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Article: Hyper Training blows the metagame wide open

Oblox

Pokemon Breeder
753
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    • Seen Jul 9, 2021
    The key thing to remember is that this is a smart move in making IV's available to everyone to improve. Much like super training it adds a normal game mechanic to improve your pokemon without needing to read in depth guides or learn the breeding system or grind certain pokemon for hours on end.

    I'm a breeder and im all for this move because this will hopefully eradicate the need for hacked 6IV dittos for breeding competitive mons. It should also lessen the need for hacked pokemon from players looking to compete who dont have access to trade and dont want to breed so resort to powersaves or code injection hacks.

    It also makes the pokemon caught by anyone viable long term as they can truly upgrade them rather than chucking them away for a better version. This includes rare legendaries which may be absolute rubbish when received.
     

    KillerTyphlosion

    Champion
    271
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  • I really like this feature. But at the same time, we don't know how limited it is. Can we use it infinitely? Maybe we can only use it once a day. Getting perfect 31 iv will probably way easier or at least making a perfect parent(ditto/smeargle). The only thing I want to know if we can make specific hidden powers as that is one of the most complicated things you can get(Legends are the most annoying of all or shiny breeding).
     
    2,777
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    As has already been said, unless you can find Bottle Caps like how Go players find Pidgeys, IV breeding is likely still gonna be faster. In my own experience, I've never bothered to level a competitive Pokémon up to Lv.100 so that already seems like a hassle to me. The only thing this system "blows the metagame open" for is Pokémon caught in the wild with subpar IVs, or legendaries with subpar IVs. And even then, we don't know how this will affect Hidden Power, so breeding(/resetting) may still end up being the optimal way to go, with Hyper Training used simply for a bit of extra polish. I genuinely don't think Hyper Training will be "hassle-free" enough to warrant it as a method to completely, from the ground-up, "IV breed" Pokémon. It will probably be best used alongside IV breeding.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
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  • Normally makes sense? In Pokémon you can hatch an egg that's already a mother with a child, have a whale and cat breed, and give ten year olds fire breathing dragons, among MANY other things.

    As for your question, I think it'll definitely make getting IVs more fun now.
    I said there were a few issues, but they are overlooked in order to make the game more fun. That doesn't mean the whole thing is backwards and nonsensical.
     

    MegaKuriboh

    Yare Yare Daze
    811
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  • I said there were a few issues, but they are overlooked in order to make the game more fun. That doesn't mean the whole thing is backwards and nonsensical.

    And now IV's are being overlooked to make the game more fun, especially in competitive where you can now make almost any Pokemon you get attached to able to battle in more intense environments.

    IVs were, a terrible mechanic. A horrible excuse to make Pokemon seem more "unique". All it does is render some Pokemon useless. Unlike Natures which can usually be compromised, and EV training which allows you to train your Pokemon in anyway you want, Pokemon that have IVs lower than 31 across the board are generally considered useless in any competitive environment. There are very specific niche exeptions, but seriously all they do is limit Pokemon's potential. As the technology grows Gamefreak can implement new ways to make every Pokemon seem unique and different, but changing and limiting stats is just not a good way to do it. Even they know IV's are terrible because they made it so much easier with each generation to get a Pokemon with great IVs. This is the next step. Now you don't have to hack in a flawless Landorus for the VGC's (because who the hell is gonna soft reset 100 times for a good Landorus?? Not to mention even if you get the good IVs, your synchronize might not even work and you'll have to start AGAIN). This makes hacking less and less necessary, and it's wonderful.
     
    12
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    • Seen Dec 14, 2016
    Hyper training maybe good, it maybe bad but it's a choice you can do it or not so it doesn't have to change anything
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
    Posts
    7
    Years
  • And now IV's are being overlooked to make the game more fun, especially in competitive where you can now make almost any Pokemon you get attached to able to battle in more intense environments.

    IVs were, a terrible mechanic. A horrible excuse to make Pokemon seem more "unique". All it does is render some Pokemon useless. Unlike Natures which can usually be compromised, and EV training which allows you to train your Pokemon in anyway you want, Pokemon that have IVs lower than 31 across the board are generally considered useless in any competitive environment. There are very specific niche exeptions, but seriously all they do is limit Pokemon's potential. As the technology grows Gamefreak can implement new ways to make every Pokemon seem unique and different, but changing and limiting stats is just not a good way to do it. Even they know IV's are terrible because they made it so much easier with each generation to get a Pokemon with great IVs. This is the next step. Now you don't have to hack in a flawless Landorus for the VGC's (because who the hell is gonna soft reset 100 times for a good Landorus?? Not to mention even if you get the good IVs, your synchronize might not even work and you'll have to start AGAIN). This makes hacking less and less necessary, and it's wonderful.
    Have you just ignored everything else I've said? I agree IVs suck, but they could have solved the issue in a better way than this.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
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  • With all due respect Caeethil, it really seems like your bubble got bursted because somehow Pokemon doesn't follow real-world logic?
    Nope. Stop trying to read into my posts. Take what I said at face value.

    To be quite honest, I'm surprised people are applying real-life concepts to Pokemon anyway, considering you're going to be sorely disappointed if you do.
    It's wrong to want a game to be relatable to the world we live in? The Pokemon world is based on the real world.[/QUOTE]

    The Pokemon "World" is whatever The Pokemon Company/Nintendo/Game Freak wants it to be and they will meld it into any way, shape or form whatsoever, for better or worse, to the surprise or to the expectation of the fanbase. If that comes as a shock to you, well, welcome to Pokemon.
    Why does this mean I have to like it? Why does this mean I shouldn't voice my contrary opinion?

    Sure, IVs are much more closer to EVs than previously, but, in my eyes, that's not a bad thing at all. Competitively speaking, this would make things a whole lot easier and lower the entry barrier significantly for those who are a bit nervous into trying out battling.
    I KNOW AND THAT'S GREAT. I LOVE THAT. I THINK THAT'S AMAZING.

    This is literally all I've said this whole time. Can we deal with the points I brought up now?

    The fundamentals of IVs is that they influence individual stats and they also influence how much you can raise that stat by (ergo, while you can still put 252 EVs in a stat, if that particular stat has 0 IVs, you're not going to get as much value as you would if that particular stat has 31 IVs instead).
    Okay..? What does this have to do with anything? My point is that IVs are not unique or interesting anymore, they're just the same as EVs with a different name and a different cap. That makes them a pointless mechanic and warrants removal.

    Really though, I don't quite grasp the frustration about this. It's not like it's an obligatory feature; if you want to breed, you can breed. If you want to take the easy route and change the IVs yourself, that's an easier route, too. It definitely gives a reason for players to strive for lv 100 when previously there was no reason to. It's completely optional. If you don't like it, don't do it.
    Okay, alright. I'm going to make one statement in bold text and I'm going to hope people read it this time (though I seriously doubt it).

    I hate IVs and am very glad they are being made easier to attain - I will gladly use this! I absolutely loathe breeding! But this system is, in my opinion, still very boring gameplay and I would rather have something more fun!

    Sorry if I seem passive aggressive in this post. To put it bluntly, I am. I'm tired of people telling me I don't understand, or I'm just some kind of tryhard elitist breeder, or that I can still breed if I want to. I hate breeding. Nobody is reading my posts properly and now I'm annoyed by it. Everybody is assuming I love breeding and want IVs to be really hard to get and I just don't. I would rather IVs be removed than have the X/Y system, but people are completely ignoring that and it is extremely frustrating because I'm trying to get a viewpoint out there that's against the norm and people are jumping down my throat for it and making me out to be something I'm not.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
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  • Am I wrong to say the Pokemon world functions a lot like our world? It has humans, the humans eat, sleep, drink. The humans live in houses and have jobs. They breathe air and live in regions based on our world's countries.

    What I was contesting was the idea that I'm mad that Pokemon doesn't always follow real world logic. I don't mind some differences obviously. There's no contradiction.

    Now you're contradicting yourself. You tell me not to read into your posts but you're confirming what I'm saying by having these expectations that the Pokemon world should be based on the real world anyway? ?_? I'm confused.
    I'm not saying it should be, I'm saying it is. Which it is. There is no contradiction in stating simple facts we are all aware of. The Pokemon world is, to some degree or another, based on the real one. This is not disputable.

    You don't have to like it. I'm just saying that's how it is.
    I don't see how 'how it is' is relevant to the discussion. I don't see 'how it is' is a response to genuine criticism.

    If you can list them instead of appearing argumentative, that'd be great.
    No point commenting here since I list them later in the post. Though this does seem rather 'snarky' considering all I'm telling you to do is read the points I've made if you want to respond to them. I don't care for debating this with you, I don't think it's my job to repeat myself.

    What's your alternative? It seems that throughout your posts you've been telling people "No! you don't get it! That's not what I'm saying!" and then providing a snarky comment without actually explaining what you mean, which is kinda something that gives a negative impression.
    Remove IVs. I said it a lot of times. Like, a lot. That is a perfectly valid option.

    Though I'm not 100% sure why I would need to give an alternative in the first place. You can criticise a system without knowing what the optimal system would be. I'm not a game designer.

    You really need to calm down. I'm by no means trying to sound accusatory; I'm trying to understand exactly where your perspectives lies in regards to this feature.
    Considering this post is the first time you've asked where my perspective lies, and your last post was more debating what you thought my perspective was, I am highly skeptical of this claim.

    I'd advise against taking my points personally, by the way, because they aren't mean to come off that way, and the actual intent is more of an inquisitve manner rather than accusatory.
    I'm not taking your points personally, what I'm taking personally is that I just can't fathom where I've gone wrong and where everybody is getting these nonsense impressions from. In all the time I've discussed hyper training, I've made a select few points very clear:

    • IVs suck.
    • Breeding sucks.
    • This is better than the system in X and Y.
    • This system is not perfect.

    And here are the points I've never made that people are attributing to me:

    • Realism is the best and I'm mad it isn't being followed.
    • I love breeding.
    • IVs should be super hardcore for hardcore people.

    See the frustration?

    Apologies that you're frustrated by what it seems to be a lack of understanding between others and yourself in regards to your points, but that's where you calmly and rationally try to explain your points in detail and provide reasoning why you feel this system isn't the best and can be improved.
    I've done that though and now we're way past it because it clearly isn't working.

    1. IVs are, conceptually, genetics.
    2. The uniqueness of that concept is fundamentally broken by making IVs changeable.
    3. IVs now function very similarly to EVs.
    4. This makes them a boring feature with no interesting gameplay to offer, in my opinion.
    5. All people seem to care about is that this is an improvement.
    6. Nobody seems to care about how good a system this actually is on its own two feet.
    7. If I actually start asking these important questions, people act like I'm just clawing for realism and needless complexity in the game because I'm some sort of elitist.

    I was merely sharing my own perspective.
    Your perspective has nothing to do with mine, though, and your arguing points don't even begin to deal with the actual issues I'm bringing up.

    You're very well free to have your own all you like. In fact, I doubt anyone in this thread was shoving anything down your throat; you're just taking it that way because people are simply inquiring about why you view the things you do.
    Nobody has inquired why I think the way I do, people have told me I'm wrong because they seem to think I love breeding and hate the idea of it being made easier to get perfect IVs. Frankly, I don't love breeding and I don't care how easy it is to get perfect IVs, and not one of my posts has suggested that. I've given one too many clarifications on this.

    This isn't an issue with my communication, this is people getting hung up on individual words I say and immediately denouncing me, because if I don't like this system I must be the enemy of the casual Pokemon player. Not trying to make you look bad, but look back at your own post. Let's be real for a second, you didn't actually respond to what I think, you didn't really pay an awful lot of attention to what I think honestly. If I wasn't clear enough, that means you assumed things about my view rather than asking me what my view was. You assumed I like the X and Y system and told me that is still available if I like it (which I don't) - to say that is to miss the core of my entire argument, which is that this system is an improvement. That's frustrating and I'm sorry if that puts me a bit on edge. It just gets tiring after so many times.
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
    Posts
    7
    Years
  • Similarities mostly end there, however.
    I don't see your point.

    That's what I was saying. You shouldn't expect it to follow real-world logic, because it's Pokemon.
    But IVs do follow real world logic, they're based on the real world concept of genetics. And soon they won't. And I'm expected to be cool with that because it's Pokemon? I think my reason for disliking this is perfectly valid.

    The Pokemon world may draw some inspiration based on the world that we live in, but that by no means says that it has to follow every rule down to the genetics (which you seem to have a problem with).
    I don't think it should. But IVs are based on genetics and I do think this change devalues them on a conceptual level.

    EVs and Natures existing in and out of themselves kind of prove this, after all.
    EVs and natures do not exist exactly the same in the real world as they do in the Pokemon world, but they are based on fundamental, real world concepts of personalities and training. They add more depth to the game, more individuality to the Pokemon, and more realism.


    Ah, a misunderstanding of my point. i was saying that the Pokemon World is the world made by The Pokemon Company, primarily, and then Nintendo and then Game Freak. You see, that is not disputable. They can modify the "world", as they please. The point of saying this is that you should expect much more deviation from the real-world than you're seeing currently. Don't be surprised when it happens.
    I'm not surprised. I just don't like it and I'm criticising it. I'm seeing your point, I'm just not seeing how it is relevant.

    I disagree with the removal of IVs, as frustrating as they may be to some., they are fairly crucial towards a number of factors, such as determining Hidden Power types on certain sets. Not only this, IVs are important specifically also for strategic gameplay, mostly for defensive Pokemon that should have a 0 attack IV to minimize damage from Foul Play, for one example. They're pretty useful, if I say so myself, but you're free to disagree, as usual.
    Hidden power could be determined by any number of other methods. They could implement anything.

    This 'strategic gameplay' is not something I'm seeing. Yes you can go 0 speed for trick room, but that's not strategic. Yes, it makes you're Pokemon better, but it does not require any skill, it just adds another hurdle on the path to having a good Pokemon.

    There is no strategy in 'all defensive Pokemon not using physical moves should have 0 attack IVs'. You read it online and you just do it. It adds nothing to the game.

    Asking out of curiosity and interest. Surely if you have a problem with IVs, don't you want there to be some sort of replacement for IVs or to suggest a better alternative in which case there should be more of a seamless transition towards understanding IVs, or am I wrong in this? Not having an iota of an idea of an alternative seems a bit odd to me, but I won't push this.
    I don't mind whether or not you push it. You can push it if you'd like, though it would be ludicrous to do so because it's a very strange point to make. Why should I have to offer the perfect alternative? I don't need to know the best possible system to know that an existing system is bad. I've already offered an alternative I believe to be better. Just because I don't know the perfect solution doesn't mean I have no right to criticise.

    Surely you recognise many issues in the world right now that should be solved. Do you know the perfect solution to all of those issues? No. That doesn't mean you should be silent and not criticise. It would be ludicrous to suggest such a thing.

    Your skepticism is irrelevant to this conversation, to put it bluntly. You can choose to believe me or not; the inquiry of your perspective was implied as soon as I made my post disagreeing with your own.
    No it wasn't? You were disagreeing with my view. There was no implication you lacked any knowledge of what my view was. Rationally speaking, if you didn't know what my view was, you would have, you know, asked?

    Implying doesn't help, and if your best argument is that you implied it, that's your problem.

    Fair enough point, I suppose, though you're seeing this too much in a black and white spectrum when it's not the such. It's not a matter of being right or wrong here; if you're not a fan of the system, so be it, it's a matter of question why you feel the way you do. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
    I know..? I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not claiming to be 100% right. I have an opinion and I'm sharing it.

    I've never said "realism is the best", and if you actually paid attention to my wording (which it doesn't seem that you have),
    This is... Rather ironic.

    If you actually paid attention to my wording (which it doesn't seem that you have), you would notice that I never once claimed that you said realism was the best. Rather, I said that other people were making out like I was saying that.

    I've articulated myself very carefully throughout my posts that can very well easily be refuted if you felt differently. You can spend more time refuting my points rather than going off on a tangent, but that's just me.
    What tangent? Stop being vague and talk to me, would you? Honestly, here you are telling me I'm not refuting your points, and you start talking about tangents? What now?

    IVs being conceptually genetics is a really funky point to make, in all honesty.
    No it isn't. It... It just isn't. IVs are based on genetics. This it the most black and white thing in this whole discussion I can think of. Even the Bulbapedia article on IVs says IVs are the Pokemon equivalent of genetics. Obviously that's not an official source, but it's kind of obvious and a fact that's been accepted for a rather long time (since they were introduced, really).

    In a way, they are, and in a way, they've always been "changeable"; from the start when IV breeding became a thing. Whether or not there's some sort of real world tie to Pokemon's version of "gene altering" is completely irrelevant in my eyes
    I'm guessing you're talking about destiny knot, power items etcetera. No, they aren't gene altering, and IVs are not changeable. They affect which IVs are inherited. It's a small detour from realism to make the game interesting and to give players control, but it's loyal to the concept in that you still can't just increase them after the egg hatches.

    because it's a fictional universe that can be modified in the desires of its creators.
    I know and I don't care. I'm still allowed to criticise it. I don't care what the creators can and can't do, the creators can do whatever the hell they like and that doesn't mean I have to like it. I can still criticise the system.


    Maybe because you haven't brought them up at all until your recent post.
    Want to try me?

    "I still hate that they're making IVs (genes) changeable, which makes zero sense."

    I think people are getting too caught up in what this will do and are forgetting to ask what the best way to do it is."

    "When IVs can be changed, they're essentially just EVs with a different name. At that point you might as well just remove IVs because they're pointless."

    "I agree IVs suck, but they could have solved the issue in a better way than this."

    All posted before you even responded to me. Try again.

    Listen Caeethil, I don't mean to be crass, but I don't really care for responding to the rest of your post which is rather coming across very "woe is me" if I'm going to be quite honest, and making very out-of-hand assumptions based on innocuous inquiries and nothing more. If you actually paid attention to anything I said, I was asking more questions and making more inquisitive statements, which it seems you mistakenly twisted into some sort of accusation that I'm going down your throat. If this is how you're going to treat discussion that's mean to be productive, then I guess we'll just agree to disagree here and move on.
    No supporting evidence here, so I'm just going to say this is wrong. You have repeatedly told me I should list my arguments now even if I've said them before, but you can't practice what you preach?

    Here, let me find your first post.

    I looked, there's one question mark. One question. Which I immediately responded to with "no". Yet we still go on. You said "If you don't like it, don't do it." Not an inquiry into my perspective, just completely missing the point. Where is all this questioning to find out my point of view you're talking about? You'll need to show me, because right now you're just being needlessly condescending with no supporting evidence.

    If you're going to carry on with acting like I'm so immature that you can't continue this discussion, go ahead. I'm trying to bring up actual arguments, while you seem to be the one plugging your ears telling me you don't want to respond to this and that. You're also being incredibly hypocritical, telling me to list my arguments here and now rather than tell you to read previous posts while you literally tell me to read your previous posts rather than listing them here and now. I'm seeing some inconsistency here. Fill me in?

    I don't want this to turn into a flame war, and it now feels like your posts are just telling me how immature I am. Not necessary. We're talking about Pokemon on the internet. I've calmed down, can you please do the same so we can have an actual discussion like adults?
     
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    I mean, if the bottle caps are limited, the smartest choice is likely to IV raise a ditto or two. i mean, Breeder's aren't going to die off, since egg moves, natures, etc., butI suppose it's still too early to see
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
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    Years
  • And I'm saying they don't, because IVs are whatever Game Freak wants them to be. Obviously they aren't genetics on this close of a level because of the introduction of Hyper Training. At any rate, DNA is MUCH more complicated than a series of numbers in a Pokemon game, so that connection is already flawed on its surface.
    Yes, IVs can be anything Game Freak wants them to be. That doesn't mean that's what they should be. I can still criticise the system.

    So can you explain how you can "reset" and "retrain" EVs and how that applies to the real world? Just curious.
    Purely exists for gameplay. You're not curious, you know exactly why.

    You're disappointed of the introduction of this feature, because it contradicts what you'd expect that the Pokemon World is based on our world, therefore I'm saying that on that level, you shouldn't, otherwise you're setting yourself up for a lot of disappointment.
    No, I'm disappointed primarily because it is homogenising and boring.

    We can agree to disagree, here. The fact that you didn't go into specifics on "any number of other methods" implies to me that you don't have an idea for any other methods?
    On use item, NPC, ingame events, bottle caps for all I care.

    If you have a legitimate criticism about something, that inherently implies (to whatever degree) that by having a concern, you also pose some sort of a conclusion or a solution.
    I think you need to adjust your expectations because this isn't how it works. I'm not qualified to make these game design decisions. I can offer suggestions when I have them but I'm not obligated to do anything of the sort while I criticise.

    You can cut the accustory tone, though.
    No idea what you're talking about. I'm making a point, but you're making it about me. If you don't like my tone you're welcome to stop talking as you keep threatening to, I'm just trying to have a discussion.

    Inquistive statement related stuff.
    Not sure what you're trying to get at with this anymore. You thought I held certain opinions, turns out I didn't.

    More accusatory tone.
    Am I wrong? Fallacy fallacy.

    Why do you constantly appear to have this "YOU ARE SILENCING MY OPINION I AM ALLOWED TO SHARE IT" perspective? ?_? I don't care that you have an opinion; you're allowed to share it, I'm wondering why you believe what you do. That's pretty much it.
    The perspective comes from you saying "GameFreak can do whatever they want" as if it matters. I know they can, I am under no illusion, I'm just making a criticism. If this argument stops, that perspective stops.

    I never said that you said that. Read carefully; it was a general statement.
    Your post was accusing me of saying that, right? Which I didn't say? Can you be a bit more clear? I obviously don't understand, I don't know why you're dragging this out. I've obviously read it and have no idea what you're talking about.

    "I have an opinion and I have the RIGHT to share it and how dare people tell me I'm wrong for having an opinion about a feature in a Pokemon game!"
    Are you paraphrasing me? Why would you want to do that? I didn't say this and do not hold this belief, you're making me look bad for no discernible reason other than flame bait or something.

    I want to talk about why you feel this feature is unnecessary, not the ethics of having an opinion and accusatory statements.
    I'm happy to talk about that, instead I'm being quizzed on inquisitive statements and how I should be expected to give the ideal solution to everything I don't like.

    They're based on genetics in concept, but in practice, can be literally meld into anything, as we've seen based on the introduction of Hyper Training.
    I know they can, that doesn't mean I should like it when they are. Why is this point still being made? What value does it still hold to the discussion? We're going around in circles, I've made this point many times.

    And this detour doesn't bother you? I suppose that's insignificant, but fair point.
    Okay, I think you're genuinely misunderstanding me here. It's not so much a hyper-realistic system that I want. What I want is a system that feels unique and interesting. The only thing about IVs that are unique and interesting to me is that they make Pokemon seem more like living things, mirroring a concept like genes. It's obviously much simpler and has certain changes for gameplay purposes, but it's fine because it's still a unique feature which has some level of depth. When it's homogenised to the point where it's just EVs under another name, there's nothing to like.

    It's cool and all they're opening the doors to more players, but what about this is fun gameplay? Is there not a better way to do this? What purpose do IVs even serve as a mechanic anymore? Wouldn't it be better to scrap them and make EVs as fun as possible by changing them up?

    Irrelevant tangent, really.
    It's very relevant. You keep bringing the point up and it adds nothing. I know, Game Freak can do whatever they want. Criticisms against those decisions are still valid.


    Less accustory tone, please.
    You know, I'm trying damn hard to calm down, and to be fair, you're not really practicing what you preach here. I wasn't trying to be accusatory, I was trying to make a valid point and you shutting it down with this ad hominem nonsense is rather grating on my patience. I'm trying to be polite now.

    Those were your issues with it, of which I'm very well aware of, not proposing any actual solutions/changes, but whatever. Not importnat.
    Yes, not important. You told me I hadn't made my opinion clear enough until after you had posted. I just pointed out where I had made it clear.

    Your posts are evidence enough, but you're going to say I'm wrong anyway, so...
    Yes, I am going to say you're wrong because you aren't backing up your arguments at all. You're being very uncooperative.

    Inquisitve statements don't have to have a question mark, the question is implied. I assume you don't know this?
    It seems you've tried very hard to be as vague as possible with your 'inquisitive statements'. If you didn't understand my view, you could have asked what my view is. Your first response to me was a criticism. A criticism of an argument you now admit to not understanding. See the problem?

    And I wasn't meaning to be condescending, but at any rate, you're being needlessly accusatory and rude, so please cut that out, thanks.
    It's okay if you do it because you don't mean it?

    There is something rather rude and thus ironic about "please cut that out, thanks". I'm not trying to be rude. I'm sorry if my tone bothers you. Stop bringing it up, we can end this much more amicably if you just debate my points. That's just who I am and it is not intentional. You, on the other hand, are just being snide now. "Cut that out". How old am I now?

    ---

    Not going to bother answering the rest of your flamebait. I only asked what your issues were in specific and was curious to see if you would have anything in mind to change it with. If you continue to act hostile to me, then I will drop this and not even bother to respond to you. I advise you to really calm the increasingly negative rhetoric; it gives the impression where you're really taking what I'm saying really personally when you shouldn't.
    I'm just trying to have a discussion, why does this have to turn into a confrontation? I'm not flame baiting you and there's no 'negative rhetoric'. I think you might be the one taking this personally, I don't mean to sound like any of that. I try my best to respond to everything you say fairly.

    I think this is the third time you've threatened to stop responding. If it's that bad just do it already. I'm not going to stop because I believe we can have a mature discussion and I'm trying my best. You're the one stopping that with all of this "you're flame baiting if you do it one more time I'm leaving I swear" and "accusatory tone". These are the only things halting this discussion.

    I'm not even saying anything negative towards you, you just have a problem with my tone. This is text on a website, it's rather easy to misinterpet. You're looking to far in. I'm not trying to be accusatory or rude, but you keep telling me I am and that's what's holding the discussion back, I think.
     

    MegaKuriboh

    Yare Yare Daze
    811
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  • Purely exists for gameplay. You're not curious, you know exactly why. [When refering to EV's being resettable

    And this is EXACTLY why Hyper Training is a thing. So you can make any Pokemon you want able to keep up with other competitively raised Pokemon.
     
    270
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    • Seen Jan 3, 2017
    I hate IVs and am very glad they are being made easier to attain - I will gladly use this! I absolutely loathe breeding! But this system is, in my opinion, still very boring gameplay and I would rather have something more fun!

    Sorry if I seem passive aggressive in this post. To put it bluntly, I am. I'm tired of people telling me I don't understand, or I'm just some kind of tryhard elitist breeder, or that I can still breed if I want to. I hate breeding. Nobody is reading my posts properly and now I'm annoyed by it. Everybody is assuming I love breeding and want IVs to be really hard to get and I just don't. I would rather IVs be removed than have the X/Y system, but people are completely ignoring that and it is extremely frustrating because I'm trying to get a viewpoint out there that's against the norm and people are jumping down my throat for it and making me out to be something I'm not.

    Personally, I think this is the best option for GameFreak to take, where IVs continue to exist but can be made irrelevant if the player wants to. It's a way of having your cake and eating it too I suppose. You keep the DNA metaphor but also have the 'pure gameplay' option available if you want it.
    I also think there are some teams that benefit from explicitly not having perfect IVs as well, so there's that aspect as well.
    Hidden Power would also be influenced if IVs were completely removed, although they could possibly use something else to determine the move's type, like natures.

    I think you mentioned this as being homogenizing earlier? It probably is, although I would argue that problem would exist with or without Hyper Training due to hacking. But the initial game experience isn't going to be that way since you won't have perfect IV Pokemon for the bulk of the main story. You can also battle online before your Pokemon reaches level 100 so there's always going to be a few challengers who aren't decked out with perfect IVs in each stat.

    To me it doesn't really seem any different than collecting heart scales or colored shards. We also don't know much about how we obtain Bottlecaps so it might not be all that boring. There might be some sort of game we can play to earn extra ones. (I'm definitely hoping for this, the more mini-games the better!)
     

    Caaethil

    #1 Greninja Fan
    501
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    7
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  • And this is EXACTLY why Hyper Training is a thing. So you can make any Pokemon you want able to keep up with other competitively raised Pokemon.
    I KNOW. Can I ask, are you reading my posts in full? Because if you go into the post you just quoted, you'll find this part:

    Okay, I think you're genuinely misunderstanding me here. It's not so much a hyper-realistic system that I want. What I want is a system that feels unique and interesting. The only thing about IVs that are unique and interesting to me is that they make Pokemon seem more like living things, mirroring a concept like genes. It's obviously much simpler and has certain changes for gameplay purposes, but it's fine because it's still a unique feature which has some level of depth. When it's homogenised to the point where it's just EVs under another name, there's nothing to like.

    It's cool and all they're opening the doors to more players, but what about this is fun gameplay? Is there not a better way to do this? What purpose do IVs even serve as a mechanic anymore? Wouldn't it be better to scrap them and make EVs as fun as possible by changing them up?
     
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    777
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    16
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    • Seen Mar 11, 2023
    I'd argue that EVs and IVs are still distinct enough to be considered different, both conceptually and from a gameplay perspective.

    EVs are all about growth and experience. They are earned during the training process, awarded for every opponent your Pokemon defeats. This means the values change after every battle. Pokemon master specific stats by battling other Pokemon that specialize in those stats, essentially learning from experience. EVs allow a Pokemon to hone in on a particular skillset, becoming a specialist in the stats that count the most. It's a very dynamic system. Right from Level 1, EVs are influenced by the way you actively choose to train your Pokemon.

    IVs, conversely, represent a Pokemon's innate and static potential. IVs are rigid values that can be attained by breeding, but remain unchanged throughout a Pokemon's training, setting hard individual limitations for the Pokemon. Hyper Training seems to represent the capacity to break those limits, attaining full potential through sheer willpower. But, since it can only be achieved once a Pokemon has reached its maximum level, it serves as a sort of climactic conclusion to a Pokemon's training (rather than an ongoing part of the process like EVs).

    In all honestly, the concept fits right in with Pokemon's optimistic outlook on individual potential. NPCs throughout the series have repeatedly enforced the idea that even "weak" Pokemon can overcome their limitations through training, that no Pokemon is worthless, that any Pokemon can become "strong" with enough personal investment. This has always been a major theme in Pokemon, but the moral always fell flat in the face of IVs (since there was literally no reason to bother training a Pokemon with bad IVs). Conceptually, Hyper Training is a pretty solid solution to this problem.

    I'll admit, I'm not sure if it's the best solution from a gameplay perspective. We still don't know how bottle caps are obtained, or how the "training" is actually done (maybe there's a mini-game or something?) Maybe it'll be a fun interactive process, or a challenge to work towards. Maybe it'll be completely straightforward and boring. Who's to say, at this point? I'd be eager to hear some more alternatives, though. Removing IVs altogether would cause more problems than it would solve, and the only other thing I can think of would be?? making IV breeding even easier?? Idk, man.
     

    skyburial

    Orca Hype
    892
    Posts
    9
    Years
  • Things Hyper Training stands to improve:

    - Acquiring a 6IV Ditto, or even one of every nature, legitimately
    - Manipulating IV's of legends, mitigating the countless hours required to soft reset for the right IV's under the current system
    - As long as the player has Pokémon with Synchronize for nature hunting, this promotes the use of in-game teams in competitive play.

    What it cannot do:
    - Eliminate the requirement to breed. Hyper Training cannot provide Hidden Abilities, nor can Ability Capsules. It cannot provide egg moves or infant-learned moves like Volt Tackle.
    - Change the verification process for hack checks to entirely remove the goodwill/scout's honor elements, false positives and other various coding discrepancies from the current system.

    Lowering the barriers to entry for competitive play is a great idea. As they are the brain child of Junichi Masuda, I don't anticipate that IV's will retire as long as he remains with Game Freak. This also will not eliminate the use of action replays and PKHex from the competitive scene, but it will at least remove some of the disparity between players who are dead set on using legitimate Pokémon instead of settling on ones that are possibly or certainly only legal, and not legitimate. I imagine there is a conversation ongoing between the folks at TPCi who want to grow their competitive scene and the folks at GF who want to preserve their pet projects beyond their logical sunset period. Hyper Training occurs to me as a compromise between these two parties.

    I'm not really motivated to sift through the squabble in this thread to find the post about bottlecap rarity's ties with Magearna, however something worthy of note is that the publication talking about the bottlecap it carries denotes it as a silver bottlecap, which is distinct from what I'd assume to be your run-of-the-mill trash can fare and most likely manipulates IV's somehow differently than a standard cap. I personally believe it will act like a reset bag or reduction tool for hidden power types. It's all speculative at this point though.

    Finally, I'd like to mention that items like this tend to have an inherent RNG within repeating terrain objects. Just through my first standard playthrough of ORAS, I must have proc'd 14 or 15 Heart Scales just by smashing every rock I saw in the exploration of Hoenn, and this carried my team building for the first half of 2015. Don't assume the worst, guys, RNG can be your friend too.
     
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