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Echo Chambers in America

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    • Age 122
    • Seen Jan 27, 2019
    I'm talking mainly about America as I am pretty unfamiliar and unsure about other countries. Feel free to talk about them too.

    The echo chambers are definitely getting worse. What could be done to remedy this?

    And I'm not just talking about politics or some controversial topic, I'm talking about anything really. It happens on social media, news outlets, reddit, etc. People will all agree on one thing and despise something else with their guts. Some people get really crazy about their views too
     
    Last edited:

    Alexander Nicholi

    what do you know about computing?
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  • If this were the 1950s, I would just say two words, 'personal responsibility', and everyone would nod in agreeance as it was well-understood at the time. But in the age of the internet that's not really feasible, because you pretty much have to write a paragraph to have a chance at helping people understand a concept that was once taken for granted.

    While I cannot seem to locate it, there was an article I read from my Pocket the other day describing the addictive and dehumanising effects social media and online interaction in general has on human psychology and sociology.

    Simply put, people are worse at interacting with others online a lot of the time. The problems in recognising this are several:
    1. Much of the poorer reactions to things are quite inconsistent and translucent, and therefore largely go unnoticed and are hard to identify;
    2. Explaining the problems with how someone is acting is incredibly difficult, because it all makes sense in their head and there is no empathetic bridge to say otherwise;
    3. The echo chambers, as you call them, are a product of this disconnect, and they solidify said problems and set them into stone through collective confirmation biases.

    I think the primary cause for this is that online, we are not talking to anybody. All we are doing is writing notes to each other, or sometimes papers (like here), and a lot of the human interaction is completely lost in that process and there is no feasible way to replace it in a lot of circumstances. Because this is not a conversation, truly, our minds must simulate it as if it were one, so we can make sense of our situation and do our best to be sensible and rational. This often ends in disaster, as our minds must do the best they can to 'make up' whatever human interaction is absent, and because we all think differently we often tend to make up different situations surrounding a conversation and problems arise from that.

    In light of this insanity, many people feel a very natural need to cling to perceived similarities and like-mindedness, because on the internet there is no other way to actually bridge a feeling of common ground than to actually have the common ground in plain sight, often as an opinion on some subject or another. Because we don't feel inherently warm and connected to a scrap of text, we must find a way to rationally construe that in our own minds, and that's really difficult to do when all you have is said text. This is why opinions have become so sacred, and disagreements so nuclear - there is nothing else to really go on.

    When someone writes you a message, in their minds they're being honest and reasonable in the vast majority of cases, because that's how they naturally are. But after a point it becomes difficult to register one's own disinhibition, and even the best of us will start to write and say things that feel normal but register as unquestionable hallmarks of a complete asshole to everyone else, which would be made painfully clear if their text was put into a face-to-face spoken word and shown to people as if it were a real, two-way conversation.

    Still, I don't think that the often-cited Online Disinhibition Effect is a final explanation for things, not just because it's psychology (one of the murkiest fields of science we know), but because things are still so new and so incredibly volatile that humans need to think and talk about it more together. I certainly don't see the ODE as any kind of summary for why trolls exist online, or why people disagree so passionately over things they'd easily walk away from at home or in class. But it's a definite start on things, and my penchant for psychology makes me want to learn even more.
     
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  • I don't think you can blame social media. This was a problem that developed long before the rise of Twitter and Facebook. As far as the US goes I think you'd have started to see major signs of partisan echo chamber politics around maybe the Reagan era with it really kicking off around Clinton or George W. Bushes tenures.
     

    Vragon2.0

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  • I don't think you can blame social media. This was a problem that developed long before the rise of Twitter and Facebook. As far as the US goes I think you'd have started to see major signs of partisan echo chamber politics around maybe the Reagan era with it really kicking off around Clinton or George W. Bushes tenures.

    Even then, I can safely say social media is a pretty big contribution to the idea of echo chambers and whatnot. That much is safe to assume.

    Course, another question is, even if it was started in the Reagan era, how did it affect it then and how would that compare in intensity to now.

    Sure time wise and stuff wouldn't go well, but I think it's fair to compare and see how things got so bad along with way.
     
    25,538
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  • Even then, I can safely say social media is a pretty big contribution to the idea of echo chambers and whatnot. That much is safe to assume.

    Course, another question is, even if it was started in the Reagan era, how did it affect it then and how would that compare in intensity to now.

    Sure time wise and stuff wouldn't go well, but I think it's fair to compare and see how things got so bad along with way.

    I think with social media it's just a case of accessibility more than anything. Everyone has a door into the biggest echo chamber now and cat happily waltz right in where it used to b everyone had executive memberships to their own little echo chambers. It's not so much that people are less open to discussion or anything now, it's that all the lack of discussion is conglomerated in the same place. There's not a greater volume of noise but it seems louder because it's all in one place.
     

    Alexander Nicholi

    what do you know about computing?
    5,500
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    14
    Years
  • I don't think you can blame social media. This was a problem that developed long before the rise of Twitter and Facebook. As far as the US goes I think you'd have started to see major signs of partisan echo chamber politics around maybe the Reagan era with it really kicking off around Clinton or George W. Bushes tenures.
    Yeah, that wasn't what I was saying at all. It's an issue that's inherent to the online medium, and that's regardless of what software you may be using on that medium. Even mailing lists suffer from the fact that you're not actually talking to anybody.
     

    Vragon2.0

    Say it with me (Vray-gun)
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  • I think with social media it's just a case of accessibility more than anything. Everyone has a door into the biggest echo chamber now and cat happily waltz right in where it used to b everyone had executive memberships to their own little echo chambers. It's not so much that people are less open to discussion or anything now, it's that all the lack of discussion is conglomerated in the same place. There's not a greater volume of noise but it seems louder because it's all in one place.

    Perhaps, but I also think the whole communication on social media is a hybrid compared to how humans talk in real life. With discussions and whatnot, tone, gestures and the works are basics in communication, something social media doesn't have. Now is understandable why it doesn't have it, yes, but that doesn't really negate the fact that while on social media you don't have the obstacles real life convo has nor all the tools that exist in communication.

    I mean, sure social media isn't at fault for peep's behavior, but the issue is that it's a spawning ground for it. Peeps can be civil online or listen to others online, but like you said "Everyone has a door into the biggest echo chamber now and cat happily waltz right in where it used to b everyone had executive memberships to their own little echo chambers". This can create factions on site if you and will and it isn't helped with how fast us as a species get information from online. Not everyone takes a moment to back away and get more, when you get all that satisfies you at your fingertips.

    Also the before mentioned barriers of normal communication aren't there online. I'm certain not everyone would tell a person to "drink bleach" in real life and while I personally don't have a problem with the phrase, others might. Social media has the problem of enabling socializing without the context of the person. You don't get to see them, you don't get to walk up and introduce, you don't even have to find a common interest sometimes. It also, ruins any friendly gestures or actions that you can do in real life, but are stuck to typing only or image sharing in social media. Similar for depressing situations.

    Look, I think social media is an interesting invention that has so much potential, however I've seen a lot of drawbacks that come with it and frankly I have to dub it as an, "easier form of inferior communication". Echo Chambers have existed before yes, but it wasn't until chambers went online and everyone could get on them that it really become the giant it is today. I think it is fair not to blame social media for it all, but when looking at the actual invention I can't just say it isn't at fault in a decent amount. It's the tool yes, but the tool itself is a set for problems by default in how it handles communication and frankly that doesn't mix well with peeps when they don't have critical thinking skills, self discipline, or moderation.
     

    Alex

    what will it be next?
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    Echo chambers are just as prevalent offline as they are online. Who you choose to surround yourself with can effectively create an echo chamber. A lot of the complacency around Clinton winning the 2016 Presidential election was due to mainstream media essentially being an echo chamber. "Clinton has a 94% chance of winning" etc etc. Yeah, well, you forgot to check in with the other side of the political spectrum.

    Social media, and indeed any type of AI designed to serve you what they think you want, is designed as an echo chamber. People will happily read the posts from people they agree with, and ignore posts from people they disagree with. The AI knows this and will keep serving you what you want to read in order to get clicks. That's the problem, really. Take into account what the other side is saying and you'll get a clearer picture of their hopes, beliefs and convictions for voting the way they do. If all you do is surround yourself with the same opinions and points of view, you'll never understand the other side.

    All that can be done to mitigate echo chambers is to eliminate vitriol and judgement in arguments. People avoid opposing viewpoints for fear of being wrong, as if that makes them worse in some way. It happens to the best of us. Echo chambers are created by people themselves, willfully, to a fault. If everyone makes an effort to keep themselves informed on all fronts of the political spectrum, an echo chamber may become a thing of the past.
     

    Vragon2.0

    Say it with me (Vray-gun)
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  • Echo chambers are just as prevalent offline as they are online. Who you choose to surround yourself with can effectively create an echo chamber. A lot of the complacency around Clinton winning the 2016 Presidential election was due to mainstream media essentially being an echo chamber. "Clinton has a 94% chance of winning" etc etc. Yeah, well, you forgot to check in with the other side of the political spectrum.

    Social media, and indeed any type of AI designed to serve you what they think you want, is designed as an echo chamber. People will happily read the posts from people they agree with, and ignore posts from people they disagree with. The AI knows this and will keep serving you what you want to read in order to get clicks. That's the problem, really. Take into account what the other side is saying and you'll get a clearer picture of their hopes, beliefs and convictions for voting the way they do. If all you do is surround yourself with the same opinions and points of view, you'll never understand the other side.

    All that can be done to mitigate echo chambers is to eliminate vitriol and judgement in arguments. People avoid opposing viewpoints for fear of being wrong, as if that makes them worse in some way. It happens to the best of us. Echo chambers are created by people themselves, willfully, to a fault. If everyone makes an effort to keep themselves informed on all fronts of the political spectrum, an echo chamber may become a thing of the past.

    Even if echo chamber mentality is as prevalent offline as it is online, there is the point that "does this give more of a rise and influence to it." You bring up the whole Clinton thing and frankly the "media" and mainstream stuff really pushed that forwards. Peeps on youtube following only what they go with and whatnot.

    I don't disagree that peeps themselves are responsible, however I don't think that we can entirely ignore the effects the social media does to make this more prevalent. Is social media itself the problem, not in concept, however it is being handled poorly and peeps don't have the friction needed to have an good talk with others nor the need for traveling and whatnot.

    I think something missing for echo chambers in general, not just America, is the human mentality and how it is effected right now in this age. I think a lot of the problems going on are a lack of broadening perspective, responsibility and overall grasping the world around you. This isn't helped by the benefits social media has and thus I don't think it's enough to say that "it's just peeps" and call it a day. I mean, not saying we can get rid of social media "since well that's impractical", but there should be some form of human discipline when on it that I find is lacking in society worldwide.
     
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  • Media in general is a problem when the people tailoring what information you get have some kind of bias. You want people providing information to be as unbiased as possible. (Or, to set our standards a little lower, to have their biases be visible.)

    With social media they want clicks for their ad revenue and so they give you your tailor-made echo chamber via their magic algorithms. In some more traditional media outlets you still have the same desire for money (big corporate media), but money aside there biggest worry is cultural/political bias. In America we have a problem with talk radio (and its child, web radio) which many people see as the alternative to big corporate media, despite the fact that talk news doesn't have to abide by rules of balance (read about the FCC's fairness doctrine) or accuracy. You've got extremists like Rush Limbaugh and Alex Jones commanding millions of listeners. (But of course they're also mostly there for the ad money, too, so at its root it's no different.)

    If we didn't have big corporate media (which engenders mistrust with lots of people) people wouldn't run to different (but still dubious) sources of information. You could then rely relatively well on traditional media. But that beast is going the way of the dinosaur so you gotta have a really transparent policy when it comes to social media. Dunno if that'll become a think any time soon.
     
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    You want the people reporting the news to be non biased.
    If it's a talk show then it's up to the listener to determine what they listen to.
    Bringing back the fairness doctrine is a bad idea. It stifled discussion and as it stands now, would be impossible to enforce. You'd need a massive agency to listen to all the radio stations out there now. Plus, how do you determine fairness? What programs does it apply to?
     
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  • Bringing back the fairness doctrine is a bad idea. It stifled discussion and as it stands now, would be impossible to enforce. You'd need a massive agency to listen to all the radio stations out there now. Plus, how do you determine fairness? What programs does it apply to?

    I agree you can't put the genie back in the bottle. (Not the internet anyway. The FCC could still regulate traditional radio.) But generally the idea of fairness was that when you had a controversial subject you'd have to have opposing viewpoints and be fair in the eyes of the FCC. Obviously a lot of things would have to change with how the FCC and government are run before people would accept the decisions of regulators though.
     
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    I agree you can't put the genie back in the bottle. (Not the internet anyway. The FCC could still regulate traditional radio.) But generally the idea of fairness was that when you had a controversial subject you'd have to have opposing viewpoints and be fair in the eyes of the FCC. Obviously a lot of things would have to change with how the FCC and government are run before people would accept the decisions of regulators though.

    I disagree that there is any way for the FCC to monitor and enforce a fairness doctrine on the more than 30,000 radio stations currently operating in the US. I know what the idea was. Unfortunately, the idea rarely matches the implementation. Things would have to change with people themselves to have any chance of "fairness" working.

    All too often, groups that are meant to be free and open forums turn into muk holes by the users or mods. Either people who are anonymous act like terrible people and run off the decent or the mods act like tyrants and ban everyone they disagree with regardless of their behavior and you end up with no one disagreeing because they don't want to be banned.
     
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