BettyNewbie

Nate also feels pretty forgettable.

Sure, take all the time you need.

Wonder why they had to treat Lyra as a different character, and not just claim that she was Kris redone...

Honestly, in that case, I'd blame either Ash himself or the actual writers for that, not Iris. Do I think her telling off Ash should be toned down to have him refute Iris, sure, but on the other hand, the fact that Ash was made a colossal idiot is more of an indictment on Ash himself.


Fully agreed there, and that even reflected with the gym leaders, where Ash actually won his battles fair and square, not to mention actually had to struggle with several of them. Not to mention, unlike future series save for maybe XY, the gym leaders were actually depicted as very formidable, and all WITHOUT decreasing Ash's competency, or Pikachu's for that matter.


Yeah, no kidding.


Hadn't watched much of Johto, though ironically enough the fillers had absolutely nothing to do with my being driven away from that series. Actually, it's because WB did some really lame ads that ultimately drove me away from them, such as the Sock Party ad (shudders... I already have bad views of singing from Return to the Sea, don't need THAT one where Ash randomly sang broadway style about Sock partys). It also doesn't help that I was eventually growing very paranoid of people denouncing me as a baby for watching Pokémon or even Disney films thanks in large part to how Arthur acted to D.W. regarding Mary Moo Cow. In fact, the closest I've ever gotten to watching Johto was that marathon leading up to DP back in 2008, and quite frankly, I really didn't see what the fuss was all about (granted, I didn't actually see ALL of Johto as it was, but it was the closest I've come to actually watching all of it. Who knows, maybe this Christmas, I'll get a chance to actually watch the entire saga, or at least most of it [don't think the Ice Cave or another of those banned episodes involving Jynx will be there, though]). Though I'll admit, if they're going to keep Ash's Johto Pokémon unevolved, they should at the very least make sure that they gave an in-universe reason for not doing so, like with Pikachu, Bulbasaur and, to a lesser extent, Squirtle. And the Whirl Cup was definitely good as well, and it's nice to see Misty actually being able to pursue her goal, especially when we had far more of an idea of what that entailed than Ash's goal.


Yeah, and the Whirl Cup was very good as well. And on the subject of gyms, I agree, though to be honest, even Kanto's gyms, I could take over the crap that were Hoenn, Sinnoh, and Unova's gyms. Say what you will about Kanto having pity badges for lack of a better term from half the gym leaders, at least most of the gym leaders there, Misty's sisters aside, were actually proven to be quite formidable and forces to be reckoned with. With Hoenn, however, with the exception of Brawley (and to a lesser extent Roxanne since she at least lost to Pikachu, an established veteran, even if he WAS the victim of level resets during that time), all of the Gym Leaders were pushovers, easily losing to rookie Pokémon on Ash's "fresh start" team. It's actually quite embarrassing to watch characters who, while not necessarily to the level of Elite 4 or Champions, were nonetheless considered to be Crème of the Crop trainers, lose as easily to Ash's rookie team as Jessie, James, and Meowth lost to that Caterpie back in Ash Catches a Pokémon (a Pokémon that was explicitly mentioned to be weak) seven-fold. I mean, it's like, I don't know, binge-watching the whole Imperial Unit on Endor, who were explicitly listed as being an entire legion of the Empire's best troops, basically being easily owned by what are essentially a bunch of animate teddy bears (you know what I'm referencing, right?). Unova's Gym Leaders were arguably worse due to Ash being an idiot there in addition to a rookie team. Even Sinnoh, while comparatively better in that at least they don't lose to rookies nearly as much, came at the cost of Ash and Pikachu themselves being depicted as incompetent, especially in light of their earlier victory over a Regice. In fact, of the regions after Kanto/Orange Islands/Johto, only Kalos came the closest to actually restoring Gym Leaders' honor and reputations as skilled trainers, without making Ash look incompetent I should add.


Yeah, no kidding, and it also doesn't help that even Ash got not one, but TWO eggs over Brock that saga (Larvitar and Phanpy, the latter he actually kept), and Ash wasn't even doing breeding as a goal. Phanpy should have gone to Brock, heck, even Larvitar should have gone to Brock.


Yeah, I know. Find it a bit ironic, even regarding them occurring in America after the fact, that Weatherford didn't complain about Staff Officer Black or Android 15 of Dragon Ball (Z) despite them being very explicitly based on black people, though. And I really don't understand why Japan would panic about Brock potentially being a "racist stereotype" against the Japanese despite the anime originating from Asia, yet have no qualms with admitting they only viewed the girls since May as sexual eyecandy despite their explicitly being 10 year olds. That if anything comes across as even worse than just having an unfortunate stereotype of an ethnicity.


Yeah, that's another problem posed by the writers decisions regarding their choices with Ash. They really screw them out. And too bad that DP made his Battle Frontier win seem like a joke, especially when they had Pikachu lose to an Ursaring that Paul caught within Sinnoh.


Yeah, I mean, even if they were to keep JJM, why do they have to keep them as Team Rocket? Why not just act as members of Team Magma/Aqua, Team Galactic, or Team Plasma? And quite frankly, they should make them more threatening, and I don't meant he BW manner, but more like the original series manner.

Yeah, agreed. We could tell that Misty and Ash were friends who had each others best interests, yet still clashed heads and got on each others nerves. And yeah, it did come across as one sided with Iris unfortunately (though that being said, I can't help but agree with her after how Ash really ended up being depicted as a huge Homer Simpson-type moron in BW).


Agreed on all fronts, especially the Alola thing. One good thing about the Original Series that has other series pale in comparison is that there is an actual discernable growth in Ash's skillsets and characterization that we can see. Thanks to them being different series, we don't actually see it, simply being told it.


Yeah, I can see your point. Too bad, really, because Ash really needs to go now.


Well, to be fair, the whole GS Ball debacle was due to a failure between the anime and movie production teams (since they wanted the GS Ball to be used in a similar manner to the games to promote it, but then someone decided to just use Celebi in a movie, and they canned it. Too bad they dropped it. I wonder if their having Ash explicitly reference the events of Movie 2 were meant as a subtle apology for ruining that promotion due to the Celebi movie?). So far as the fillers, eh, I actually managed to sit through the episodes of Johto that they showed a few years back in one sitting and was not worse for wear (the only one I missed was Don't Touch that 'Dile, and that was only because I was out getting summer reading books that time and, due to Barnes and Noble being unusually busy during that time, I couldn't make it home in time. This marathon was around the time DP premiered on Cartoon Network here in the States).


Yeah, no kidding. Probably the closest they ever got to showing his breeder abilities during Johto was with the Stantler episode and the breeder convention. Beyond that... he really was screwed over, which is a shame especially when the games actually HAD a breeding mechanic that they could do. I don't know if it's due to the matter not being suitable for children or not, though I have my doubts about that since, if they thought Brock's horndog antics were suitable enough to be used as a running gag, they certainly could get away with two Pokémon mating.


Yeah, I remember that whole thing regarding how Masamitsu Hidaka feared he was a racist stereotype (though I find it rich: Since Pokémon is a Japanese anime, why would people care if he looked like a Japanese stereotype?) The whole Weatherford thing also didn't help.


Yeah, and in the case of Ash, they hadn't bothered to give ANY elaboration on his goal until DP when they stated he'll need to fight the Elite 4 and Champion to even come close to becoming Pokémon Master. Not even having him win the Battle Frontier was apparently enough for him to gain the title, especially when the Brains were strongly implied if not explicitly stated to rival the Elite 4 in terms of combat prowess. And as far as Team Rocket, quite frankly, keeping them for AG onward proved to be a mistake, since they came across as less threatening and more annoying. If you want to make them comical, fine, go right ahead, but don't try to not make them an actual threat. The entire point of being a villain or even an antagonist is for them to be a threat to the protagonist, and not a mere annoyance that can be brushed to the side.

Aww, now I wish that the MC of GSC had been Red's sibling.

xD.

I see :P

Yeah, fully agreed with that. At least the OS series did depict Ash (and for that matter the series girl, in this case Misty) as actual 10 year olds, and not making Ash out to be like Homer Simpson, or making what are 10 year old girls look/act more like teenagers or young adults.


Yeah, and in the case of AG, he and his rookie team ended up making many of the gym leaders look grossly incompetent and lacking any skill, which comes across as too similar to Team Rocket in Ash Catches a Pokémon. I could tolerate DP and XY Ash, though. At least he managed to actually do better than the prior sagas. Heck, if SM actually HAS Ash do what they failed to do before and actually have him WIN the league in Alola, I'll even tolerate his antics there.


Yeah, no kidding. At the very least, they should have allowed him to win Johto so they could be done with him. It's irritating, having him be an inconsistent character, regress regarding potential, and since AG have any potential victories he might have basically be completely undone. And to make matters worse, even most of the target audience is clearly not buying into that crap if the ratings are anything to go by.


Yeah, agreed. People wear swimwear on swim teams for a reason and it's athleticism. She wasn't necessarily wearing them just to look cute.


Fully agreed there as well. That's also what Wikipedia claims is the reason why she's popular especially among us Westerners.


I was actually referencing Kanto there (remember, he established his desire to be the world's best Pokémon Breeder after Ash "won" the Boulder Badge), but yeah, fair point regarding Johto onward (still wish they at least made an effort to have Brock try to actually breed two of his own Pokémon during that saga, and later sagas, though). The only other time Brock made any attempt at raising a Pokémon as an egg was with Happiny.


Can't comment on Tracey since I never really watched Orange Islands much (it's not him that drove me to not watch it that time, more that they changed the opening, which at the time, not being familiar with anime much and at most only understanding western cartoons, since those generally didn't change the actual song in the opening (the only thing they actually DID change was the animation at most). In fact, the only time I recall them actually altering the songs was with live action programs such as Sister-Sister and Smart Guy. Different animated series like Super Mario Bros. Super Show and The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3, I could understand differing openings, but not Indigo League to Orange Islands.). However, he seemed tolerable compared to Brock in later seasons, especially when Tracey actually kept his liking girls low key.


Yeah, no kidding. Though even in Johto, he still had his moments (like the Stantler episode). Other than that, they really should have removed him. And like I said, I find episodes that either try to make him a bit more important as being pretty bad due to usually forcing Brock into it and making the others seem like idiots as a result, or simply doing OOC stuff (for example, aside from Ash failing to recognize Pachirisu's symptoms despite it having similar anatomy to Pikachu, who came down with a cold twice, there's also the fact that Team Rocket outright ignored a Zapdos despite their mission prerogative being to capture, legally or otherwise, rare and valuable Pokémon).


Yeah, no kidding. At the very least, they should have him be a Pokémon Doctor at the start of Johto to give him more use.

Now, Hilbert...

Btw, what did you think of adult Red?

Lucas like Gold/Ethan also has is own distinct style (beret and scarf). Though he does resemble Ethan and Red a lot (more so in the latter two's remake artwork). Lucas even shares a lot of default nicknames in the Japanese version with those two...

Gold was actually originally meant to be Red's brother.

Some would even say since the very beginning (counting Gold/Ethan, and Brendan). The girls are the most distinctive characters.

Yeah, it is xD

What did you think of the episodes?

Yeah, no kidding. And quite frankly, the fact that they are 10 years old makes them being waifu material just... well, just downright creepy, period. I could tolerate admiring Ash, since in DP and XY, at least he actually WAS shown to be a bit of a pro. I don't even mind the fact that Iris calls Ash out as being childish either. If anything, I was more irritated at how Ash was even depicted as childish and idiotic during that series in the first place (at least, what I've heard of it), taking a massive level in stupidity. Seriously, at least in Kanto, most of his more dumb decisions were due to rookie mistakes and being a novice (most, not all, though. Him having Caterpie fight a Pidgeotto was just downright stupid, something not even a rookie would do).


Yeah, I know what you mean speaking as someone from Serebiiforums myself. Heck, forget Serebiiforums, Bulbagarden if anything was even worse, since if you even try to voice any support for bringing her back, they throw you into the "hall of shame." And honestly, Misty may have been somewhat girly at times, but she most certainly wasn't really meant to be "eyecandy" or at least, not purely that (the closest she EVER got to that was with Beauty and the Beach, and that episode got banned for a reason, and even there, she didn't necessarily enjoy the experience). If anything, alongside Iris, she's one who looks and actually acts her age. Wikipedia even noted, with some of its sources, that she struck a perfect balance.


Yeah, agreed. A surfing minigame? I don't think we even had one of those since... well, since Pokémon Yellow. And agreed. Based on the Seafoam Island episodes, she definitely would like surfing.


Well, to be fair, they did at least attempt to set up breeding in Kanto by having him raise Togepi as an egg. If anything the whole thing with Johto was even worse since they literally had him not focus on his goal despite it literally featuring it as a gameplay feature, started it even. Never understood it, TBH. You'd think that they'd at least show him attempting to breed two Pokémon together since, you know, it's his goal. Instead, the most we've got toward his goal was the Stantler episode and the Breeder convention. Before then, the closest we've got to an actual reason for letting him stay was that he cooks, which makes little sense because, 1. Misty was actually implied to have done the cooking back during the Viridian Forest arc before they even met Brock (it's 13 days in Viridian Forest based on what the narrator said about them taking two weeks to get to Pewter City, Ash's first day was a total disaster, you can do the math), not to mention was essentially responsible for curing Jessie, Ash, and Tracey's stun spore disease in the Orange Islands (which required, you guessed it, cooking), and even an anime trading card released around that time depicted Misty preparing some soup, 2., there were plenty of times Brock didn't help at all regarding the whole cooking thing (like, say, Pokémon Shipwreck); and 3., Ash and Misty didn't even NEED someone who could cook during the time they went through the Orange Islands.

And fully agreed regarding that. In hindsight, they definitely should have made him a doctor (of course, I wasn't particularly happy with the episode where Pachirisu ended up falling ill because of the fact that Ash couldn't recognize that Pachirisu had a cold, despite having to experience his Pikachu having similar symptoms twice). At least there, he can provide invaluable use. And quite frankly, that whole "horny Brock" running gag wasn't even remotely funny to begin with. Besides, it's grossly inappropriate ESPECIALLY for the target age bracket (initially families, and later on little kids), and quite frankly, it makes us heterosexual males look extremely bad as a result. I don't like that kind of humor when it came from Lumiere from Beauty and the Beast, Glenn Quagmire from Family Guy, Charlie Harper (or, heck, any of the male cast members) in Two and a Half Men, Krillin, Master Roshi, and Old Kai in Dragon Ball, Kazuhira Miller from Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker, or anyone else who matches similar descriptions in various series. Why would I find it funny under Brock. I was able to tolerate it in Kanto largely because at least there, he showed some genuinely redeemable aspects to his character to allow that to be overlooked, such as him spearheading saving that Charmander and reading Damian the riot act, among other things. Plus, there have been a few instances where Brock's flirting actually was done in a tolerable light, like in Bulbasaur and the Hidden Village where, while obviously having a crush on Melanie, he was so low key that if anything he DOESN'T want anyone to mention he's got a crush on her and gets all stammered rather than outright trying to go all horny on her. Personally, I'm glad they actually toned it down in his reappearance to only flirt with the teacher, not any time else.

Eh, Iris I can handle TBH. She if anything from what I've heard may be one of Unova's saving graces. If anything, the fact that's she's similar to Misty is exactly the reason why I like her. Shame she's not all that popular, though maybe she has enough of a following to grant her that.

As far as what Misty could do in Alola, well, all of those things you listed, maybe also participate in a Water Pokémon competition like the Whirl Cup. Maybe the Water/Bug types will even have her confront her fear for good, maybe develop on WHY she had that fear in the first place. And hopefully, assuming this actually has a new series after that and that this isn't the last series (I find it unlikely that Ash will end up losing a league that's literally being founded right now), she'll be part of the main cast. I mean, having her return for Alola, Brock as well? That's definitely unusual, especially in regards to Ash actually requesting it. He hasn't done that with not only his past companions, but even Misty back in AG, that suggests either a permanent return or that the series is going to end soon.

And honestly, I think I can name quite a few things she could do relating to Water Pokémon if they do a new saga and her goal, and she's part of the main cast. Namely, have her participate in several Water competitions and get tokens from that, and then go to that region's equivalent of the Whirl Cup. Maybe have Ash participate as well if needs be. Oh, and aside from that, also have her deal with episodes dealing with Water Pokémon.

I can even list some stuff Brock can do that would be invaluable for the group now that he's a Doctor. If they aren't anywhere near a Pokémon Center, Brock can do his work and save them a lot of time and energy, for example.

I don't know about sales figures, but I do know that on this Pokestore thing, Iris was the only one available by the time I even tried to preorder Misty alone. As such, I had to wait until eBay started selling them, and even then, even though my intent was just to get Misty, I ultimately got the full set due to it being the only one available and it getting a lot of preorders (I know that by the time I got there, there were only four preorders left. This was back in June back when they were first announced. I'll try to ask the guy for the sales figures, however. Probably also the guy who I asked at that Poke store regarding the unavailability regarding Misty.).

And yeah, I'm definitely keeping my fingers crossed as well. Could be a couple of months, could be in a couple of years. The only thing we know for certain is they're probably going to make at least one more reappearance before Alola is finished if they are to reappear. In the meantime, I'm definitely going to be doing constant checking of Serebii and Bulbapedia regarding this, heck, even here since that's where I managed to find out the news of her and Brock's return in the first place.

To be fair, XY did poorly regarding the movies as well, and that was a series that was even looser with continuity than this series even WITH Movie 20. And besides, if the merchandising is of any indication, a lot of people bought the Gachapon Misty thing, and the October issue of that Anime magazine that came with a special poster, and also that GEM Misty figure. Brock, too. And considering how Misty and Brock got as high as they did in that poll I mentioned earlier, which was explicitly mentioned in that translation provided by Dephender to have 90% of the voters being between ages 10 and 29 (and it being pretty evenly split not just among genders, but also between 10-19 year olds and 20-29 year olds), I'd say there are plenty of fans among the little kids/preteens department even among the Japanese. In other words, merchandising wise, it's a success.

Actually, I think there may be a wrench thrown into our hopes, unfortunately. I discovered on the Pokémon Ratings thread that apparently, the episode where Brock and Misty return didn't even make it into the Top 10. That may mean the writers may end up nixing that plan of them returning. Let's hope the writers don't do that.


That post was from BanFairy.

Well, to be fair, there's also Misty's Gyarados and Brock becoming a Pokémon Doctor instead of a Breeder (which occurred in AG [kind of] and DP) and also Togepi's absence. But yeah, agreed. And I'm actually surprised that they actually kept Brock's... girl-love characterization toned down quite a bit. Due to the trailers, I feared he'd be like that the whole arc. Turns out he really only did it once with that female teacher from what I gathered. Pleasantly so, in fact, to the extent that I'm actually thinking he should return (and it also helps that he's now actually showing himself to be very strong here, especially when AG-DP made him out to be weak, Johto to a certain extent as well), and if he does return permanently, I can say this much, his Doctor skills will make him EXCEPTIONALLY useful if they can't go to a Pokémon Center in time otherwise, meaning he'll have even more use there than as a breeder.

And yes, a very good first step indeed. Even more so a very good second step in terms of recovery for the treatment of Gym Leaders as a whole post-OS (honestly, of them, only XY came close to truly redeeming the reputation of Gym Leaders as being these exceptionally powerful trainers, after AG and BW for some idiotic reason depicted them as basically being jokes who are about as "competent" at battling as Jessie James and Meowth were against that Caterpie, and even in DP where they were a bit more competent, it's overshadowed by how they made Ash and Pikachu look incompetent by having them lose to them despite taking out a Regice.).

And since we know thanks to the ending of todays episode that a return will happen at least some time prior to the end of the Alola saga, we also know they'll probably come back, possibly even permanently if we're lucky. And hopefully this time, they'll make sure that next time, she's actually allowed to pursue her goal again.

Well, now that Misty's return has come and gone, let's do a debrief on the whole thing.

Positives:
*Misty managed to completely wipe the floor with Lana and Mallow, thus truly restoring the reputation of the position of gym leaders everywhere after it was soiled by AG and BW treating the gym leaders as complete jokes comparable to JJM by having them lose to rookie Pokémon (and in the case of the latter, a complete idiot), and even with DP, they only came across as impressive by making Ash and Pikachu seem like jokes by comparison especially after their winning against a Regice. And even Brock really gave it his all and truly showed his skills as a trainer for the first time since Kanto.
*Misty managed to really fight Ash to a standstill, and did I mention she mega-evolved her Gyarados?
*Jigglypuff is back after an awkward disappearance in AG.
*Squirtle's now living at Professor Oak's place, so a whole lot of Ash's original team is back.
*The reunion with various Pokémon Ash had.
*There's even a small hint that Misty and Brock will indeed be appearing in Alola itself in the near future.
*Thanks to Kikuki's announcement for a new Pokémon league in Alola, Ash is now back at his goal, especially when the pre-release stuff indicated he was going to be forced to be a school student and drop his goal altogether.
*The reunion scenes are a very nice touch.
*Couldn't help but notice that Jessie when addressing Misty unintentionally referenced Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, due to calling her "Brat Girl." (Harley Quinn made the same insult to Batgirl in that infamous flashback.
*The friendship between Lana and Misty was really nice to see, and it also helps that it even hinted at them developing a potential rivalry which if anything would greatly AID Misty in her Water Pokémon Master goal should she come back for good.

Negatives:
*They may have spoiled a bit too much especially for what was ultimately two episodes, thus really wasting a whole lot of potential.
*Although Misty did a fine job restoring Gym Leaders honor, she's still not quite back to her prime of actually pursuing her goal of becoming Water Pokémon Master especially after her sisters ditched the gym yet again. Hopefully, the likely next appearance for her will rectify that bit.
*The episode, or at least Bulbapedia's take on it, makes it seem as though Brock's the actual literal Pewter Gym Leader yet at the same time states during the Poke Problem that Forrest's the actual gym leader there.
*Still no Pidgeot.
*There's a slight contradiction regarding Gyarados and Misty in her first episode where she flees from it, despite actually owning one herself and having gotten over her fear. Of course, compared to the above stuff, this is actually exceptionally minor.

Overall, more positives than negatives, and there's a definite hint that more will be coming from her and Brock. Hopefully, Misty will indeed return for good next appearance, certainly be allowed to pursue her Water Pokemon Master goal again for keeps. And knowing that they're probably going to have a future appearance in the works, I probably don't even need to do petitioning as much. So, anyways, what do you think of the episodes?

EDIT: Okay, maybe have to amend my initial review now that Frozocone responded. Apparently Ash took out Mega Gyarados a bit too easily (though to be fair, Pikachu IS an established veteran), and apparently the only reason Misty won against Lana and Mallow was because Psyduck lost control, and apparently Brock came across as a bit more impressive (such a shame he's not a Gym Leader anymore, otherwise I would have credited him as restoring gym leaders' honor). However, even with that, that's still a far better battle than any of the battles in AG and BW were, at least she didn't lose to rookies at all, let alone as easily, so even there, she STILL managed to restore honor to some extent.