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Bernie Sanders supporter fires on congressional members at GOP baseball practice

Trev

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    Maybe this is just me, but I think it's healthier to separate the individuals/groups from the larger organization. I don't blame the Democratic Party or Bernie Sanders for this shooter's actions, because I know neither of them would actually advocate for the shooting of their political opponents. I also don't think that a single contributor's opinion submitted to HuffPo represents the entire news organization (contributors often don't work for HuffPo).

    The reason there's no need to include the shooter's political alignment, at least not in the headline, is because people are very inclined to leap to generalized conclusions based on the actions of a single person (yes, both sides do this, I'm aware, please don't tell me what I already know).

    Spoiler: This is about the play, but since this topic isn't about that, I hid it to stay on-topic
    As for the play, just stop assuming that it's some kind of death threat or call to action to kill Trump. The play was literally advocating against violence. Here's a snippet regarding the murder from a Guardian article (emphasis mine):

    But when Caesar?s enemies took out their knives and killed the Trump-like leader on the senate floor, no one was laughing.

    For a moment, there was absolute silence in the outdoor theater of nearly 2,000 people. The conspirators onstage themselves seemed overcome. One of the assassins tried to shout a triumphant slogan, ?Liberty!? or ?Justice!?, but the words came out flat, drained of any meaning. Blood was on Caesar?s shirt, knife gashes in his blazer, blood pooling on the floor.

    All the rhetoric about Caesar?s ambition, the danger he had posed to the republic, suddenly seemed worthless. There was only the horror of violence, the shock of it, even to the men and women who had plotted it and carried it out.

    ...

    For anyone who has seen the Public?s production ? or read Julius Caesar ? the message is not particularly ambiguous. Julius Caesar is not a pro-assassination play.

    ?Our production of Julius Caesar in no way advocates violence towards anyone,? a Public Theater spokeswoman said in a statement. ?Shakespeare?s play, and our production, make the opposite point: those who attempt to defend democracy by undemocratic means pay a terrible price and destroy the very thing they are fighting to save.

    The problem is that people automatically assume that any depiction of death means that they're calling for the death of whoever that person is. Art is always this complex, and this isn't the first time theatre has done something like that. Don't make rash assumptions about the production just because the Trump-like MC was murdered. You have to actually understand the purpose.
     

    Varius

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  • I am for a neutral state, in which the laws of the land apply equally to all citizens, and is not set on a foundation of inequity to rights based on identity. I fail to see how that is an extreme, maybe extremely neutral. I am against identity politics because to favor law, policy, and culture that values a particular set of attributes is radicalizing identitarian ideology.
    I'm not calling you extreme, I'm saying you are defending extremist rhetoric from your side due to political tribalism. You cannot deny that the extremists within your ranks are being roused by rhetoric such as Tim Kaine's "fight in the streets", the constant calls for a democratically elected leader's removal of power, the constant false equivalencies to Fascism, or any other thing I have already mentioned. You do not understand that if you do not self-police your political party, extremist elements will act out. Such is the case of many movements within this country.

    Also, I do not assume your political stance. I assume you are critical of resistance to an equitable state, of which demands relentless political resistance. I never state that you are a Republican, rather I clearly state that you are anti-resistance by claiming Trump is being villified. Your assuming that I am assuming.

    Then you continue to backtrack by stating you are not against anti-discrimination rhetoric and resistance; however, you claim Trump has been unfairly vilified as if to say the level of threat to equity posed is trivial. So which is it?
    Except you just explained that you did. You assumed I was anti-resistance when, in fact, I am against BOTH sides of the damned argument because they are trying to justify each other's violence by crying wolf about everything they hate about the other side, trying to fit a narrative into anything, are uncompromising, and will find anything to justify not condemning their sides' violence and rhetoric. If I condemn both sides, does that mean that I want your state or am I somehow some alt-Right scumbag that you insinuate in your last paragraph? You see, I am afraid that the left of this country is leading this country into a path where the state will being taken over by a right-wing authoritarian through increasing violence, just like in Italy and Germany. What will you do when your extremist buddies finally try their revolution for real? All it takes is Trump to start martial law and we become a tinpot dictatorship and you don't want to self-police rhetoric from your side to prevent people from becoming extremist?

    The birther movement was accompanied by villifying the president as a Muslim terrorist, without any support. To base dislike based on FALSEHOOD is not justified villification. Do you not understand the point. Whereas Trump's supposed "vilification" was of his own doing. I am stating that your claim that said vilification by the resistance is someone unjustified is representing complicity to an authoritarian advancing white christian nationalism and downplaying the unwarranted vilification of President Obama. I of course, like many have points of contention with President Obama, but certainly we can see that in many regards his vilification was based on myth, whereas Donald Trump's action are having a negative impact on large groups of people's lives.
    Again, by a fringe group that wasn't supported by the entirety of the GOP, but mainly Neocons and Paleocons. No one in this country deserves vilification on a level in which there are constant calls for his removal of power, threats to him and his family, or to justify attacks on him, his supporters, or politicians with similar views. This is not a country of savagery; yet neither party has the moral high-ground and neither party will condemn anything that they've done wrong. Thus, it is fit to say we are becoming a country of such description. We're all stuck in a tribe and whenever we see someone not conforming to that tribe's rules, they are cast out as a vagabond. At what point will both parties stop before an actual Fascist union is brought upon the United States?

    Also, Trump has yet to do anything that really "discriminates" people to begin with. Unless you count his immigration ban "discriminatory" despite the fact that it's not even a blanket Muslim ban and targets countries deemed by the Obama administration as dangerous. Deporting illegals is also not discriminatory because they aren't legally in the country. So, is he really advancing this "ideology" you are speaking?

    Moreover, the President is utilizing the racist foundation of American Politics when he makes claims that illegal immigrants are rapists since he is hopping onto the right-wing rhetoric that Hispanic men are part of a sexually violent culture. It is naive to say the least, and demonstrative of your complicity to racism when you defend the President's (then presidential candidate) words by stating that racism is not related to . Let's not also forget that during the first debate, Trump was asked to speak about race relations, and the very first words out of his mouth were "law and order". He is reducing people to the label of criminals as central to their identity. Let's not also forget Muslim=terrorist, which is again a primarily brown group. He is purposely targeting groups that are phenotypically non-Caucasian for the purpose of constructing a white Christian nationalist movement of which religion, race, and nationalism all play central roles. Your defense of the President speaks volumes to either your naivete that race has nothing to do with nationalism and religion, or you are a complicit racist-apologist. I fail to see how ignorance to inequity or conscious racism is at all compatible with actual libertarianism seeing as though inequity affords some negative liberties and some fewer negative liberty, and to defend the President is to be for that disparity of liberty. You can say you are not politically affiliated all you want, but to not be against the president's racism, or go as far as defending his racism, makes you culpable of discrimination and anti-liberty.
    Or he's just saying that illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crimes because they got here illegally, and not because of a "cultural" thing as you seem to claim. But sure, you can project your own racism into the mix. Even then, culture is not a race and the terminology you're looking for is xenophobia. Also, calling for "law and order" in regards to race relations is not saying someone's identity is equivalent to that of a criminal either.

    Secondly, nationalism does INDEED have nothing to do with race. Ethnonationalism does, but not nationalism because it is either cultural nationalism or civic nationalism. Donald Trump is a cultural nationalist, not an ethnonationalist. Therefore, he is more likely to be xenophobic than racist. That doesn't exclude him from anything he did in the past (such as discrimination at his businesses), but people do change.

    I never said I was against Trump's racism, xenophobia, etc. I just said that his rhetoric was mainly xenophobia than actual racism and that the rest of your accusations can definitely be debated (as in yes). You're assuming I'm some racist-apologist by tribal delusion alone. If you read through this, I see nothing hinting towards racist-apologia. However, since I'm a dissident to your political ideology, you've got to use any form of buzzword to make me look bad.

    The resistance is justified toward restoring equity, whereas the anti-resistance is not justified in defending or even moderating the degree of inequity. To be a centrist would mean what exactly in this sense??? To actually be far-left would require that minorities want to have more rights and power than non-minorities. To view our the resistance movement as radical to the left is only a relativistic perspective which creates a narrative that there are two groups of dueling ideologues. In actuality, to dismantle a state of inequity is merely to dismantle radical identarian ideology, and let pluralism (non-hegemony) be the reigning "anti-ideology". Neutrality is not an extreme in an absolute sense. The rhetoric needs to continue to be strong on the left and relentless.
    To be far-left is not this; you must be extremely naive. You see, there is this thing called Marxism and the last time I checked, Marxists had equal rights for all as well as equal oppression under the law by an authoritarian government when they're "stateless" society is actually set up. The Resistance's rhetoric is being used by these extremist groups to justify their violence, which in turn the far-Right will use that violence to justify their own.

    You see, in this country, we are heading towards Fascism. Social Security will be insolvent by 2034, the GOP's tax plan is set to send our economy down the crapper again, and political strife is rising as extremist groups are also rising. Once Social Security becomes insolvent and the GOP ruins our economy, it will bring prime conditions for the rise of Marxism combine with a Red Scare as well as a huge slight to national pride. ALL of these bring conditions in which Fascism will grow. Donald Trump will not be the face of American Fascism, but someone much more insidious. But obviously we shouldn't self-police ourselves to prevent extremist rhetoric from radicalizing people because it's our side and not those nasty SJWs/Alt-Reichers, amirite?
     
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    Read the plethora of neo-marxist (Critical theory/existentialism) literature that is more akin to the modern day progressive movement.

    I don't have time to reinterate work from Rawls, Max Weber, Foucault, Habermas, etc. Marxist theory is a rudimentary but foundational to the development of liberal thought. Critical theorists go one step further than , but remain compatible with Marx by addressing ideology and economics. Critical theorists bridge together religion, identitarian ideology (masculinity, race, sexuality, ethnicity, etc.), new technology in communicating information, among others that influence consciousness and the ability to truly exercise choice.

    By comparing the left to "Marxism" is flat-out ignorant. Almost as ignorant as claiming Trump is not have discriminatory force as a head of State by comparing brown and black people to criminals as I have already explained.

    Also, nationalism and racism have nothing to do with each other.????!?!? .*cough cough* ever heard of white nationalism *cough cough*


    You claim that you are against BOTH sides, including the side of resistance, thus you are anti-resistance logically speaking. You cannot be against resistance without being for the status quo, such as white/male/Christian/hetero-normative hegemony.

    I just can't with your delusions. Read some good critical theory and then you can comprehend why resistance exists.
     
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    Nah

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    A question for those of you who think that "Bernie Sanders supporter" shouldn't be in the title and/or mentioned at all: Would you say the same thing if it was instead a Trump supporter who shot at Democrats at a baseball practice?
     
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    A question for those of you who think that "Bernie Sanders supporter" shouldn't be in the title and/or mentioned at all: Would you say the same thing if it was instead a Trump supporter who shot at Democrats at a baseball practice?

    I think that it is pertinent as did Bernie Sanders. He did not simply ignore the event nor did he claim that it was unfair of the media to highlight that the shooter was a supporter of his. Rather, as Sanders did, we need to explain the importance of resistance, and why this individual was actually hindering resistance and condemn these actions to ensure resistance persists and flawed acts of resistance are condemned as shameful and far from conscious-raising.

    Also, I think the contrast between Sanders and Trump in this regard could not be greater. Trump becomes defensive and evasive, and does not try to curtail acts of violence from his supporters. (he in fact has encouraged it)
     
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    Sword Master

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  • You claim that you are against BOTH sides, including the side of resistance, thus you are anti-resistance logically speaking. You cannot be against resistance without being for the status quo, such as white/male/Christian/hetero-normative hegemony.

    Yes you can be against both sides, it doesn't specifically state that being against resistance makes you a racist, straight, white male or their so called hegemony. You are starting to sound like "either you're with me or against me".
     

    Varius

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  • Read the plethora of neo-marxist (Critical theory/existentialism) literature that is more akin to the modern day progressive movement.

    Antifa is decidedly anarcho-communist/anarcho-syndicalist. Therefore, is it really a stretch to call them Marxist considering they are literally a branch of Communism? Your extremists are clad in black-bloc uniform waving black and red flags, destroying property and targeting people over political beliefs. This video by Tim Pool shows an example of them attacking crowds.

    By comparing the left to "Marxism" is flat-out ignorant. Almost as ignorant as claiming Trump is not have discriminatory force as a head of State by comparing brown and black people to criminals as I have already explained.
    Your extremists are Marxists, It is an apt comparison in regards to extremism and hardly ignorant, and if you cannot accept that, then you have no grounds to say that the extreme right-wing are Alt-Right, when factually, they are.

    Also, nationalism and racism have nothing to do with each other.????!?!? .*cough cough* ever heard of white nationalism *cough cough*

    Secondly, nationalism does INDEED have nothing to do with race. Ethnonationalism does, but not nationalism because it is either cultural nationalism or civic nationalism.
    Golly gee, it's almost as if ethnonationalism and nationalism are two different things! Better ignore the existence of civic nationalism and cultural nationalism and then claim all nationalism is regarding race to be disingenuous.

    You claim that you are against BOTH sides, including the side of resistance, thus you are anti-resistance logically speaking. You cannot be against resistance without being for the status quo, such as white/male/Christian/hetero-normative hegemony.
    Non-sequitur. My political doctrine specifically wants to change the status quo to a secular, militarist, federal, technocratic semi-direct democracy. Last time I checked, our politicians are not legally required to have served the military or be in any scientific field (being inherently against religion). My doctrine also calls for civic nationalism, and last time I checked, calling for unity between all peoples within the republic would be against the christian/white identitarian bullshit the Christian Right want.

    If you are still deluded in thinking that being against both movements equals being status quo, you are wrong. You are thinking in general collectivist thoughts, in which both the parasites of Communism and Fascism dwell.

    I just can't with your delusions. Read some good critical theory and then you can comprehend why resistance exists.
    >implying that I don't understand why the resistance is up and about
    >all i've been saying is that collectivists from both sides are using the extremist rhetoric to justify their violence
    >already know that most democratic moderates are against trump because of what he ran for

    Maybe it's because your thinly-veiled projections don't work on someone who's political doctrine is not within the realms of conventional politics? You are proving my point right now. I am your enemy because I don't support your rhetoric and must be status quo despite the fact that my doctrine is inherently against it.
     
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    Yes you can be against both sides, it doesn't specifically state that being against resistance makes you a racist, straight, white male.

    Strawman much?

    Being against resistance which seeks to combat inequity means that you are in support of inequity.

    To be against black people achieving equity is racist.

    To be against homosexual people achieving equity is heteronormative.

    To be against women's equity is sexist.

    You do not have to be straight/white/male to be any of those things.

    You also can be an ally of minorities achieving equity if you are a straight/white/male.

    You can choose to be for or against equity or inequity it is a binary term. You cannot be against both logically.
     

    Varius

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  • Strawman much?

    Being against resistance which seeks to combat inequity means that you are in support of inequity.

    To be against black people achieving equity is racist.

    To be against homosexual people achieving equity is heteronormative.

    To be against women's equity is sexist.

    You can choose to be for or against equity or inequity it is a binary term. You cannot be against both logically.

    I am against violent rhetoric, not inequity. I see violent rhetoric, I see a violent movement. I am but a simple person.

    Civic Nationalism calls for unity between all groups within a country, and therefore, that would require equity. Please try again.

    My political doctrine says that the state should not care about the person's individual life and should not regulate it. Therefore, homosexuals can achieve equality.

    See my first point on Civic Nationalism. As I said, I'm against violent rhetoric and will not support a cause if it has said belligerent rhetoric, as well as people who do not see individuals as individuals but see people as a collective. You are turning it into an "us versus them" thing and you don't want to accept that. This is fueling attacks just like this one.
     
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    Trev

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    A question for those of you who think that "Bernie Sanders supporter" shouldn't be in the title and/or mentioned at all: Would you say the same thing if it was instead a Trump supporter who shot at Democrats at a baseball practice?

    I would also think that's inappropriate. We shouldn't generalize supporters of X candidate. Or anyone, for that matter. To clarify, I think a more appropriate way to address his political alignment is by writing in the article, "the shooting appeared to be politically motivated, as the shooter frequented various forums that indicated his preference for candidate Bernie Sanders, while also indicating his dislike of President Donald Trump."

    As I said, I'm against violent rhetoric and will not support a cause if it has said belligerent rhetoric.

    What's your opinion on the Stonewall Riots then? It was pivotal to the beginning of the LGBT+ rights movement and it was extremely violent, for quite an extensive period of time. (I realize this is irrelevant to the current conversation but I was just curious).
     
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    Hands

    I was saying Boo-urns
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    A question for those of you who think that "Bernie Sanders supporter" shouldn't be in the title and/or mentioned at all: Would you say the same thing if it was instead a Trump supporter who shot at Democrats at a baseball practice?

    Unless Trump had specifically said something that would incite violence (hint, he has several times) then yeah, I'd say that mentioning him isn't relevant. Bernie has never incited violence and this was clearly spurred on by the abysmal behaviour of the republican party as opposed to any motivation linked to Sanders.
     
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  • Unless Trump had specifically said something that would incite violence (hint, he has several times) then yeah, I'd say that mentioning him isn't relevant. Bernie has never incited violence and this was clearly spurred on by the abysmal behaviour of the republican party as opposed to any motivation linked to Sanders.

    I mean, it was still violence from the left to the right we can't change that. I don't think it really matters that the Republican party is terrible, it doesn't make sinking to the lows we generally attribute to the other side okay.

    This incident was terrible and we shouldn't try and cover that up by saying that it was "because the Republicans did X". Shooting at people is still wrong.
     

    Varius

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  • Unless Trump had specifically said something that would incite violence (hint, he has several times) then yeah, I'd say that mentioning him isn't relevant. Bernie has never incited violence and this was clearly spurred on by the abysmal behaviour of the republican party as opposed to any motivation linked to Sanders.

    Why is it clearly spurred by the "abysmal behavior of the Republican Party" exactly? Last time I checked, the Republican Party hasn't called for violence. Trump has said things that can be seen as inciting violence (such as paying for someone's legal bills), but the general mainstream Republican Party has said nothing that would spur any form of violent resistance.

    Meanwhile, we've got extremist groups such as Antifa and Redneck Revolt growing in numbers with a good bit of mainstream media always spitting out this "resist" narrative that is aiding in fueling their growth. His motivation was based on left-wing political views and the wanting to resist the "fascist" Trump.
     

    Hands

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    I mean, it was still violence from the left to the right we can't change that. I don't think it really matters that the Republican party is terrible, it doesn't make sinking to the lows we generally attribute to the other side okay.

    This incident was terrible and we shouldn't try and cover that up by saying that it was "because the Republicans did X". Shooting at people is still wrong.

    That's absolutely subjective. The repubs have ruined millions of lives via their attacks against the welfare state, Obama's and against public and social programmes. Maybe the repubs will take mass shootings seriously now they've been on the receiving end of one.
     

    Varius

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  • That's absolutely subjective. The repubs have ruined millions of lives via their attacks against the welfare state, Obama's and against public and social programmes. Maybe the repubs will take mass shootings seriously now they've been on the receiving end of one.
    Dismantling a welfare state does not justify violence nor would it spur growing violence. The shooter had a clear political objective and it should be shown for people to know.
     

    Hands

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    Dismantling a welfare state does not justify violence

    that's subjective. Attacking the people you put into economic desperation via the banking crash and constant attacks on the middle and working class by removing their and their family members access to affordable health care and basic assistance with the cost of living is absolutely justification for retaliation in my eyes.

    nor would it spur growing violence.

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=a.....69i57j0l5.4471j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    i mean, you're outright wrong.

    The shooter had a clear political objective

    Did he? What are you basing this on? The fact he supported Sanders? It's easier for you to believe his acts were inspired by a center left socdem who promotes non violence than it is to consider this an act against the Republicans for their behaviour and (lack of) morals? His FB has very few mentions of Bernie, however it is full of criticisms of Trump and the GOP. Including the attacks on "obamacare".

    Did he read Marx? Maybe he was a fan of Malcolm X? Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Lenin, Mao or Robespierre? The link to Bernie is completely irrelevant to his actions.

    and it should be shown for people to know.

    well i mean anyone can check his fb and twitter and see how much this was based around the behaviour and actions of the Republican party as opposed to any inspiration from an old man who preaches calm protest.
     
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  • That's absolutely subjective. The repubs have ruined millions of lives via their attacks against the welfare state, Obama's and against public and social programmes. Maybe the repubs will take mass shootings seriously now they've been on the receiving end of one.

    It's not subjective. If this was an attack against a leftist you'd not be reacting the way you are. What's subjective is view point. Political violence is not okay and it's not a solution to the problem, it just gives the right justification
     

    Hands

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    It's not subjective. If this was an attack against a leftist you'd not be reacting the way you are. What's subjective is view point. Political violence is not okay and it's not a solution to the problem, it just gives the right justification

    If it was an attack against a leftist it'd likely be over them trying to better the lives of people, not make their lives worse. The Republicans have reaped what they've sown this time.
     

    Hands

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    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Burke said:
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    For those with any confusion, I do not support the idea of mass shootings however I feel zero sympathy for a borderline white supremacist like Scalise who has spent his voting life dedicated to lowering the quality of life for millions and, in the words of the eternal film icon Ivan Drago, if he dies, he dies.

    The man who shot Scalise done so directly because of Scalise and his party's behaviour and beliefs, had absolutely nothing to do with Sanders.

    http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Steve_Scalise.htm

    Scalise is an anti-women, anti lbgt, pro corporation, anti healthcare, anti poor, anti black self serving tosspot. This is why Gimmiepie's claim that I'd act differently if a leftist was shot is moot. I'd of acted differently if a less terrible person in any capacity or party was shot. Scalise has worked to damage the lives of millions, his life is forfeit as far as I'm concerned.
     
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