Remember Originality?

I remember when I first joined PokéCommunity. I was an eager RM2K user, desperate to show off the work I'd spent the best part of a couple of months coding to showcase everything I'd learned about game making for Pokémon Hidden Depths.

Then as I ventured round to other threads, I got to see other peoples' games. Games most people now wouldn't have even heard of. Rm2k3kid's Pokémon Liquid, Krazy_Meerkat's Pokémon Rusty, Avatar's Pokémon Rising Sun, DarkMage31's Pokémon Lunar, PKMN Sage's Pokémon Orre, and so on.

Each game looked like a lot of fun and, more importantly, each game looked different. They were all created solely by each person with the knowledge and skills they'd gained from a long period of constantly learning and practicing and improving on their work. And all of that time and effort shone through in the screenshots and demos that they posted. And it was actually a privilege to see these games get updated and to see the new elements they had incorporated into their games.

It's what kept me constantly motivated in my own game. Trying to keep up with these guys meant constantly trying to hone my own talents and learn more and more about the ins-and-outs of making a Pokémon game and making it unique.

Then RMXP was released. Games got bigger and better looking and more ambitious. Great. Even more ways to make your own game stand out from the crowd and to make your own game all the more awesome.

Then, some point later, a Pokémon Starter Kit was released, which in turn evolved into Poccil's Pokémon Essentials. Which basically has every single part of a Pokémon game pre coded for you. CBS, CMS, Bag System etc. There's probably even more to it than that, I've just not looked too deeply into it.

And now almost every single "game developer" is using this Pokémon Essentials to create a game. I open up a thread, scroll down to the credits and see, "Poccil's Pokémon Essentials." Then I click 'Back' on my browser. What's the point of that? What's the point of trying to develop a game when the main part of the game has already been developed for you? Every single game looks the same now. Everybody is using the starter kit, everybody is using Kyledove's tilesets and everybody has become extremely generic.

I've been coming back to this forum for the past couple of weeks to try and draw some inspiration and motivation for my own project, but it's completely impossible. The only game I've seen that stands out from the crowd (apart from the MMOs) is Neo Dragon's Pokémon Protectors, and that's because he's created everything by himself, without resorting to using someone else's work. Major kudos to him

Have people just become lazy? People that use a starter kit are no different from ROM hackers to me. When I look at a game, I wanna see a CUSTOM battle system, a CUSTOM menu system and some original features and systems. I don't wanna just see similar maps using the same tileset. It seems to me now that the Game Development area has just become a contest to see who can create the best Fakémon, most of which are also made by other people too.

So I ask, what happened to originality? And what happened to the grit and determination of building a game using only your own skills?

As you know Dawson, I've been around about the same time as you ( I said around, I'm pretty sure you joined earlier though lol). I miss everyone from the "old days" so much. I felt these were the guys who inspired me big time. I remember you were the one always giving me advice on Pokemon Silk 1- remember giving me advice on making paths lol- or giving me advice on improving my old a$$ menu I did with the default colors in paint. I remember most of those days in detail lol.

I agree with you and the point you are trying to make 100%. And thanks for the plug and compliment (means a lot). But fact is, it's really an old way of thinking. We are like the old granddads everyone tries to ignore. Even when we offer the best advice (I say best, but I mean more mature advice) and people just don't listen.

No matter how many times we say "If I want to play a standard pokemon game, I will play the real pokemon games" people still thinking adding in all regions is a feature.

There's nothing wrong with using a starter kit, you're, in essence, already using a very global starting kit by using RMXP or RM2k. The thing is that most people don't actually bother to expand upon that.

Grab the starter kit, throw down some maps, add in the same old story about a kid fighting an evil organization while becoming a Pokémon master and call it a game. Total uninspired 'game making'. You might as well just hack roms if you're not going to try and refresh the idea.

Seriously, you are right with every point you bring up. I joined about a year after you did, but still, there were no starterkits or anything, and people came up with solutions themselves. There was the RM2K/3 Battle System Project, but that was about it. Pokémon Liquid was one of the games I remember most (no offense or anything), and it was completely original. I don't even bother downloading demos anymore. They all look so similar.

On another note, what happened to non-Pokémon games? All the games seem to be all about Pokémon (though it is a bit understandable, considering the board is about Pokémon). If I could find my Tales of Virtue demo, I would continue that and post it here, but unfortunately, I can't.

I was going to say something about ROM hacking, but considering that section is heading in the same direction, I won't.

The thing is, had the RM2k/3 battle system project ever been finished we would've had the exact same situation we have now (albeit earlier and for another RPG Maker program) so it really doesn't make much of a difference.

While most of the games being showcased here now are nothing more than generic you really have to look beyond the framework they are all based on. Mods of games like Half-Life use the exact same framework, but it's not what they are based on that matter there. It's what they're able to accomplish with it.

The fact that you haven't seen any non-Pokemon games is probably attributed to the fact that they seem to get little (if any at all) acknowledgement.

You know, this thread really got me thinking.I agree with almost everything you guys have said, and some of the things are true even in my game. I guess that doesn't make me any better than the kinds of people you criticize.

-I have heard of those legendary pioneer games, but what happened to them? Did those people just give up?
-Yes, the vast majority of updates are pretty bland.
-I remember when the first demo of (~~~~~~~~~) came out. I was all ecstatic and even though the layout, gameplay, graphics, and all were abysmal, I still loved it because it was new and original. It showed the hard work of a lot of people, and I was all excited about the game and all its parts. And since then, I have been more and more disappointed. Many other games have taken similar downfalls.
-The Kyledove D/P tiles aren't even that good. The colors are too dull and the buildings look way out of proportion. They can be put to good use, but only after heavy edits that no one seems to be willing to do.
-I don't think it's that people are lazy. I think it's more that people are immature and lack creativity.

"Grab the starter kit, throw down some maps, add in the same old story about a kid fighting an evil organization while becoming a Pokémon master and call it a game. Total uninspired 'game making'. You might as well just hack roms if you're not going to try and refresh the idea."
That's how most of the games are, unfortunately. Even mine.


All things said and done, your post was very thought-provoking. I can't stop thinking about it since I first read this. I feel like a total loser right now, but I and many others deserve to.

Sounds like a typical case of Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap (and most of the remaining 10% is crap, too). Including fangames.

If there's a drop in quality, it's probably because the would-be game developers who didn't have the talent to make a game of their own (and who thought that stuffing all the regions in one game would automatically make it amazing) weren't able to use the programs it takes to make a game. If a starter kit makes it easier for them, then they now have an outlet for their bad ideas that's simple enough for them to use with little effort.

It's like fanfiction vs. published work. Fanfiction is considered a horrible pile of slag because so much of it is simply terrible. But just about as many novels are equally terrible. The difference is that publishing companies will throw the bad novels in the reject pile (well, most of the time...) but there's no similar quality control on the Internet.

If Pokémon Essentials makes it so much easier to create a game, then that's basically a removal of quality control. It's no surprise if a bunch of dull, unoriginal games are showing up, if now you don't need talent to make a game. Game developers aren't getting any lazier; lazy game developers are finally able to make games, when they weren't able to before.

On a slightly different note, I'd definitely expected some "game developing pwns ROM hacking" sentiment in the Game Development section, but I'm surprised at some of the... disdain? Hostility? "Have people just become lazy? People that use a starter kit are no different from ROM hackers to me." Does that mean ROM hackers are inherently lazy? "You might as well just hack roms if you're not going to try and refresh the idea." Does that mean it's impossible for ROM hacks to have fresh ideas? I agree that ROM hacking suffers--and has probably suffered for a long time--from the same problem that game development now seems to suffer: the easier it is to use the tools, the more untalented/lazy people will use them. And even with Pokémon Essentials for game developers, ROM hackers still have it easier, with already-built games ready to modify and tools like AdvanceMap that almost reach WYSIWYG simplicity. So it's true that the quality control barriers put in place for ROM hacking are even lower than the barriers for game development, and a greater percentage of Sturgeon's 90% can ooze onto the Internet.

But how does that make ROM hackers inherently lazy? Or incapable of fresh ideas? I think it depends on what you do with them. I hack ROMs instead of developing games because I don't want a new game structure; I want to make a game that feels like the original Pokémon games, that has the same battle system, the same Start menu, the same tiles. I don't want to do anything that can't be done in the original games. So, why would I start from scratch and design my own game, when I could have the exact amount of creative control I want over my game by hacking a ROM, and in addition save a lot of time on building the basics of the game that could be better spent developing the plot, scripting events, and trying to make the story as innovative and entertaining as it can be?

Sure, there are many more bad attempts at games in the ROM hacking section than there are in the game development section, just because it's easier for the lazy guys to start retiling maps and calling it a Brilliant New Region. But I disagree with the suggestion that it's impossible to make a great game, with an original plot and innovative ideas, just because someone is using a ROM--or, just because someone is using Pokémon Essentials, or any other starter kit.

It's just easier for the unoriginal, uncreative games to get made as well. :P

Before Pokémon Essentials, there were a number of projects that never got finished or released. After Pokémon Essentials, there are still a number of projects never finished or released, however with Pokémon Essentials there is a possibility that this can happen. Before, people were trying, and failing, to make Pokémon games, and now the tools are there.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, not everyone in the world is super-talented with coding/scripting etc. It's really complicated, and quite honestly, I'm not interested in learning it. Pokémon Essentials really gives a person like me, and lots of others, with ideas and creativity the platform to make a Pokémon game. And yes, I'm also aware that there are a large number of sub-par projects, using kyledove's tiles as a way to distract from the fact that they're not putting any work into their games.

I look at Pokémon Essentials as a really great vehicle for Pokémon game development, and while it has led to a surplus of forgettable projects, it can give way to really great ones, if people just put in the hard work.

Neo Dragon said:

I agree with you and the point you are trying to make 100%. And thanks for the plug and compliment (means a lot). But fact is, it's really an old way of thinking. We are like the old granddads everyone tries to ignore. Even when we offer the best advice (I say best, but I mean more mature advice) and people just don't listen.

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high-five for an archaic way of thinking! I remember the good old days with my brother, Ice Dragon, who was eventually arrested by the Chinese government and probably executed, and I coming up with innovations in Fire Emblem fangames. Those were much better times than what we have nowadays.

But once the knowledge on how to do something becomes common, it's inevitable that people are going to take advantage of it. This is probably the main thing I learned not only from this thread, but my own, much smaller editorial at the beginning of GDW.

blueguy said:

Before Pokémon Essentials, there were a number of projects that never got finished or released. After Pokémon Essentials, there are still a number of projects never finished or released, however with Pokémon Essentials there is a possibility that this can happen. Before, people were trying, and failing, to make Pokémon games, and now the tools are there.

Click to expand...

People won't finish anything for a while. A really long while, because most people are too obsessed with revamping everything that they can't be satisfied with what they have.

The question Dawson is asking aint about how many games get finished, but where is the originality in the fan games these days.
Like, the first thing people say when they feel they aint being original is "Ohh it won't be the default get 8 gym badges and take out an evil team"- but that isn't a bad thing. What is important is the gameplay experience you are offering. Gamefreak have been using that storyline for 4 generations, but it how the world is presented and how the story unfolds that keeps the pokemon fans coming back. The hardcore player is all about getting all the pokemon and working on the stats of a pokemon, but the casual player just plays through the story events.

What I am looking for in a fan game personally is not a fancy menu, or a cool storyline that is different, it is just the feeling of exploring in a compelling world. I- and everyone- has real lifes to get on with. When we do have free time, give us a reason to spend it in your world. Ya know?
That's the whole point of an RPG I guess.

Neo-Dragon said:

The question Dawson is asking aint about how many games get finished, but where is the originality in the fan games these days.
Like, the first thing people say when they feel they aint being original is "Ohh it won't be the default get 8 gym badges and take out an evil team"- but that isn't a bad thing. What is important is the gameplay experience you are offering. Gamefreak have been using that storyline for 4 generations, but it how the world is presented and how the story unfolds that keeps the pokemon fans coming back. The hardcore player is all about getting all the pokemon and working on the stats of a pokemon, but the casual player just plays through the story events.

What I am looking for in a fan game personally is not a fancy menu, or a cool storyline that is different, it is just the feeling of exploring in a compelling world. I- and everyone- has real lifes to get on with. When we do have free time, give us a reason to spend it in your world. Ya know?
That's the whole point of an RPG I guess.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with him on that point then. I hate to see the same project over and over again, with no effort or originality. But it's really unfair to insult every single person who uses Pokémon Essentials. I have been a frequent browser of this forum for years and I don't believe that the projects today are that much worse than the ones that used to be here.

I used to really love looking at all the screenshots from Dawson's game, but nothing playable really ever arose. The same went for all of the other games. Now that a really wonderful system like Essentials has come along, the possibilities are endless.

And I'd like to stress the point again... I commend people like you, Neo-Dragon, or any of the people who used to pioneer this forum, with systems that you work very hard on. I think your project is amazing, and I wish I had the scripting genius to be able to pull it off, but I don't. I really don't. And it's not something I feel I could learn!

I do know that I have too much free time on my hands, and I want to make a game. I do know I have lots of ideas I want to put to use. Why is it a bad thing to use Pokémon Essentials? I'm not a lazy person. I'm just a person that wants to make a game, and Essentials provides me with the platform to do it.

Would this forum be a better place if there was no sure-fire system with which to make a Pokémon RPG? I don't necessarily think so.

Dawson said:

Rm2k3kid's Pokémon Liquid, Krazy_Meerkat's Pokémon Rusty, Avatar's Pokémon Rising Sun, DarkMage31's Pokémon Lunar, PKMN Sage's Pokémon Orre, and so on.

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Where's Boodasack's Call of Latios?

To answer your question, I do remember originality. During the time you were around, I was an ignorant child that went to great lengths to promote not using the RPGMaker series. Now, I'm an ignorant person that also tries to promote originality.

blueguy said:

I used to really love looking at all the screenshots from Dawson's game, but nothing playable really ever arose.

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Thanks for the kind words I didn't quote, but your wrong with that statement. Dawson did have a release on his game. I loved it. It was Pokemon Hidden Depths which had a REALLY unique feature that let you cut down trees and purify lakes with sludge water (Yup, I even remember that Dawson lol).

Pokemon Liquid by Rm2k3kid got a release.

3 of my old games got demos (Silk1, Digital Network and Silk2).

The community was working together on a battle system for Rm2k(3) (it worked on both as far as I remember)- which - again- had a release.

There was A LOT more games and demos released back then.

Well i dont like it that heaps of people
are using Pokemon Essentials
mainly because all games are like the same
I mean who would like to play a game with
the same battle system as others?
I prefer RM2K3 because it will give me
more flexibility and i've been using it for a while now.
So I agree with you why does everyone use the starter it anyway?
because it is easy i think.
You dont have to agree with me though. :) :(

RM2k3 actually limits flexibility...
Plus why
do you type
like this?
I don't think
there's one reason for
your sentences to be spread
out over more than one
line!

Neo-Dragon said:

Thanks for the kind words I didn't quote, but your wrong with that statement. Dawson did have a release on his game. I loved it. It was Pokemon Hidden Depths which had a REALLY unique feature that let you cut down trees and purify lakes with sludge water (Yup, I even remember that Dawson lol).

Pokemon Liquid by Rm2k3kid got a release.

3 of my old games got demos (Silk1, Digital Network and Silk2).

The community was working together on a battle system for Rm2k(3) (it worked on both as far as I remember)- which - again- had a release.

There was A LOT more games and demos released back then.

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Aww, I didn't know his game had a release. T_T I always wanted to play it.

And I know you've released stuff too! Your projects have always been really interesting.

I think it would be great to create a new sense of community around here. I'd like it if that could happen.

lol
Its caus thats how im used to typing
and RM2K3 lets you have more flexibiltiy
caus ive been working on a secret project in
it and look at Protectors!
Its pretty awesome
and with RM2K3 i know it
limits your files to 256 colours but with irfan view
you can make it go up to more!

Neo-Dragon said:

Thanks for the kind words I didn't quote, but your wrong with that statement. Dawson did have a release on his game. I loved it. It was Pokemon Hidden Depths which had a REALLY unique feature that let you cut down trees and purify lakes with sludge water (Yup, I even remember that Dawson lol).

Click to expand...

I remember that game! Yep... those were the golden days of Game Development...

Well i wasnt around then but I have a copy of hidden depths
and its fun i say!
and a unique feature is to choose between 2 versions/storylines.