DP Ash vs XY Ash Who's The Better Trainer
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Absolitetion
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Difficult to say...
I think XY Ash wins this by a slight margin as in DP he still had a few childish tweaks, though I think he may have made a bit more progress in Sinnoh than in Kalos.
I think XY Ash wins this by a slight margin as in DP he still had a few childish tweaks, though I think he may have made a bit more progress in Sinnoh than in Kalos.
CidHazard
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Counter shield strategy vs Mega Greninja... even tho I love the counter shield strategy of using offense as defense, Mega Greninja can easily sweep DP Ash's entire team on it's sheer blistering speed alone.
Based on being a better trainer tho... They're pretty even as far as i'm concerned, they do win the same way, using unorthodox strategies to counter their opponents move for the victory.
Based on being a better trainer tho... They're pretty even as far as i'm concerned, they do win the same way, using unorthodox strategies to counter their opponents move for the victory.
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pkmin3033
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DP Ash is the very obvious winner here.
Going up against members of the Elite Four - and holding his own for a time, too - and taking out TWO Legendaries in the Sinnoh League, even if he ultimately ended up being knocked out far sooner than he was in XY. Both loses were irritating, but DP's was far less so, for the fact that it was Legendaries he was up against, and there was absolutely no setup for him to actually win that battle like there was with Alain. Ash was obviously supposed to win the battle against Alain, and the setup for him to do so was perfect, but he lost for literally no other reason than that the writers can't let him win for continuation purposes.
...and yes, I know Ash went up against Diantha in XY and held his own too, but it was the most ridiculous match ever. Ash-Greninja treated Mega Gardevoir like a rag doll, and in context it made absolutely no sense for it to be that overpowered. His matches with the Elite Four in DP were most instructional and served as great character development for him and his Pokemon, rather than a showcase for how OP Ash-Greninja is and how underwhelming the Champion of the region is. That Ash-Greninja then lost to a Mega Charizard X it should have beaten only made that battle even more ridiculous in hindsight, too.
DP Ash had far greater character development than XY Ash did, in my opinion - him and his Pokemon both. Ash-Greninja arguably had greater synergy with Ash, but it became a very cheap way for him to win 90% of his battles after a point, and there was very little focus on the rest of his team as a result. Every one of Ash's DP Pokemon had its own character arc and grew with him as a trainer. Alright, so Counter Shield was cheap. But he took it from Dawn, and incorporated a lot of her style - and even one of her Pokemon - into his strategies, which showed far greater flexibility of thinking, and made him a more interesting character...for like, the first time EVER. DP Ash showed a greater awareness of his surroundings and greater synergy with his travelling companions, whereas XY Ash was a more "back to basics" kind of trainer and only looks as good as he did because BW Ash was so absolutely atrocious.
DP Ash also gets points for actually wanting to improve himself, too. His entering the Wallace Cup with Buizel is the most interesting thing he's ever done. He also remembered that he has other Pokemon besides the ones he caught in that region and gave a damn good go of it in the Sinnoh League.
Going up against members of the Elite Four - and holding his own for a time, too - and taking out TWO Legendaries in the Sinnoh League, even if he ultimately ended up being knocked out far sooner than he was in XY. Both loses were irritating, but DP's was far less so, for the fact that it was Legendaries he was up against, and there was absolutely no setup for him to actually win that battle like there was with Alain. Ash was obviously supposed to win the battle against Alain, and the setup for him to do so was perfect, but he lost for literally no other reason than that the writers can't let him win for continuation purposes.
...and yes, I know Ash went up against Diantha in XY and held his own too, but it was the most ridiculous match ever. Ash-Greninja treated Mega Gardevoir like a rag doll, and in context it made absolutely no sense for it to be that overpowered. His matches with the Elite Four in DP were most instructional and served as great character development for him and his Pokemon, rather than a showcase for how OP Ash-Greninja is and how underwhelming the Champion of the region is. That Ash-Greninja then lost to a Mega Charizard X it should have beaten only made that battle even more ridiculous in hindsight, too.
DP Ash had far greater character development than XY Ash did, in my opinion - him and his Pokemon both. Ash-Greninja arguably had greater synergy with Ash, but it became a very cheap way for him to win 90% of his battles after a point, and there was very little focus on the rest of his team as a result. Every one of Ash's DP Pokemon had its own character arc and grew with him as a trainer. Alright, so Counter Shield was cheap. But he took it from Dawn, and incorporated a lot of her style - and even one of her Pokemon - into his strategies, which showed far greater flexibility of thinking, and made him a more interesting character...for like, the first time EVER. DP Ash showed a greater awareness of his surroundings and greater synergy with his travelling companions, whereas XY Ash was a more "back to basics" kind of trainer and only looks as good as he did because BW Ash was so absolutely atrocious.
DP Ash also gets points for actually wanting to improve himself, too. His entering the Wallace Cup with Buizel is the most interesting thing he's ever done. He also remembered that he has other Pokemon besides the ones he caught in that region and gave a damn good go of it in the Sinnoh League.
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CodeHelmet
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You have a point with regards to the bar being set so low thanks to how bad BW happened to be but I think you're giving DP Ash a bit too much credit. If DP Ash was so good, then why was it that Torterra couldn't win a damn fight if its life depended on it? At least you can make the argument that each of Ash's Pokemon in XY had won a fight in some manner(Team Rocket excluded) but DP Torterra... did he even win a battle after it evolved from Grotle, much less Turtwig?
In ranking the series, I gave a slight edge to XY Ash but only because he did better in the Kalos League Tournament and the fact his battles against the Gym Leaders were just better(and the fact his 6 Pokemon did better overall in my opinion).
CidHazard
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Trainer/Pokemon strength really aren't as apparent in the anime than in the games since there's no clear metric to judge their abilities too. Since, they only (In most cases) just fights Ash.
And saying that XY Ash has no flexibility and only winning by MEGA-GRENINJA WINS LOL is down right wrong. Up to the point where he get's Mega-greninja he's fought like he always did. Being by being "Unpredictable"... with Sawyer even taking notes from his own battle style and strategy.
First gym battle: used Iron tail to negate the terrain advantage that Viola's pokemon have.
Second Gym: Using superior mobility against grants the rock tomb and freaking draco meteor.
etc
Thing is - Ash has always been flexible in battles... that's kinda he's gimmick. Find the week spot or opening in the opponents move and exploit it (His battle style is exactly why we get some of the most insane/ridiculous KO's in the Anime) So you can't really use it as an advantage in a Ash vs Ash battle, since they're all flexible and share the same style.
And saying that XY Ash has no flexibility and only winning by MEGA-GRENINJA WINS LOL is down right wrong. Up to the point where he get's Mega-greninja he's fought like he always did. Being by being "Unpredictable"... with Sawyer even taking notes from his own battle style and strategy.
First gym battle: used Iron tail to negate the terrain advantage that Viola's pokemon have.
Second Gym: Using superior mobility against grants the rock tomb and freaking draco meteor.
etc
Thing is - Ash has always been flexible in battles... that's kinda he's gimmick. Find the week spot or opening in the opponents move and exploit it (His battle style is exactly why we get some of the most insane/ridiculous KO's in the Anime) So you can't really use it as an advantage in a Ash vs Ash battle, since they're all flexible and share the same style.
weedle_mchairybug
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Hard to say, to be honest. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd have to say XY Ash. DP Ash definitely had a lot of skill, but he ultimately came across as pathetic overall thanks largely to the level reset, especially against the gym leaders via his Pikachu. I could buy Pikachu beating them, but not losing to them, ESPECIALLY after his win against a Regice. And don't get me started on his Pikachu losing against Paul's Ursaring. If they really needed to have him lose, they should have had Pikachu lose to Torterra. By contrast, Ash, even though he tended to lose against the Gym Leaders in XY, at least didn't look downright pathetic as a result, and actually made both Ash AND the Gym Leaders look good, something we haven't seen since the OS.
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DP Ash is good but XY Ash better at thinking on his feet in battles than DP Ash.
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Palamon
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DP Ash. Battled Elite Four Members, had a team with a lot of different variety in types, (Having three flying types on the same team is bad.) and battled a legendary Pokemon, even managing to defeat it. The only reason XY Ash made it as far as he did in the Pokemon league was Ash-Greninja anyway. Therefore, DP ash is the better trainer.
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And the only reason DP Ash made it as far in his league was because of his old pokemon. XY Ash didn't need them to make it to the finals. And XY Ash battling the champ of kalos is a better feat than DP Ash getting rekt by E4.
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XY Ash wins because his Kalos team was fully evolve and he did made it to the runner up position in the Pokemon League and he did it without bringing back old Pokemon. DP Ash was a good trainer but only half of his Sinnoh team was fully evolve, also he only brought back a few old Pokemon not an whole lot.
pkmin3033
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If Pikachu has proven anything, it's that being evolved means absolutely nothing in the anime...and that's just Pikachu.A lot of Ash's best Pokemon have stopped at their second stage of evolution or never evolved at all, and in some cases - here I'm going to use Torterra as an example, as it was so kindly pointed out that Turtwig got worse as it evolved - evolution has made them worse off. Ash delights in using previous-stage Pokemon to beat their evolved forms, and it usually works in his favour. His Pokemon evolving as part of their character arcs is no reflection on him as a trainer, but of their own personal growth.
DP Ash calling upon his past Pokemon, all of his experiences and resources, makes him an infinitely superior trainer to XY Ash, who has a painful number of same-type Pokemon in his party and basically defaults to "use Ash-Greninja to win" after a set point...and look at how THAT worked out for him. All the setup he could have needed and more to beat Alain's Mega Charizard X, and he blows it. What chance do you think Ash-Greninja would have against Ash's Charizard, which is easily his most overpowered and outright broken Pokemon excluding his Pikachu? You can bet that would be a matchup. Then there's Sceptile, who can take down Legendaries. Swellow, which laughs at type matchups. Snorlax, a damage sponge. XY Ash could use any of these too, but would he? Nope.
DP Ash calling upon his past Pokemon, all of his experiences and resources, makes him an infinitely superior trainer to XY Ash, who has a painful number of same-type Pokemon in his party and basically defaults to "use Ash-Greninja to win" after a set point...and look at how THAT worked out for him. All the setup he could have needed and more to beat Alain's Mega Charizard X, and he blows it. What chance do you think Ash-Greninja would have against Ash's Charizard, which is easily his most overpowered and outright broken Pokemon excluding his Pikachu? You can bet that would be a matchup. Then there's Sceptile, who can take down Legendaries. Swellow, which laughs at type matchups. Snorlax, a damage sponge. XY Ash could use any of these too, but would he? Nope.
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If DP Ash needed old pokemon to get that far in the league, then his region team was kinda weak like his Johto team. And XY Ash can use his old team, but he didn't need to.
pkmin3033
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That's one way of looking at it, I suppose. But then, DP Ash had the flexibility to use his old Pokemon to vary his team, and XY Ash didn't, and he definitely needed it more considering he had THREE flying types on his team, and TWO Dragon types. Hell, all DP Ash would need to do to wipe out half of XY Ash's team would be to use Glalie if type-matchups applied...which they usually don't, but even so, sometimes Ash does use type advantage against a serious opponent.
And you can bet DP Ash would have studied XY Ash's previous battles and would have entered the match with a team designed specifically to counter his. Which would almost certainly have Glalie for type advantage, and Charizard to take down Greninja. It doesn't matter where the Pokemon come from or what the strength of his regional team is when he has all these resources he can draw upon. Choosing not to puts him in a weaker position in my opinion.
Comparing their finishing positions in the league gives a false impression of their strength, and if anything it works AGAINST XY Ash, because there was no reason for him to lose to Alain. Looking at Ash's matchups in both leagues, in XY he was up against rivals that he was clearly going to beat, because he ALWAYS beats his long-term rivals when he goes up against them in league competitions - he beat Gary, and he beat Paul, two trainers he had previously lost against earlier.
Tobias was another one of those no-character-development trainers who came out of nowhere - like Harrisson and Tyson - and he had TWO Legendaries. That's a level of power Ash has never gone up against before in a league competition. All it took to beat XY Ash was a Mega Charizard X he should have been able to beat this time. It took a Darkrai AND a Latios to beat DP Ash, and he took down BOTH of them...and if he'd have started with Sceptile against Darkrai, the battle might have gone another way entirely. If XY Ash had gone up against a trainer like Tobias, he would have lost. But he went up against Alain, a rival-type character that he should have beaten. He didn't. He had type-advantage, Ash-Greninja was his trump card - the thing tossed Diantha's Gardevoir around like a ball! - and this was a character he should have beaten. What does it say about him as a trainer that he didn't? That lack of flexibility, and that arrogance, cost him the final match. DP Ash would have gone in with a balanced team designed to counter Alain and, if his Pikachu didn't get that Charizard, then his own Charizard would have.
It depends, really, on what you think makes a good trainer and what doesn't. XY Ash, to me, showed far less intelligence, ingenuity, and flexibility than DP Ash, who rotated his team to keep his opponents guessing...and this was without Charizard, too. With it, he'd wipe the floor with XY Ash, who wouldn't even think to use his past Pokemon. A good trainer uses everything they have at their disposal.
Ash's arrogance in thinking his regional team is good enough repeatedly costs him competitions, and the only reason he lost against Tobias was because he was using Legendaries. What's XY Ash's excuse for losing against Alain?
...and on a minor note, Volt Tackle >>>>>>>>>> Electro Ball.
Frozocrone
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On paper the Kalos team is strong but in practice it's weak, since Greninja and Pikachu carried that team. They're the only two mons that got clean KOs in the league. Every other Pokemon either drew, lost, or had to face a damaged Pokemon to get a win.
It's also easy to get far in the league when the Kalos league (A) had less participants (B) skips lots of battles (C) had Alain as the only competent trainer in it, lest us forget Ash was taken to the brink of defeat by Sawyer, who for all intent and purposes was a noob. Paul at least had 4 regions under his belt.
I also view Ash as the defacto second best in the Sinnoh league, since the runner-up couldn't knock out Tobias' Darkrai, a feat only Ash achieved.
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Pikachu is not a normal Pikachu though is he? Surprised they never addressed it but there's something special about him. As for Greninja and Pikachu carrying the Kalos team.... Talonflame was a beast, Goodra as well and Hawlucha was also super powerful. Nearly all of them had unreal stamina and their damage threshold was not normal. With more training Noivern would have been even better also.
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Because Alain has a super strong MC-X. And if DP Ash used only his region team he would have lost a lot sooner. And XY Ash can use his old team but he didn't need to. And i'm talking about DP Ash and XY Ash with there best region teams no old pokemon.
pkmin3033
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So? Tobias had a far stronger Darkrai and Latios, and DP Ash took out BOTH of them, with zero setup. XY Ash had all the setup in past episodes he needed - and more besides - to take out Mega Charizard X and he didn't. He lost a battle he should have won spectacularly.
That's a completely inaccurate represent of DP Ash, though. He didn't use his region team exclusively; he used a mash-up of previous teams for strategy's sake, not because his regional team was weaker. If DP Ash had used his regional team against Alain I doubt he would have lost sooner, because his DP team had far better type syngery and, as I said, evolution counts for nothing. Hard to call.
The topic is about which is a better trainer, not which had a better regional team. That's only a fragment of it...and honestly, even comparing his teams I'd still say DP Ash was better, because he doesn't use three of the same type.