Marshadow Discussion

Can someone tell me why is this thing so popular in AG and Ubers again? It can't switch safely into anything and despite its awesome stab combo and high speed stat, to me it seems like some overglorified Darkrai (and without Dark Void/Hypnosis or Swords Dance to boot). Are people that scared of Arceus?

I've used Marshadow in AG and had a lot of trouble actually getting it into anything, having to predict Extreme Speeds or Swords Dances and switching straight into Shadow Force, then finding out how it couldn't always 2HKO Xern with Spectral Thief, that Mega Ray resisted its Close Combat, and that Arceus-DARK (which is weak to Close Combat) couldn't be always OHKOed even with SR. Even against Baton Pass teams Smeargle can switch in and nullify its Spectral Thief, then disable it with Spore.

The popularity likely stems from it being recently released--it's the shiny new toy for people to play with. If it turns out to not be amazing in Ubers and/or AG, it'll drop off in usage somewhere down the line. Or at least the novelty will wear off at some point.

edit: hold on, joke time:

Lots of Pokemon under perform in Ubers.

They're still too good for OU.

KorpiklaaniVodka v2.0 said:

Can someone tell me why is this thing so popular in AG and Ubers again? It can't switch safely into anything and despite its awesome stab combo and high speed stat, to me it seems like some overglorified Darkrai (and without Dark Void/Hypnosis or Swords Dance to boot). Are people that scared of Arceus?

I've used Marshadow in AG and had a lot of trouble actually getting it into anything, having to predict Extreme Speeds or Swords Dances and switching straight into Shadow Force, then finding out how it couldn't always 2HKO Xern with Spectral Thief, that Mega Ray resisted its Close Combat, and that Arceus-DARK (which is weak to Close Combat) couldn't be always OHKOed even with SR. Even against Baton Pass teams Smeargle can switch in and nullify its Spectral Thief, then disable it with Spore.

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Just because something has its checks and counters, it doesn't mean it's not broken. This is a common misbelief that I've seen in the competitive community, often to justify dropping a Pokemon from a higher tier. As stated before, Marshadow is banned because of its massive base 125 speed and its ability to threaten set-up sweepers by stealing boosts. As well as that, it has unresisted coverage on top of Technician-boosted priority, so it can punch holes in nearly everything, as well as an awesome movepool to abuse it with. Darkrai? Close Combat. Alakazam? Shadow Sneak.

You should also remember that despite the fact that Mega Rayquaza got banned from Ubers and is in its own tier, a ban to Ubers is dependent on how broken it is in OU, not how well it performs in Ubers. Remember that Ubers is still a banlist first, and a tier second, not the other way round. That's why the likes of Deoxys-N and Reshiram are still up in the tier despite being outclassed in many roles - they're too strong for OU. In this case, Marshadow essentially forced people to run the likes of scarfed Tapu Lele, putting a strain on teambuilding.

Rabinov said:

This mostly sounds like it's a case of you not knowing quite yet how to use it, as opposed to you not being able to switch into anything because it 'sucks'.

Regarding why it got banished to at least Ubers: A Pokémon with base 125 Attack and Speed (therefore outspeeding basically every Pokémon in the tier) with access to STAB priority, the ability to steal any stat boosts a Pokémon has before attacking whilst also sporting good coverage. This Pokémon will take a lot of names in opposing teams or at least break them enough for easy sweeps from other Pokémon.

It may not necessarily be able to hold its own in the Ubers/AG environment maybe? I don't know I've not played enough recently to be able to fully analyse this, but it seems the tangent you're looking at is why it's not in OU, due to it not performing (for you) in the above tiers. Which isn't how things really work, it gets shunted along the tiers until it fits into one where it won't necessarily blow the tier's metagame apart.

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Frozocrone said:

Lots of Pokemon under perform in Ubers.

They're still too good for OU.

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HeroLinik said:

Just because something has its checks and counters, it doesn't mean it's not broken. This is a common misbelief that I've seen in the competitive community, often to justify dropping a Pokemon from a higher tier. As stated before, Marshadow is banned because of its massive base 125 speed and its ability to threaten set-up sweepers by stealing boosts. As well as that, it has unresisted coverage on top of Technician-boosted priority, so it can punch holes in nearly everything, as well as an awesome movepool to abuse it with. Darkrai? Close Combat. Alakazam? Shadow Sneak.

You should also remember that despite the fact that Mega Rayquaza got banned from Ubers and is in its own tier, a ban to Ubers is dependent on how broken it is in OU, not how well it performs in Ubers. Remember that Ubers is still a banlist first, and a tier second, not the other way round. That's why the likes of Deoxys-N and Reshiram are still up in the tier despite being outclassed in many roles - they're too strong for OU. In this case, Marshadow essentially forced people to run the likes of scarfed Tapu Lele, putting a strain on teambuilding.

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where did i ask why is marshadow uber -_-

I don't think Marshadow is the right Pokemon to use a Bulk Up set, as almost anything in ubers can take a +1 attack despite its great stab combo and proceed to revenge kill it with its mediocre bulk by Uber standards. I would rather use some Calm Mind Arceus forme.

I am certainly NOT trying to kill MegaRay with it btw, though I guess it can perform well against SD variants (which I feel like are inferior to DD anyway) but ExtremeKiller Arceus can always just run a Chople Berry and OHKO it. (admittedly this could be due to Marshadow's rise but I digress) I prefer using Tapu Koko over Marshadow in AG.

do we really need a thread for "i think marshadow is bad"

Rabinov said:

For reference

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That doesn't mean I asked why is marshadow uber

If you get low usage in Ubers you are still uber, it's not like OU and UU, I don't support Marshadow for OU for the same reason I don't support Reshiram for OU, and Marshadow is popular anyway

KorpiklaaniVodka v2.0 said:

If you get low usage in Ubers you are still uber, it's not like OU and UU

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I literally said this earlier up the topic, it's because Ubers isn't an actual tier, but a banlist. For a Pokemon to get banished to Ubers, it needs to be dependent on how broken it is in OU, not how well it performs in Ubers. Even with Mega Rayquaza getting banned from Ubers and with Smogon making Ubers a "tier", it's still a banlist first and a tier second.

HeroLinik said:

I literally said this earlier up the topic, it's because Ubers isn't an actual tier, but a banlist. For a Pokemon to get banished to Ubers, it needs to be dependent on how broken it is in OU, not how well it performs in Ubers. Even with Mega Rayquaza getting banned from Ubers and with Smogon making Ubers a "tier", it's still a banlist first and a tier second.

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You missed my point.

How about we use this thread to discuss Marshadow's viability and usefulness in general?

Anyway, Marshadow doesn't need good defenses or resistances in order to function well. It's a revenge killer and wallbreaker that's difficult to wall. Mega Lucario and Greninja in OU are in a similar situations and they get by just fine because they're strong offensive threats.

wolf said:

Mega Lucario...in OU

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Mega Lucario is still banned.

HeroLinik said:

Mega Lucario is still banned.

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I don't think he was implying that Mega Lucario was OU but rather it and Greninja serve similar roles as Marshadow in their respective tiers.

How well does Alolan-Muk serve as a check to Marshadow?

Aurora said:

Alolan Muk can't switch in:
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 316-372 (76.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Shadow Sneak never does over 33% to Marshadow. Knock Off does a fair bit but that doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things since you aren't switching Marshadow into Alolan Muk anyway. If anything, Marshadow's matchup against Alolan Muk is superior to Alolan Muk's matchup against Marshadow.

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Is it obvious I don't Ubers very often? xD

but why would i use marshadow in the first place to run a bulk up set? instead of say calm mind arceus-ghost. Sure, Ghostceus doesn't have stab fighting-type attacks but unlike marshadow it doesn't get ohkoed by everything and then some, also gets substitute, can run a z-move as well, and survives spectral thief with ease. Meanwhile, Arceus gets so many things Marshadow could only dream of. Arceus actually has access to recovery moves, gets refresh and magic coat, gets thunder wave, gets will-o-wisp, can run bulkier spreads, can use fire blast and thunder.

Ghostceus forces a lot of switches too like Marshadow does, people think it's the Swords Dance set and switch to their Primal Groudon only for Arceus to set up Sub or CM and OHKO/severely damage with Never-Ending Nightmare

KorpiklaaniVodka v2.0 said:

but why would i use marshadow in the first place to run a bulk up set? instead of say calm mind arceus-ghost. Sure, Ghostceus doesn't have stab fighting-type attacks but unlike marshadow it doesn't get ohkoed by everything and then some, also gets substitute, can run a z-move as well, and survives spectral thief with ease. Meanwhile, Arceus gets so many things Marshadow could only dream of. Arceus actually has access to recovery moves, gets refresh and magic coat, gets thunder wave, gets will-o-wisp, can run bulkier spreads, can use fire blast and thunder.

Ghostceus forces a lot of switches too like Marshadow does, people think it's the Swords Dance set and switch to their Primal Groudon only for Arceus to set up Sub or CM and OHKO/severely damage with Never-Ending Nightmare

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lol @ the attempted re-purpose of this thread, that's totally going to work given the op!

i have no idea what you're trying to get at here. if this "why do people use marshadow xd?" is in earnest, i found plenty of answers by checking smogon for like three minutes. but assuming it's just a rhetorical question, at least make an argument instead of some half-baked shitposts about "oh it can't ohko arceus-dark haha what trash" b/c my little smogon search (just the pending analysis + vr posts) + aurora's post at least made sense to someone who has never played a game of sm ubers on their life. cherrypicking some pseudo-calcs or blanket statements (tons of mons need to rk to come in, expand on this point at least a little omg) is totally useless for any actual discussion. why should i care that arceus-dark loses "only" 85% of its health from cc? and @ "why not just use arceus-ghost" even i can answer that--it lets you use a different arceus? seems kind of important doesn't it?

maybe if you didn't present every hot take you have in such skewed and incomplete terms--remember when fairies didn't hurt the viability of dragon-types? haha, awesome!--your arguments would pass the smell test to someone who doesn't even play your metagame. it's possible marshadow is bad, but not for the reasons presented here.

Anti said:

lol @ the attempted re-purpose of this thread, that's totally going to work given the op!

i have no idea what you're trying to get at here. if this "why do people use marshadow xd?" is in earnest, i found plenty of answers by checking smogon for like three minutes. but assuming it's just a rhetorical question, at least make an argument instead of some half-baked mukposts about "oh it can't ohko arceus-dark haha what trash" b/c my little smogon search (just the pending analysis + vr posts) + aurora's post at least made sense to someone who has never played a game of sm ubers on their life. cherrypicking some pseudo-calcs or blanket statements (tons of mons need to rk to come in, expand on this point at least a little omg) is totally useless for any actual discussion. why should i care that arceus-dark loses "only" 85% of its health from cc? and @ "why not just use arceus-ghost" even i can answer that--it lets you use a different arceus? seems kind of important doesn't it?

maybe if you didn't present every hot take you have in such skewed and incomplete terms--remember when fairies didn't hurt the viability of dragon-types? haha, awesome!--your arguments would pass the smell test to someone who doesn't even play your metagame. it's possible marshadow is bad, but not for the reasons presented here.

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fairies didn't hurt the viability of SALAMENCE, not dragons lol. And btw Mence as far as I know became a lot better in SM.

I no longer trust viability ranking threads because I don't like them, like a-rank deo-A? i would only use it with tapu lele support, or use SOMETHING ELSE that can take a hit (Mewtwo). Or even Pheromosa because at least that thing has something more valuable to me early-game (Rapid Spin, U-turn). I prefer not being ohkoed by extremespeed after I KO something with psychoboost, I'd rather just Calm Mind up, ko something with +1 psystrike, and threaten the rest of my opponent's team. I'm an advocate for bulkier teams in Ubers and AG.

And why should you NOT care when arceus-dark could simply roast your team with its CM set lol? A lot of teams are very unprepared for it nowadays due to people loving arceus-ground, which giratina-o for example can check fairly easily, and guess who sets up on gira-O? I guess Fairyceus also being on the rise gives it trouble, though.

Me as an anything goes player would rather use CM arceus-ghost over marshadow

CM Arceus-Ghost lacks the immediate power that Marshadow has, which is useful vs lots of stuff like Yveltal. Arceus-Ghost can't use Life Orb to improve its power or it'll have to forego Sub and lose to Chansey, Blissey, etc. Arceus-Ghost's Focus Blast is unreliable and has no STAB. Arceus-Ghost can't revenge kill Extreme Killer or any other SD users as effectively. Arceus-Ghost is walled by Ho-Oh, while Rock Tomb Marshadow manages to get by it. CM Arceus-Ghost doesn't have priority. Marshadow doesn't have to worry about Speed ties with Arceus and Mega Salamence. The list goes on.

Anyway, I wanted to give this thread a second chance (sue me), but this discussion is still going around in circles. There are plenty of reasons to justify the use of Marshadow. It's fine if you don't think that's enough, but we don't need a thread whose sole purpose is for ranting about why they aren't good reasons.