that have destroyed ecosystems and poisoned our air, on and on.

For all of that, the fact that men think they're being treated unfairly as a whole is a laugh, but I also think feminism is a laugh. It had meaning historically, but today it's pretty useless.

 

[Neil Peart]

Then I misinterpreted your post. As I said, I agree to an extent. However, I don't think feminism is "a laugh" until you get the ones who preach all men are rape apologists, but that's for another thread.

I dunno, I just don't see the need for the "feminist" label when the idea is equality.

 

[twocows]

If I were to choose a word to describe my beliefs in regards to equality, I'd choose egalitarianism. I think the ideas of both feminism and the MRA - ESPECIALLY the MRA - are absurd. Equality for all, and it's as simple as that.

I will say this, though - the fact that men, the ones behind so many of the awful, perverted, unjust things in this world think they need their own rights movement, is laughable.

I forgot that I was responsible for all the awful, perverted, unjust things in the world and thus am not able to have problems or talk about them. You'll have to excuse me, sometimes I get so caught up in sexually harassing people and kicking puppies and such that I forget that all men are evil and thus we can't have a discussion about our problems.

Do you think Germans can't talk about their problems either because a few of them did something really nasty in the late 30s, early 40s?? The idea behind what you're saying is identical.

 

[Neil Peart]

I forgot that I was responsible for all the awful, perverted, unjust things in the world and thus am not able to have problems or talk about them. You'll have to excuse me, sometimes I get so caught up in sexually harassing people and kicking puppies and such that I forget that all men are evil and thus we can't have a discussion about our problems.

Do you think Germans can't talk about their problems either because a few of them did something really nasty in the late 30s, early 40s?? The idea behind what you're saying is identical.

Is Wednesday "Take Out of Context and Put Words in Others' Mouths" day or something? Holy ♥♥♥♥.

I never ♥♥♥♥ing said you were responsible. I said that men were mainly responsible historically for denying all sorts of groups rights. That's a fact. I'm also saying men don't have enough legitimate rights issues to justify congregating together and demanding them. It's nothing more than a kneejerk reaction to feminist groups.

Referencing Nazis... what's new in Internet debate and discourse?

 

[twocows]

Is Wednesday "Take Out of Context and Put Words in Others' Mouths" day or something? Holy ♥♥♥♥.

I never ♥♥♥♥ing said you were responsible. I said that men were mainly responsible historically for denying all sorts of groups rights. That's a fact.

It's also entirely irrelevant, unless you're trying to make the point that I just refuted.

I'm also saying men don't have enough legitimate rights issues to justify congregating together and demanding them.

Bull. I've listed and re-listed and re-re-listed the sorts of problems that are important, problems that drive men to depression and suicide and wreck families and all sorts of nasty crap. How many times do I have to keep repeating myself before the point gets across: there are legitimate issues we face and brushing them off like they're nothing is extremely insensitive.

Yes, I am upset, because this stuff is important to me. I've seen it tear apart families and destroy peoples' lives. This isn't some red-versus-blue crap, it's not "my team or your team," it's a matter of real issues affecting real people and causing real harm.

It's nothing more than a kneejerk reaction to feminist groups.

There are people who sit around all day pointing out x and y and z problems with feminism and do nothing but that and call themselves MRAs. That's not every person in the movement, and it's not what I'm doing. I do talk about feminism and what I think about it in the feminism thread but I tried my best to make a thread here that focused on the issues instead of that stuff you mentioned.

Referencing Nazis... what's new in Internet debate and discourse?

It was an analogous situation, and I didn't compare you to a Nazi or compare your viewpoint to a Nazi viewpoint or even mention Nazis. The fact that people tend to reference this period of history a lot in discussion does not have any bearing on the accuracy of my analogy.