Smogon Stage 3 Suspect Testing

Yeah, it has started. You can find the thread here. This basically means that ghosts of the past (Deoxys-S and Garchomp, long time no see!) will be back to play on Smogon's new suspect ladder, whenever it's up. To summarize, all of the following suspects will be allowed on the same suspect ladder:

Shaymin-S
Garchomp
Latios
Manaphy
Latias
Deoxys-S

Also, if anybody wants to bump the suspect thread from forever ago, feel free to do so. It was pretty much a failure anyway since nobody actually posted, so rather than posting it again, I'll just wait for somebody to post in it (if anybody wants to). I'll move it to the Shoddy Lounge.

Also, you can post RMTs for the new ladder once it's up. But please, don't post some random suspect team you theorymoned. Those are such a waste of everyone's time, and if your team is metagame weak, I won't approve it. I normally don't do that with RMTs so that such poor teams can get the help they need, but the suspect test is generally for players who have a more advanced understanding of the metagame, so if you can't put together a half decent team, I'm not going to approve it.

Back to the test itself, this will be interesting. This thread is here to discuss the new ladder. You can theorymon or talk from personal experiences; I don't really care. However, if you choose to theorymon, please don't act like your opinions are surely correct, as it is called theorymon for a good reason.

As for my own personal thoughts...

I'm quite excited, and since I've been trying to get back into Pokemon for a week or so now, i'll probably start with this. Basically we have the two old suspects, Garchomp and Deoxys-S...from the Astral Projection days. Still, I actually think both will prove to be much less capable than before, especially Deoxys-S. The sweeper set now has to worry about Scizor, which is much more popular than the declining Bronzong ever was. The lead was the big problem though, and that could still be a huge problem. It can still be dealt with by random leads like ScarfGar (lol bad lead) and Scarf Skymin...but that's pretty damn centralizing. I honestly have a hard time theorymoning it since I stopped battling seriously around the time when the lead set became really popular and turned Deoxys-S from a non-issue into a suspect that almost everybody thought was Uber. Time will tell.

Then there's Garchomp...whoa boy. The only threatening sets are the SDer with LO (standard Cresselia still loses, and so do bulky waters with SR support...a given with Garchomp anyway) and CBChomp. However, Lati@s and the return of Deoxys-S will probably Garchomp...I'm not going to say how much since that's impossible to determine and i'd be stupid to act like i know, but it's interesting to think about. Outrage is certainly more dangerous since they can come in and just Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor Garchomp, and it's done (unless it misses...lol). Skymin also can flinch it or Seed Flare it...and Seed Flare hits like a nuke if it's against the few pokemon that dont actually resist it. Still, I expect it to be a huge and probably dominant threat, just like it was before. Garchomp always does have the possibility of abusing Substitute to deal with fast revenge killers, especially since Fire Fang is really only useful for Skarmory and sort of Bronzong. I'm quite fascinated with how Garchomp will turn out...remember, the Garchomp vote took place just as platinum came out, and A LOT has changed since then (like people realizing that sd scizor is a rather average physical sweeper, that registeel is sort of fail, etc). I think the new metagame will hurt Garchomp, but who knows.

Then there is Skymin...Manaphy, watch out! But seriously, this thing is seriously underwhelming and the last suspect I truly tested/cared about. The most obvious ou vote i'll ever advocate probably. Hax just doesnt save something this mediocre...it fell to 17th in usage from 10th for a good reason. The smogon test was honestly a joke that was poorly run at best, so a lot of those uber votes arent very valid =/ ...and probably some of the ou ones too. Either way, this thing...ugh. But that's not the point...what the new metagame will do to it interests me as well. It is faster than all of the other suspects with the exception of Deoxys-S, so it can actually do some damage to them. Its SR weak probably isnt going to be made any less severe, especially with lead Deoxys running around and how Garchomp needs it to do the most damage possible. Still, if people thought sand veil was bad, wait until they see what this thing can do when it comes to being a lucky piece of crap. I think it will hurt Manaphy especially for obvious reasons, and to a lesser extent Garchomp.

Latias...fail. With Latios around, Latias will be out of a job for most things. and yeah, I know extra SDef and Def can be nice etc etc, but let's not kid ourselves - latios is a much better sweeper. Specs Draco Meteor 2HKOes Steel-types...and I don't mean frail ones like Lucario. Timid Latios has more speed and satk than specsmence or modest specs latias. that's pretty insane. Tyranitar doesnt easily run it over like it does with Latias (although latias can bypass it pretty easily but w/e). I knwo the dual screen memento set was a huge fuss, but a lot of good players thought latias was uber. Latios, even without memento, is just a better version. I'll definitely be using it on at least a few of my teams.

Manaphy is probably not going to like the new metagame since it has problems with basically all of the suspects, even Deoxys-S to an extent. However, it is "another brick in the wall" (lol sorry) for Adamant CBchomp, which imo is garchomp's most terrifying set...much more than YacheHype. I havent actually played manaphy so idk though...it's basically theorymon at this point. Still, if there is one pokemon (besides Skymin, who technically wasnt decided) whose tier status I'd expect would change from Stage 3 testing, it would be Manaphy falling to OUs...but of course, that would depend not only on if my predictions were actually correct/Manaphy getting worse, but also the tier placements of the other suspects. Deoxys-S realistically isnt going to be unbanned imo, and ditto on Garchomp and Latios, but Skymin could be trouble...and if Garchomp or Latios is unbanned for whatever reason, that would be trouble.

Oh, we were actually going to post a tournament like this about a week ago but i never got around to it...but hey, with all the hype surrounding it now, all the more reason to get it up eventually.

Can't wait to play on this. Post away!

I'm pretty excited...here's some of thoughts ^^

Latios is probably gonna stay Uber, SpecsLatios is fearsome and the Dual Screen Memento fits the support characteristic for Uber easily.

Skymin, ughh...I haven't actually played against this thing much but I think its over-hyped. I'm not saying its a bad sweeper but honestly I find Garchomp more broken then this thing =/

Deoxys-S, in terms of offense he probably would fit into OU well but his lead set is pretty damn good. I'm not sure at the moment.

Manaphy..I dunno :(

Shaymin-S
Garchomp
Latios
Manaphy
Latias
Deoxys-S

Click to expand...

Here is my new team.

Nah but seriously ill enjoy smacking people around with team astral again without feeling bad because its actually legal now. ^.^ (Besides that team is fun as hell to use). Hi Anti lolol ;x

Shaymin S i think will stay down, it really annoys me when people overhype it, look at the top 20 pokes, shaymin is checked by like the majority of them. Honestly if hax was a reason for something being uber, Togekiss and those Scarf Iron head Jirachi would be uber too. Heck Togekiss is bulkier, has a better movepool and gets T-Wave/Body Slam so the speed different is a non issue and the Nasty Plotter sets up on Blissey. Also in theory Togekiss could easily beat both Rotom AND Zapdos with hax. The only problems ive ever had with it was when i used a stall team and even then it couldnt get past Skarmory. Yeah a special sweeper getting walled by a physical wall...yeah..awesum speciul sweeper dood 2/20. Also, Shaymin problems ? Use Crobat !!! The best Shaymin (Even land form) counter in the game, take a page out of UU and give the bat some love.

Im looking forward to using chompy chomp again. I never really used it much in D/P so yeah. I dunno, i think this can go either way i mean on one hand the metagame has changed quite a bit since Chomp was at its peak (Fun fact : Scizor is used MORE now than Garchomp was at its prime LOL!) and with Deoxys down and with Lati@s to revenge kill it AND with the metagame currently dominated with steel types anyway he might just have a small chance. Only time will tell.

Manaphy is ughh, i hate it and i hate rain dance teams even more and this idiot just centralizes EVERYTHING around them so will hopefully stay uber, i want this uber more than any of the others truth be told. Yeah i lurked some manaphy suspect matches and it was just literally "Who could get the Abomasnow out of the way first" ....lol =/. Calm Mind Manaphy poops all over so called checks in specs Jolt and Raikou and often non specs version cant even 2hko it after a Calm Mind with T-Bolt. Manaphy is just too bulky and can set up so easily, heck it doesnt even need the Rain to beat Blissey.

Latios will be uber imo. Most good choice users dont have really good counters anyways and Latios is no exception. However, the thing that tips it in uber favor is that darn Dual Screen + Memento set (Guarantees Gliscor can set up)---> Baton pass Gliscor (Lives all ice beams under a light screen)(SD+RP+Taunt+BP)---->Physical sweeper strategy. Basically nothing can stop this bar a well timed crit or a Brick Break + Explosion Metagross. =/

Latias....lol


Deoxys-S will still be uber, it is still one of the best revenge killers out there and can smack around alot of the metagame with its wide coverage. Also those of you planning to switch Scizor into it...dont. Thunderbolt can 2hko Max hp variants with SR up. Also that dual screen set is just stupid, thats the set that will make it uber. Im not looking forward to facing the dual screen set at all.


I love theorymoning. ^^

Shaymin-S - OU

I agree with Anti in some aspects, hax isn't a reason for it to be Uber. There are sweepers with more potential, it's just that Shaymin has an amazing STAB move that allows it to 2HKO many if the SpD drop is activated. It will be interesting to see how it performs.

Garchomp - OU

We've all been down this path before. I changed opinions on the matter over and over back then, but I do believe Garchomp is OU. It's basically the BL between OU and Uber, never used in Uber and banned from OU. As with Skymin, hax can't be a factor in deciding it's positioning, and with Salamence now getting Outrage I think Garchomp does have a fight for it's place. Mence has Intimidate, Garchomp has Sand Veil.

Latios - Uber

Well, imho I can't see this becoming OU. It outclasses Latias, even if it does have lower SpD.

Manaphy - ?

Haven't used it nor do I know it's status/movepool.

Latias - OU

It's usage hasn't been amazing lately, and Tyranitar is probably the best counter for it anyway. With the number of priority users (Ice Shard Mamo, Weavile (lol)) etc, Latias doesn't have a MASSIVE impact like I believe Latios would.

Deoxys-S - ??

Frankly, no clue. Screen set itself is a case for Uber, it's support options outclass anything else in OU.

____

I'll edit if and when I do more testing, blah blah.

~T_S

I dunno, there's a lot of centralizing and I just usually go with whatever. But speaking from personal experiences ...

Shaymin-S : I think this thing got banned for like haxing too much >_>. It's signature move is just plain uber from my perspective. Combine this with it's other, stats leech seed and it can sweep, take on Blissey (rofl), and accomplish anything.

Deoxy - S : My lead on one of my major teams ( I don't recall any though). IMO, it's outclassed by in the support section but I favour Mirror / Counter sets but hey =].

Latias : Imo, not much impact, I havent seen it often but maybe that's because im in the 900 - 1100 range, but I've seen it not used well or killed off quite easily *cough* Vileplume *cough*.

Garchomp : I wanna see this guy back for one reason, lots of arguements =3. Anyways, it was strong back then and it's stats dont change but the metagame does as anti stated (or the conditions surrounding it). But from very little experience, I can't say much...

K, I'm done, someone's prolly gonna go and prove me wrong / incorrect / stupid somehow though so go figure >_>

I think everyone bar Latias and Shaymin-S will stay Uber (although I would love it if Chompy went to OU). Garchomp is used on 20% of Uber teams (April stats), but really loses in Ubers because Tyranitar is on very few of these teams. Garchomp NEEDS that Sand Veil hax to stay alive in OU, where Mence, Gengar, Heatran, Mixape, Latias, Starmie, and Weavile will outspeed it (though Mence requires a DD to do so) and OHKO it with HP Ice, Dragon Pulse, Ice Shard, or Ice Beam. Garchomp is going to get that much needed Sand Veil hax though, since Tyranitar is running amok on the OU ladder (7th most used). Since this would overcentralize the metagame (Huge number of Sandstorm teams running around), I feel that most people will scream "GARCHOMP HAS HAX AND KILLS US ALL MAKE IT UBER NAO."

That's the theorymon part. Personally, I would love to see Garchomp back. I feel that only the Choice Scarf set would pose a problem to teams, and that can be easily outpredicted. Garchomp doesn't get Dragon Dance, so if Mence sets up a DD, it says "Thank you for coming, have a great day!" to Garchomp. I also would love to create a team built around smashing teams apart with Garchomp, since I used the behemoth only once before it went to Ubers (yeah, I came in late).

Deoxys-S:
I think this should stay Uber. I have seen a lot of people complaining about how useful it was to them and it just further justifies my point. To many people relied on this pokemon. Which in my mind made it overly centralized. The revenge killer set I used at a time (Pre-Uberification) and i found it extremely deadly. To boost I tested out the lead set which I found to be a tad ridiculous. I could set up Rocks / Spikes / screens w/e I wanted with such easy it was almost laughable.

Shaymin-S:
Not even close to uber in my personal opinion. I would actually LOVE for it to be OU due to it maybe causing the usage of pokemon that lost their usage when plat arrived. (ScarfGar / Weavile / etc)
Shaymin-S is so easily checked it's unreal. Every one points out to me that it can take down a blissey with serene hax Seed Flare... True it can... IF it gets the hax and thats IF I'm not running Ice beam or the even more common Flamethrower. Blissey WILL knock it's points down a good bit. Ice Beam from blissey does a hell of a lot if not a OHKO (have not calculated it). It's extremely easy to be revenge killed considering most revenge killers pack a scarf and have enough speed to out pace it's base 127.

Garchomp:
Although I was against Garchomps ban to begin with I find the metagame a lot more, for lack of a better word, stable. I don't open an OU RMT and see Garchomp on every team. It helped with the usage (which was getting ridiculous) of some things like Cress or such. I do however admit that with the new Platinum movesets it WOULD be a tad easier to take down. But not by much. I mean the most deeming things that were used to take it down got even less usable with the increase of CB Pursuit scizor and such (causing the less usage of Gengar). I could see it on both sides of the spectrum but I do feel it should stay Uber.

Latias:
Ok, Latias has been tested so much. Soul Dew has the same power as a specs so I dont' see it as being that broken. Though it IS a bit annoying of an item for it to have. Latias has been used a lot these days and I don't see at that big of a threat. A LOT of things can KO it respectfully and it's a large Pursuit bait type of pokemon.

Latios:
Wow Latios would be nice in OU wouldn't it? lol. However, no it's much to powerful for OU. It has a VAST amount of capabilities given it gets Dragon Dance AND Calm Mind. His Specs Draco would do more than about 3/4's to even a heatran and would be powerful enough to nearly annihilate most steel types.

Manaphy:
Ok, I know on paper Manaphy Tail Glow Rain sweeper is amazing in OU. I however would like to point out, that i has to HAVE rain up. Assuming it wants to run RD and Tailglow that doesn't give it much room for comfort on its moveslot. Hydration can cure it's sleep and other status but it does not kill its health. So while this thing is tail glowing you could be smacking it around pretty hard. It's speed isn't much compared to most things that would be the pull in for it.

Just some of my thoughts.

A few comments.

Dark_Wynaut said:

Deoxy - S : My lead on one of my major teams ( I don't recall any though). IMO, it's outclassed by in the support section but I favour Mirror / Counter sets but hey =].

Click to expand...

Deoxys-S? An outclassed supporter? By what exactly? You're joking...right? Let's see, dual screen, SR, Spikes, Taunt (to stop EVERYTHING else from setting up), and a ton of Speed to abuse it. Nothing comes even close to outclassing it as a supporter (especially as a lead). Deoxys-S is to team support what Blissey is to special walling to be honest. I mean that's a pretty bogus claim. =/

Skip Shot said:

I feel that only the Choice Scarf set would pose a problem to teams, and that can be easily outpredicted.

Click to expand...

AAAAAAAAAA what? CBChomp is arguably the best Choice Bander ever to be introduced since the item was introduced in RSE...how is that not threatening? It's basically CBMence except not SR weak, a Rock resist instead of a Rock weakness, immunity to SS damage, STAB Earthquake, and a little more Speed...and CBMence is a monster.

On the SD set I'm actually inclined to agree (which I will get to in a moment), but it's more than capable of posing problems to teams. As much of a joke as I think YacheChomp is, it's more than a threat to teams...it's a top-tier threat. The two best possible STABs in the game to have plus a +2 Atk move to boost them even more speaks for itself. On the contrary, ScarfChomp isn't an offensive threat at all (unless you're not prepared for it, but that's true of everything). It lacks power and it can't switch moves. It's a wonderful revenge killer, but any even average team shouldn't be threatened by ScarfChomp until the VERY late stages of a battle.


But nitpicks at arguments aside, I did want to talk about my first impressions of Garchomp some more...wow, I almost feel guilty for originally thinking that thing was OU...since it's really much worse so far. DP Garchomp looks very terrifying compared to this one. CB Scizor did not help Garchomp out at all, even though it still lives Bullet Punch with a ton of health to spare (~50% iirc). The presence of Skymin and Lati@s have really shown just how "unique" Garchomp's Speed tier really is...even I didn't expect it to be this underwhelming. I haven't played on the ladder, but I've been watching a lot of matches (not just Vance's lol), and Garchomp has seriously been disappointing. It's still an insane threat, but wow, YacheChomp has been nerfed a lot, and CBChomp could soon follow.

I expect Skymin to be voted OU once cooler heads prevail (aka not the ones screaming "OMG UBAR HAX"), and Latias will still be around if Garchomp is voted OU. I think Garchomp would kick Scizor off the top spot on the ladder, but I think Garchomp has gotten worse, and having OU Skymin and Latias would not help! Obviously, this is based on a lot of theorymon and one day on the ladder, and a lot can change. But unless usage of certain pokemon dies down, i doubt that Garchomp will return to its former glory. I dont think it will be enough to get its ban overturned though...Sand Veil really turns off a lot of players and its power is impossible to deny. I'm VERY interested to see how the suspect ladder will evolve over the next 8 weeks.

Also rofl poor Latias, why people are even using it is beyond me...

EDIT: Yeah I know it's a pretty extreme reaction for Garchomp, but imo it wasnt Uber before, and at the very least it hasnt gotten any better, so you know...I kind of want Garchomp back. But if that happens...poor Flygon =(

I've been testing these on shoddy

Shaymin-S - meh OU for sure, I don't really see what makes it uber. hax? Sure lets ban other pokemon that abuse hax :]

Garchomp - I dunno, yacheset has lost its touch, scarfchomp looks most effective right now, but I've been bumping into scarf Latios's o_O. CBScizor BP ripping like 50% of chomp's health, I'm not finding chomp so difficult to handle, aswel as the lati@s's twins able to outspeed it.

Latios - I duno, This thing has made chomps yacheset less effective =D, Scizor easily revenge kills this after its used Draco-meteor.

Manaphy - OU maybe? lol, It hasn't able to shine, hmm Manaphy just not able to stand up against the likes of specs Latios's Drao-Meteor and Garchomp's outrage, oh with skymin around, that doesn't help either. >_>

Latias - OU, its overshadowed by its twin

Deoxys-S - Uber, This thing is the only one giving me trouble, such an annoying lead.

As some of you know, I don't play OU, but I would like to take the chance to let you know if you want to discuss this further with people, please visit The Pokecommunity's official Shoddy server. Just click on the advanced tab on the welcome screen and enter:

battle.shinou.com
80

You can discuss this stuff live with other people while getting to know your fellow PCers.

Ok ive been laddering a bit so ill give a bit more insight that isnt theorymon.

Shaymin-S - Basically this thing hasnt caused problems in the slightest. Once Stealth Rock goes up its utter Scizor/<insert revenge killer> bait. Bullet Punch owns it and it cant even 2hko 252 HP Scizor with Air Slash. Mamoswine, Heatran and all the steels seemingly high in usage doesnt help it much either.

Garchomp - Honestly ive seen a Mamoswine on nearly every team and i find it shocking that people say yache chomp has lost its touch. It really hasnt, its so easilly to fake a (much more common) scarf chomp due to them not seeing the item and can set up. Latios/Mamo etc actually does a surprizingly job of keeping it in check too, as things stand things look hopeful for chomp since it actually hasnt been overwhelming.

Latios - Seems most of them i play lose to Pursuit...lol. (Mine included, despite anti Pursuit moves aka HP Fire and Surf). Havent seen a dual screener yet, although brick break on everything doesnt help. Ive seen a few scarf Latios too, which makes the Pursuit weak even worse imo.

Manaphy - Rain Dance is still annoying. This idiot centralized everything around weather which means "Ohai i outspeed your entire team even WITH scarfers, revenge killers and overwhelm your counters and proceed to own your entire team" >_>. Then there is Manaphy, Calm Mind Manaphy destroys everything even things like checks such as Skymin. This thing has stood out the most to me thus far, thank goodness more people dont use it =/

Latias - Non existant. I havent seen ANY.

Deoxys-S - Brick Break seems to be on everything, Scizor, Metagross. etc. The dual spiker is arguably more effective at this point. Deoxys is the lead to beat no doubt, but as of yet it seems very underwhelming. Probably since everyone IS trying to counter it, idk. Anyways havent seen the sweeper set like at all oddly.

Basically small things can determine the outcome of games in this metagame and it almost seems as though, you know that poker like atmosphere in pokemon matches? That seems amplified here for some reason. In addition it seems as though i was just trading ko's with my opponents most of the time. Tl;Dr, everything hits HARD and FAST and very offensive, no stall what so ever, but the majority of threats have been manageable thus far. Anyways its a load of fun either way. ^^

yache garchomp coupled with sandstorm can be a pain in the ass.

Samson said:

yache garchomp coupled with sandstorm can be a pain in the ass.

Click to expand...

Only if dragon attacks from the Lati@s and ScarfChomp miss...YacheChomp has been rather ineffective since (at least for now) nobody is even trying to beat it with a random Ice Beam abuser.

People are already suggesting that stall is actually viable in this metagame, so hopefully that's a sign that this might evolve wuickly and not become 4 suspects plus 2 anti suspect pokemon which is basically what it has been so far.

So far the only thing that looks broken to me Deoxys-s. I really don't need to go into details to explain.

Garchomp seems to ditch its yache berry for Haban Berry, kinda works well, I've been seeing people netting at least 1 kill with it.

If this metagame were to continue, were would salamence end up? O_O

I find YacheChomp to be completely disappointing, actually. Mamo? Uh, seems to me there's more Scarfed dragons running around than that mammoth from what I've seen. :(

Garchomp overall has been quite underwhelming for me, at least with Latios having quite the feast on this ladder. Latios and Manaphy are working for me, and gee, I've only see one Latias, and it was just LO. =/

LOVE this metagame though, feel like the metagame thrives on the style I prefer. BUT, I have seen some rather successful stall teams as of late, call it crazy, but no joke. o-o;

I suck at theorymon but I'll just post what I think will happen.

Shaymin-S-
By how it sounds maybe OU. Takes 25% SR damage and I think can be walled by Blissey?
Garchomp- <3 Love this guy. ScarfChomp imo is win. Although more steels will give this guy trouble. I think time for OU.
Latios- Uber. Too good for OU.
Manaphy- I predict with Skymin this guy will drop to OU.
Latias- Already OU, dominated by Latios, and good at OU.
Deoxys-S A pwnful Uber. Can hit in both physical and special aspects. Staying Uber imo and a awesome lead.

Latios and Deoxys-S are going to mean everything in standard is carrying Brick Break it seems, which isn't amazingly great for the metagame. Fighting types are gonna suffer probably.
Skymin was Uber?
Manaphy SHOULD be OU. It's ability is great and stats good, but it isn't amazingly versatile. An increase of Psych Up or Snatch? That would be good for the metagame...
Garchomp.... I haven't laddered yet so how many SD users are there? Any Smeargle combos yet? What's stopping him, other suspects?
Why is Latios being tested? There are no positive effects of it in OU. There's just another huge threat that is difficult to counter. Pursuit beating it sounds interesting. Nobody's using screens it seems.

Deoxys-s getting removed from the server. oo I guess this opens up the gate for other pokemon i.e Gyarados perhaps!

_Prince_ said:

Deoxys-s getting removed from the server. oo I guess this opens up the gate for other pokemon i.e Gyarados perhaps!

Click to expand...

Yeah, I just saw this about an hour ago...now the Choice Scarf chaos might die down and some form of thought and strategy might be put into teams. Deoxys-S super-centralized leads...it wasn't even funny. I think we can all agree that it's good that he's gone.

Why is Latios being tested? There are no positive effects of it in OU. There's just another huge threat that is difficult to counter. Pursuit beating it sounds interesting. Nobody's using screens it seems.

Click to expand...

Eh what?

Anyways I am glad Deoxys E is getting removed, it speed games were just plain insane.