(image may or may not have to do with the discussion)​

Many competitive games have the benefit (or detriment, depending on how you look at it) of getting balance patches. League of Legends is a game like such, with regular patches every 2 weeks. With each patch, the game changes, and so does the meta.

There are also few games that do not get patched. For example, Super Smash Bros. Melee does not get changed at all, and it's up to the players of the game to discover new things as the game ages.

Pokémon is somewhere in between these two "extremes", for lack of a better word. We do kind of get new patches in the forms of newer games, but it also takes one or two years for the next "patch" to come out (a relatively long time compared to other games that get patched). Like frequently patched games, we get fresh stuff when the patch comes out. Like games that do not get patched, it's up to the players to discover and evolve the meta throughout the lifetime of the patch.

Of course, I'm kind of lying when I say that Pokémon does not get "patched", because we have gotten Diancie, Hoopa, and Volcanion after the initial Generation 6 games were released. But that's not the focus of this discussion, because those Pokémon being introduced did not affect the mechanics of the game. No existing Pokémon got changed, no existing moves got changed, and no existing abilities got changed as a result of the releases of Diancie, Hoopa, or Volcanion.

(image may or may not have to do with the discussion)​

What I want to discuss is this: Which moves/abilities/items/mechanics do you think should be changed in the next "patch" of Pokémon?
Keep in mind that this should be looked at from a competitive point of view. And by competitive I mean Smogon OU.

• For example, weather was permanent prior to Gen 6, but got changed to be 5 (or 8) turns from X/Y onward.
• Another example would be the fact that Electric types being immune to paralysis in Gen 6.
• An example for moves is Knock Off. It's power rose drastically from Gen 5 to Gen 6 (20 to 65), and gained even more power if you knocked an opponent's item off.
• As for abilities, a good example would be Storm Drain. Before Generation 5, Storm Drain did not give immunity to Water-Type attacks. But in Gen 5, not only were Pokémon with this ability immune to Water-Type attacks, they also got a special attack raise whenever they were hit by one of these attacks.
• The Safety Goggles were introduced in Gen 6, and provide defensive mechanics basically identical to the ability Overcoat.

I will compile the list of suggestions here:

NOTE: Do NOT suggest new moves or abilities here. Fire-Type Quick Attack is cool, but not for this thread. For items, try to base it off of an existing item or something like that (like "Bulletproof Vest" or something). Err...mechanics...just try to be logical. Also, try not to touch Pokémon (base stats or learnsets, and definitely not abilities). I know learnsets get updated every game, and I know that Unfezant got a +10 Attack increase from Gen 5 to Gen 6, but it will be like those other threads that are like "change one stat of a Pokémon" or something like that.

Remember to be reasonable with your replies and discuss why you think it's a good change. You can assume that these changes will take place now (ORAS) or in the next game (Sun/Moon). It's easier to judge whether the changes will be effective or not if we're assuming ORAS, but we definitely won't get any changes until Sun/Moon. You can also assume that you're the only one making the changes to the game (basically, disregard anyone else's posts if you want).


For me (and probably a million other people), I believe that Scald and Knock Off are way too strong. They're both very easy options to go for and it's really hard to switch into either. I would hope to see Scald getting its burn chance lowered to 10% (or base power lowered to 60 or something), and Knock Off's power being lowered to 45 or something like that.

Certain moves like Rock Slide should have perfect accuracy and maybe a small boost in power. It's always good to have the option for power or accuracy, but sometimes power is almost always the better option. There should be a special Fighting move with perfect accuracy as an alternative to Focus Blast. It wouldn't hurt to give perfect accuracy to Draco Meteor, Leaf Storm, etc. as well.

The Steel-type should resist Dark and Ghost like it did previously. Either that or hand over the resistances to other types. Aegislash and Hoopa-U were both pretty close to being OU material, but their Ghost and Dark coverage were simply too good, respectively. Greninja could potentially drop as well if more Pokemon resisted its coverage, but it's a unique case due to Protean. Knock Off wouldn't need a nerf either, but I really don't think it's overpowered to begin with. I just believe that it's not a coincidence that the three least overpowered Uber Pokemon (sans Landorus-I?) are all Dark- or Ghost-types. It's like the low-key version of the Gen 4/5 Dragon-type. Regardless, they're all manageable now. Bisharp, Gengar, Tyranitar, and Weavile are far from overpowered.

As for Scald, I don't consider it to be a big problem. Every team should have a Scald absorber, similar to how every team should have Stealth Rock and other methods of dealing with status. Burns suck, but if you expect Scald to burn every time like Will-O-Wisp, it has less influence on you. To an extent I feel that reducing the burn chance would make things worse, as the burns would be less often and randomly manage to clutch battles as opposed to the currently more consistent burn chance. I'm not sure if that makes sense. More viable Natural Cure, Water immune and/or cleric Pokemon would be nice though.

In the end I'm pretty satisfied with how Gen 6 OU ended up. It could be better, but there are plenty of methods to deal with everything. It's a big improvement on Gen 5 OU.

I'd like a few of the near 100% accuracy moves to get bumped up to 100% accuracy. I've had Dragon Tail miss more times than I care for -_-

I would also say "nerf SR/entry hazards", but I suppose the better way to do things would be to have more viable spinners/defoggers. Either let more pokes from previous gens be able to learn Rapid Spin/Defog, or introduce several new ones with those moves. I just don't like how limited your options are for hazard removal when Stealth Rock is the best move in the metagame.

agree 100% with reducing scald's base power to 60, makes it have an actual cost for using over surf :|

i like knock off and think it is mostly annoying b/c it's a dark move and dark and ghost need to be resisted by steel again. i think making its base power constant at 75 or so would be nice as well.

it would be nice if we could also nerf/ban anyone who wants to lower deoxys into ou again. george w bush was all over this: you can't get fooled again!

I was thinking of giving bug type pokemon more play means as to introduce more bug pokemon with higher defensive and special defensive base stats; however it'll be hard for them to introduce them all at once in sun/moon so perhaps an alternative could be buffing existing bug type pokemon's base stats for more stall-like playstyles

where's that extra special defence on crustle, right?

Nerf Knock Off back to its previous 20 or whatever BP. Remove Scald from the game Lessen Scald's burn chance. Please Gamefreak. Please.

I've never been a big fan of moves like Scald and Knock Off--the "zero-risk/high-reward" moves. I doubt either of those will happen, but I do think both of these moves are extremely unhealthy for the meta, and definitely wouldn't mind seeing them tweaked in some way.

Volpe Artica said:

Buff. Hail. Rain and Sun had their time in Gen 5 so let's give Hail a chance in Gen 7! :[[[[

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Hail should boost Defense for Ice- and Water-types. 8)

- no more megas
- give Focus Blast more accuracy (may as well do that in exchange for removing that random 10% chance of a SpD drop)
- or alternatively a more accurate but somewhat weaker version of Focus Blast

I've played in the VGC circuit for 3 years now (2014-16) and though I am excited for the VGC 2017 format, I do believe that a few changes need to be made.

1.Dark Void (DV)
This move is infamous in doubles where it can put both your pokemon to sleep with a scary 80 base accuracy, second best for any sleep move losing to Spore's 100. This would not be a problem if only Darkrai got it, as it is banned in all VGC formats. The problem lies in a pokemon called Smeargle. Since it can learn almost any move, DV is almost always used on smeargle in doubles. Dark Void is way too accurate to be able to possibly instantly winning you the game.

Next, we have Smeargle itself as although it's base stats are terrible, it can win a game in many ways. Dark Void by hitting both foes is one way, getting god Moody boosts such as evasiveness to dodge every attack or accuracy and always land DV. Smeargle's partners don't help this matter either. Although Smeargle was rare in 2014-15, it rose to power in 2016 when up to 2 cover legends (ex: Xerneas, the Primals, Mega Ray, etc) could be used on your team. Smeargle was no longer forced to run M-Kangaskhan (who is overpowered in it's own right) as the only good partner. If I kept going, you would be here all day, so I will list my proposed changes below.

What needs Fixing:
1.Dark Void: accuracy 80 -> 50-60 or make it so only Darkrai can use it (like Hoopa Unbound's Hyperspace Fury)
2.Moody: make the stat drop to -2 per turn or make it activate every other turn
3.Parental Bond: Second hit does 0.5X -> 0.33X damage
4.Power Herb: Make it so it won't work with 2-turn status move(s) like Geomancy
5.Primal Weather's: put it on a 5 turn timer just like normal weathers.

Volpe Artica said:

And SpDef too!!! I want Walrein to be OU damnit!

Also people that are talking about weaker Focus Blast.......why not just make Aura Sphere more accessible rather than a new move? I'm intrigued as to why that hasn't been brought up.

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That is because Aura sphere is really lacking in the damage department at 90 base while Focus Miss has base 120. In other words, one picks up OHKOs while the other does not. For example:

Palkia @ Life Orb
252 HP/ 252 SpAtk/ 4 Spe
Modest Nature
-Focus Blast
-Aura Sphere

Focus Blast Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ferrothorn: 351-413 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 398-468 (103.1 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dialga: 416-491 (102.9 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Aura Sphere Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ferrothorn: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 265-312 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dialga: 278-328 (68.8 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Even though Palkia can use both Aura Sphere and Focus Blast, and having a base 150 Sp.Atk. backing it up, Palkia still fails to kill some key targets in one go. Pretty much, do you want a 70% chance to kill with Focus Miss, or a 6.25% to kill with an Aura Sphere critical hit?^^

Aura Sphere is 80 base power now, so it's even worse. However, I think that people are just looking for an alternative to Focus Blast, just as Flamethrower is to Fire Blast, or how Surf is an alternative to Hydro Pump. 2HKOs are fine, because you nail the Pokémon on the switch-in. I think Aura Sphere is fine as another option, because your effective power is 80 * 100% = 80, and Focus Blast is 120 * 70% = 84.

I do agree that Hail needs a buff other than "Blizzard doesn't miss lol". It's just that only one type uses Hail well, and that type also happens to be the worst defensive typing. Would it be broken if it's 1/8 max health per turn?

Agree with everyone who suggested that 90%+ accurate moves should just be 100%. And also reverting the Steel resistance thingy.

If Defog removed Leech Seed and/or didn't lower evasion, would it be stronger?

Well first, if you made steel types resist ghost and dark again, Aegislash would suddenly be twice as good as many of his counters in singles wouldn't anymore. The reason GameFreak removed the ghost and dark weakness was to buff dark types and nerf steel types as they were becoming extremely good in gen 5 (Ferrothorn anyone?).

I honestly want certain moves with 90%+ accuracy to miss once in a while to balance the game (Ex: Toxic, Draco, Rock Slide, Air Slash, etc)

Honestly, defog is good enough as is but removing Leech Seed would be nice since it is hard to get on pokemon these days and only a select few are good with it.