Remember Originality?

[Hall Of Famer]

First of all, I agree with you that games in game showcase need more originality. It's good to see every game with a different style of storyline, character design, and unique features like minigames. I also agree with the point that the games will look more boring and less creative if they all start to use kyledove's tileset. Kyledove's tiles are good to be used in a few fan games, but not in everyone's game.

However, I have to point out the fact you have made a similar mistake to Neil Postman. As PyroYahtzee put it, the people who use the starterkit and refuse to expand their games are what you should blame, not the starterkit itself. Like Avatar said, the unfinished RM2K3 battle system project would have created the same situation if it was ever finished. The starterkit makes it a lot easier for n00bs to start a possibly improvable and finishable project, while I can tell that most of the fan games in game showcase wouldn't even be as good as they already are without Poccil's pokemon essentials.

Besides, your concept of creativity is a little bit controversial. I personally don't see why games made with RMXP and poccil's starterkit can't ever become creative. The starterkit does make the game less expandable, but we can still create new elements within the pokemon essentials itself, which is also a form of creativity. If you want to talk about the absolute definition of creativity, well, then we are not supposed to make pokemon games at all according to this logic. We're also not supposed to use RMXP, game maker or Sphere at all since they are already modified scripting systems for game developers. Why not try a 3D shooting game instead? I'm sure it's more of a unique game, but it won't ever become as popular and appreciated in this forum. Instead, pokemon games made by Poccil's starterkit can be creative and original as well if people learn how to create scripts and make them compatible with the starterkit.

Another issue is that we can't expect most people to be able to do everything(scripts, storyline, maps, graphics, music and so on) by themselves. More importantly, they don't have the time to do all those stuff even if they can. The fact is that most of us will have to request a huge team to make custom graphics in order to complete a project like Custom battle system, which is not quite possible at this point. Keep in mind that everyone has a life out of internet and they are using their spare time to make fan games. We're not professional game developers, and we won't make fan games anymore if we are since the games will not be free and open to the public. Do we like to see pokecommunity turn into a website where games become commercial and their developers attempt to propagate their own games using ads everywhere? I wonder.

I do agree with you that originality is needed in this forum, but there's more than one way to make a game original. A unique storyline, interesting character design and creative graphic style can make a game original as well.

 

[Kyledove]

What's really depressing for me - from a graphics side of things is like, when I made the Sinnoh tilesets I imagined people using them in all these different and original ways. There is still room for originality within my tiles, but what do we get? Exact same Pallet and Twin leaf towns - yuck! C'mon now, you can do better than that.

Same with my indoors, I made them and I thought woah imagine all the different combinations and interiors people will make! But what happened? Every single hero's house looks the same as the hero's house from DP...Uh seriously, what about adding a wall here, or extra rooms here, or a part of a lab there - There's so much potential but everyone just copies the same room structures as DP!

I do think though that maybe the Sinnoh tilesets weren't the best idea, all it seems to have done is people have become so dependant on them no one is doing their own. People don't make as many custom tiles as before. I suppose it will only reach a point it becomes too overused and its "uncool" so people will be forced to start their own which is good though.

Other than that, it's hard to be original when anything you release people will copy or be "inspired" by you too closely. (Not stealing - just copied very closely.)

 

[Ty 101]

Okay!

I hear a lot of people complain about essentials. If I was poccil I would have left the community by now. A lot of people say that Poccil's starter kit was for the worse. He put lots of work into the starter kit. The least you can do is not get mad at him for doing something that helped many members of the community. I do agree that the starter kit has more people creating games and because more people are making games some are not going to be very good. I use the starter kit myself and I beleive that if you are going to use the starter kit you should involve at least a little bit of scripting into your game. When I say this I am not saying that if you do not script your game will be awful. Many games made with the starter kit have turned out really good. Many people say that the starter kit reduces origianality because it limits the game. I disagree! I have seen many screenshots of completely redone games with excelent scripts. As an example I am putting together a completely possible multiplayer function in my game. Lets not forget thee once unimpressive raptor that has risin to great quality. I am sick of people insulting the starter kit! People who have created the best games of all time were on a team of game developers. I am not useing kyledoves tiles. The reason I am not is to make everything stand out. People can help each other!

 

[twilight guardian]

I would essentially have to agree with everyone on this forum who is in support of the Starter Kit. Yes, I'm using it. Why? Because I have never made a game before in my life and I am starting out. But that doesn't mean that I am going to make my game the same as everyone elses. In fact, the game that I am working on right now is more of a simulation game and yes will require a lot of scripting, something that I know nothing about. In fact, the primary target of my game is not pokemon battles or challenging gyms and trainers but breeding pokemon and breeding them to the best of their potential (I'm putting my more generic or "less original" games on hiatus until I know more about game making).

I know that it could be frustrating. But I don't think that it's appropriate to put people down because of what program they're using. I believe that if you are really upset about something like this, then why not do something about it? Make tutorials that clearly teaches the less knowledgable on how to use scripting and encourage the newbies with the impliments of more creativity; don't just say "this game won't do well" tell them why you don't find it interesting. If all your doing is making a forum and whining and complaining, then you're just making up another useless forum that doesn't solve the problem. For instance, I got into this whole online game-making because I saw that there weren't any good games, thus I decided to get up off my butt (or... on rather?) and do something about it. I've started with 0% knowledge of this program, and yes I have to ask a crapload of questions and I'm probably annoying the hell out of my friend that's helping me, but isn't that worth it to make a good game how you want it to be?

Also, don't judge a game by the name, either. An important note, since many of us seem to be rather shallow.

But that's just my oppinion on the matter. No one is going to do what I personally think is best because they are not me and may not see my way of thinking. Others are more closed-minded than others or are maybe just naive. But if making fan-games is what you really like doing, then I don't think that you really need much more motivation than the support from people who are looking forward to your game. It's especially satisfying if you're mostly doing it by yourself. It may be a lot harder and you might have to ask a mountain of questions (like I have to) then it's all worth it, right? Even if you are having help from a team of people that you scraped together, it's still plenty of motivation considering that you are the head (or not) of the project and other people are waiting on you. Maybe I'm getting off topic though? ^-^;​

 

[Maruno]

I really like the Essentials kit, and not just because I'm relatively new here. It gives anyone a chance to make at least half a game out of their concepts, and that's exactly what encourages creativity. You don't follow? Well, consider this...

A shiny-eyed kid loves the Pokémon games, but wishes there were a game in which the player was able to transform into Arceus. It may not be the best concept in the world, but it's his idea. He discovers Pokémon Essentials and thinks, "great! Now I can make my game exactly how I want it to be!" And so he starts at it. The problem is, he knows nothing about it. Now, the kid can go one of two ways: ask for lots of help so that he can learn more so he can create his game (good) or attempt to hire a dozen people who'll make his game for him (bad). The point, though, is that if he really does want his game to exist, then he'll keep at it. And during that time, he'll find out all kinds of things about RPG Maker and scripting and events and all that. He learns, and he'll probably learn so much that he decides he can make a better game than the one he originally set out to do.

The lesser key point (the greater key point is below) is that a person who works for a long time on their game is dedicated to it, and wants it to succeed and be good. Yes, there'll be those who proudly announce their game and then nothing comes of it because they're too lazy to actually make the thing, but you should be ignoring those "projects". Most likely, those "projects" will be the bad ideas, the "I wanna make a Gold clone with Kyledove's tiles!". Ignore them.

The greater key point, though, is that the Essentials kit makes the entire area of Pokémon game-making a lot less elitist. In the old days, game developers needed to have extensive knowledge of programming, and needed to implement everything themselves. That's impressive, but it does restrict the number of game developers to "those who can also program". I doubt there's a high correlation between creativing and programming skill - people can have great ideas without being able to make a game from scratch, you know. Since games are all about having fun, why should the people who want to spread the fun around be restricted only to those who have extensive programming skills?

Also, consider the existence of RPG Maker, Game Maker, Sphere, etc. in the first place. What are they? They're kits that allow people to much more easily create games. They allow just anyone with an idea to start making a game. And I'm sure everyone agrees that they're good things, and a great boon to the game-making community as a whole. I fail to see how Essentials is any different, simply because it allows for the creation of a Pokémon game as opposed to a generic RPG.

Everyone who's arguing against Essentials in this thread are complaining that every single game is identical, with no script changes or innovative tileset layouts and whatnot. In other places these exact same people will be the ones complaining that no one ever finishes their games. You seem to be missing out on the fact that what you're looking at are betas of games. They're certainly not the final result. How about we start assuming that, once these people have finished their mapping, they'll then go on to scripting (at least in a basic sense which, trust me, can make a lot of difference)? I know I'd like to think so (but then again, I never look at the games so I don't know what's around).

Incidentally, I'm doing the opposite to all the examples you know about. I'm working on my game all by myself in private, getting the menus and the graphics all sorted out (but I'm not using Kyledove's tiles) before I start mapping and making the game itself. I'll only be revealing my game to anyone when there's a significant amount of it made. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's doing this, either. You just don't know about us people. It's like assuming all land everywhere is light brown and gritty just because you're standing in a desert. And we're the rainforests.

 

[Neo-Dragon]

This isn't ment to be a bashing of the Starter Kit thread. Dawson's main point was questioning the originality in fan games, and asking what happened to it. The "what happened" to it part brought up the argument of the Kit, but I think everyone has got sidetracked.
So I will make the question a bit clearer.
What happened to the days of experimenting with new features and gameplay aspects. (Edit: Check out any of the games from 2005/2006 to see what I mean)How do you think all of us older members learned how to code in the first place? Through trial and error of coming up new ideas and seeing if we can make it.
This is a hobbie for everyone here, we do it in our free time, but surely you want to see how much you can "grow" with all this right? Won't that feel much better in the long run to people. You are kidding yourself to think that all these copy cat games will be played for more then 10 minutes- so don't do this hobbie for the people here to say "your awesome"- do it to get that rewarding feeling when you create some art (by art- I don't just mean pictures).

 

[Ninja Tree]

rewarding feeling when you create some art (by art- I don't just mean pictures).

By that he means actually release.

 

[Ty 101]

I would essentially have to agree with everyone on this forum who is in support of the Starter Kit. Yes, I'm using it. Why? Because I have never made a game before in my life and I am starting out. But that doesn't mean that I am going to make my game the same as everyone elses. In fact, the game that I am working on right now is more of a simulation game and yes will require a lot of scripting, something that I know nothing about. In fact, the primary target of my game is not pokemon battles or challenging gyms and trainers but breeding pokemon and breeding them to the best of their potential (I'm putting my more generic or "less original" games on hiatus until I know more about game making).

I know that it could be frustrating. But I don't think that it's appropriate to put people down because of what program they're using. I believe that if you are really upset about something like this, then why not do something about it? Make tutorials that clearly teaches the less knowledgable on how to use scripting and encourage the newbies with the impliments of more creativity; don't just say "this game won't do well" tell them why you don't find it interesting. If all your doing is making a forum and whining and complaining, then you're just making up another useless forum that doesn't solve the problem. For instance, I got into this whole online game-making because I saw that there weren't any good games, thus I decided to get up off my butt (or... on rather?) and do something about it. I've started with 0% knowledge of this program, and yes I have to ask a crapload of questions and I'm probably annoying the hell out of my friend that's helping me, but isn't that worth it to make a good game how you want it to be?

Also, don't judge a game by the name, either. An important note, since many of us seem to be rather shallow.

But that's just my oppinion on the matter. No one is going to do what I personally think is best because they are not me and may not see my way of thinking. Others are more closed-minded than others or are maybe just naive. But if making fan-games is what you really like doing, then I don't think that you really need much more motivation than the support from people who are looking forward to your game. It's especially satisfying if you're mostly doing it by yourself. It may be a lot harder and you might have to ask a mountain of questions (like I have to) then it's all worth it, right? Even if you are having help from a team of people that you scraped together, it's still plenty of motivation considering that you are the head (or not) of the project and other people are waiting on you. Maybe I'm getting off topic though? ^-^;​

I like your way of thinking!

 

[Alistair]

See, it's not the fact that people are using the starter kit. That thinking in this thread is completely taking the topic the wrong way. The point we are trying to make is that people are blindly using the starterkit without making anything original. With older fangames like Pokémon Rusty and Liquid, Krazy_Meerkat and Daegon_Kimeron (I think, I can't remember) had to come up with a completely original battle system. This did not hinder their games, but rather enhanced them and made them more memorable. With Rusty II, you got to play as a Pokémon for the battles and Liquid used a battlesystem that used overworlds rather than the traditional one. See, that is creativity. Now, since a battlesystem is readily available, people are obviously going to use it instead of creating their own. That shouldn't keep people from creating new, original systems and ideas. I mean, Riceeman is using the starterkit, but he is using his own sprites and completely throwing out the main storyline. That is the originality that we should strive for today. We aren't in the days of RM2K3, but we should be in the days of originality. If you don't know how to script in RMXP, eventing is a good alternative when used right. I mean, look at Pokémon Protectors. All events, no scripts. Not being able to script in RGSS is a poor excuse to say that you can't create any new systems. I mean, not to boast or anything, I created a psuedo-database set of events in my chicken quest in my game, Tales of Virtue. All that I really used were variables. That could be an original idea in a fangame that doesn't really require much effort to pull off: a find all the Pokémon quest. Now, enough blathering about my dead game. Besides that, people are also using the same graphics as everyone else. Kyledove's tiles looked original before everybody started to use them. As he said himself, the Sinnoh set was meant to be a base, where people could change them and/or add to the set as they pleased. This is not what people are doing: All they are doing is using the plain set. I am willing to bet that Kyledove released straight outlines, one person would shade them like the DP set and then everybody would use them. The point of all this is that people are using the starterkit as it is without adding anyhting to it. This is completely unoriginal. It's not that we don't like people using the starter kit, it is just we don't like people using it without adding anything to it.

 

[Ninja Tree]

I don't care if the mods delete this as long as some people read this...
STARTER KIT IS NOT BEING BLAMED DIRECTLY BUT RATHER IS A MAJOR CULPRIT OF THE MASS UNORIGINALITY ON THIS BOARD...and quit typing walls of text..

Starter kit isn't much of a bare bones system from what I've seen. Originality has a limit with code/scripting/whateveryallnoobsdo that wasn't originally for the game.

 

[zingzags]

Well its true ever sense piccol made the starter kit everthing changed

 

[Riceeman]

I thoroughly agree with the people in this thread, although I don't think we shold be blaiming the Starter Kit. It is the fangaming community's fault for not coming up with originaly and unique ideas. Yes, you could use the Starter Kit, but you could make so much more, like the chracter is an old man settling an age old grudge and you could raise the rating to pg=13 for violence and death, or it could be a comedic game where you are a Farfetch'd who has lost it's leek stick and you catch and join pokemon to your team by using "sign-up leaflets" instead of Pokeballs.

I mean, Gamefreak sticks with the whole "Boy who is inexperienced somehow manages to overcome a teams world domination scheme while the Chapion of the region stands aside and gives him a bit of assistance" because it works! We will still buy it! They can put all their wierd plots in the spin offs like Pokemon Colleseum. Us Fangamers can make whatever we want! Just try it! If we see a new "It's your tenth birthday...", I'm sure most people will just stop reading the thread.

Please. Be Original.

 

[Neo-Dragon]

At kyledoves and Alistars point:
If people used the tiles as a base and added onto it- do you not think there would be more people "pulling a Waudby" in a sense? Like if kyledove or yourself provided outlines or templates (which I think would be a nice side project for you guys if you get time- something like roof templates lol)- there will be an issue of "who's tile is that" type thing ya know.

A lot of fan games do use recolours and stuff (which I think is a step in the right direction at least) at least already. I never really thought of tiles as an issue though- since everyone was using R/S/E or Fr/Lg back when we were younger.

 

[Luka S.J.]

The starter kit, Alistair's and Kyledove's tiles cannot be blamed for peoples' lack of originality. The starter kit has been made for anyone to use as guidlines. The people using it either lack determination or knowledge of spriting or scripting, which is what makes a game unoriginal. Personally I think that the starter kit is really straight forward to use, and includes some notes which tell users how to customize scripts or just basic events. All people should to is put some effort into their games and acctually read the notes in order to learn how to script for the game, and maybe then the games will be more original. I see no need in people posting huge questions all over the internet on how to do something with the kit. A human person made the kit, so another human person should be able to edit it, especially when it comes with instructions. Wichu's game (Pokemon Amethyst) shows us that originiality is possible with the starter kit. He imported functions into the game that no other has. Yes he is a skilled scripter and stuff, but that shouldn't hold anyone back. He wasn't born with the skill to script, he had to learn it, so I think all of us could at least try to do that, and games might be more original. When I started the "idea" of making a game, I had no clue what I was doing. I used game maker first, but it wasn't going well. Then I changed to RMXP. I didn't know how to script or anything, and I downloaded the starter kit to help me out. After a while (after reading the notes), I know how to change the various scripts in Pokemon Essentials and am implementing few of my own original features for my game. All I'm saying is that anyone can make a successful game if they try.

 

[Ty 101]

See, it's not the fact that people are using the starter kit. That thinking in this thread is completely taking the topic the wrong way. The point we are trying to make is that people are blindly using the starterkit without making anything original. With older fangames like Pokémon Rusty and Liquid, Krazy_Meerkat and Daegon_Kimeron (I think, I can't remember) had to come up with a completely original battle system. This did not hinder their games, but rather enhanced them and made them more memorable. With Rusty II, you got to play as a Pokémon for the battles and Liquid used a battlesystem that used overworlds rather than the traditional one. See, that is creativity. Now, since a battlesystem is readily available, people are obviously going to use it instead of creating their own. That shouldn't keep people from creating new, original systems and ideas. I mean, Riceeman is using the starterkit, but he is using his own sprites and completely throwing out the main storyline. That is the originality that we should strive for today. We aren't in the days of RM2K3, but we should be in the days of originality. If you don't know how to script in RMXP, eventing is a good alternative when used right. I mean, look at Pokémon Protectors. All events, no scripts. Not being able to script in RGSS is a poor excuse to say that you can't create any new systems. I mean, not to boast or anything, I created a psuedo-database set of events in my chicken quest in my game, Tales of Virtue. All that I really used were variables. That could be an original idea in a fangame that doesn't really require much effort to pull off: a find all the Pokémon quest. Now, enough blathering about my dead game. Besides that, people are also using the same graphics as everyone else. Kyledove's tiles looked original before everybody started to use them. As he said himself, the Sinnoh set was meant to be a base, where people could change them and/or add to the set as they pleased. This is not what people are doing: All they are doing is using the plain set. I am willing to bet that Kyledove released straight outlines, one person would shade them like the DP set and then everybody would use them. The point of all this is that people are using the starterkit as it is without adding anyhting to it. This is completely unoriginal. It's not that we don't like people using the starter kit, it is just we don't like people using it without adding anything to it.

How would you make a custom battle system using only events?

 

[Neo-Dragon]

How would you make a custom battle system using only events?

Have a look at my game. It's being coded in Rm2k3- everything is done with events in that.
Edit: The event commands are very similar to RMXPs in case you wanted to know.

 

[Alistair]

At kyledoves and Alistars point:
If people used the tiles as a base and added onto it- do you not think there would be more people "pulling a Waudby" in a sense? Like if kyledove or yourself provided outlines or templates (which I think would be a nice side project for you guys if you get time- something like roof templates lol)- there will be an issue of "who's tile is that" type thing ya know.

A lot of fan games do use recolours and stuff (which I think is a step in the right direction at least) at least already. I never really thought of tiles as an issue though- since everyone was using R/S/E or Fr/Lg back when we were younger.

That could pose a problem, true, but registering work under the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike license could resolve some of the problem of theft.

 

[Anuhrima]

You present a good argument, but people have found ways to customize the system, Like Wichu.

He has learned everything he could to make everything original, he has become one of the best scripters on here.

Being lazy is a human fact for everyone , when a person is given the opportunity to have the stuff given to them, they take it.

But to blame a person who was just trying to help everyone was wrong. Heck there might be someone who will come on here and make and present us with a Pokemon Starter kit for RMVX.

And then the crowd of new game developers will use that, just to leave their mark on the forums.

And I am not saying everyone but, People like attention. And when they get the attention and fame, then poring in more developers, till we got a whole generation of Pokemon games for RMVX.

I personally like Pokemon Essentials, not to be lazy but to make my game without going threw steps and steps to learn all this.

Not to far from now I have to go to high school, the homework will be stacked, and If it wasn't for poccil and his starter kit then I would have to be learning all this scripting on my limited free time.

Not to mention that when I go to high school then I might not like Pokemon anymore, and then my game would become useless, for at a certain age we are expected to forget all this. And if we talk about it then we are called gay and nerds.

So having the starter kit that someone spent their hard time on is pleasing to us

 

[DamianLeonhart]

You present a good argument, but people have found ways to customize the system, Like Wichu.

He has learned everything he could to make everything original, he has become one of the best scripters on here.

Being lazy is a human fact for everyone , when a person is given the opportunity to have the stuff given to them, they take it.

But to blame a person who was just trying to help everyone was wrong. Heck there might be someone who will come on here and make and present us with a Pokemon Starter kit for RMVX.

And then the crowd of new game developers will use that, just to leave their mark on the forums.

And I am not saying everyone but, People like attention. And when they get the attention and fame, then poring in more developers, till we got a whole generation of Pokemon games for RMVX.

I personally like Pokemon Essentials, not to be lazy but to make my game without going threw steps and steps to learn all this.

Not to far from now I have to go to high school, the homework will be stacked, and If it wasn't for poccil and his starter kit then I would have to be learning all this scripting on my limited free time.

Not to mention that when I go to high school then I might not like Pokemon anymore, and then my game would become useless, for at a certain age we are expected to forget all this. And if we talk about it then we are called gay and nerds.

So having the starter kit that someone spent their hard time on is pleasing to us

This has so many issues atm. Not everyone is lazy, and not everyone accepts handouts. Not everyone uses Essentials, which is a hand out. Many people are using other programs which may be harder, easier, or they might just like them more. Just so you know, high school don't matter no matter how well or poor you do. It is one big joke. As long as you do well on the standardized tests that you end up taking, it won't matter. If you truly want to be a game developer then you will spend that time learning how to code things out properly and Essentials is a good start for everyone I think. If anyone calls you gay or a nerd for liking Pokémon during/after high school then they have no self esteem and you should just blow them off. There are quite a few members here on PC that are in or have completed high school, myself included.

More on topic, as I posted on another topic. Essentials has it's ups and downs. It comes with a menu, Pokémon battle system, and just about every basic aspect to create a Pokémon game. However, it is properly named a starter kit for a reason. That is because it is to start someone off. It is by no means everything that is needed to make a whole game. You have to give developers like Neo-Dragon and Waudby (please no one else take offense if you are not using RMXP, they are just the two that always come to my mind on this subject) credit for making their own games from scratch. I really wish that Waudby would put together a basic Pokémon starter kit for Sphere so that people could see the difference.

What I think the real reason for this current trend of a new game every day is someone stumbles across Essentials. They then go out and download the hacked version if RMXP and decide that they have the best story ever for a game. They put no thought into it at all and post it with a screen shot of Pallet Town that has been changed so much Prof. Oak wouldn't even recognize it. They have ambitious dreams to map out all of Japan, Pokémon style. Then when someone come along and tells them that their dream is just that, a dream that won't ever be accomplished, they normally get all mad, flame and spam up the topic. Eventually there is no point checking and the thread dies. After that, they either come back with a new game or they are never heard from again.

Fortunately, the better game designers do just that, they design their game before they begin working on it. Once they feel that everything is in order they begin on their game. Currently the best example of that is riceeman and his game which just hit the showcase a few days ago.

I think I went on long enough with this and got my thoughts out.

Edit: Edited to fix Neo-Dragon's and riceeman's names.

 

[Anuhrima]

At first they were lazy, and learned to get what you want you have to work. And high school is no joke in my county. You have fights going on every day and if you saw the fight then you get suspended.And even though there dreams become crushed, more and more step in to take the place and shot for fame and respect