3rd Gen You can call me Lance the dragon trainer

Kanto's Elite Four shows experts of the ice, fighting, ghost and dragon type. At least, that's what they claim to be.

Lorelei has only four ice type team members (that's equal to her number of water Pokémon), Bruno has only three fighting Pokémon, Agatha has only three ghost Pokémon (but actually a mono-poison team) and Lance's team consist of only three actual dragons.

So, what do you think of this? Do you like the little more variation in the Pokémon team or in fact dislike the contradiction to the expertise? What about the rematch teams?

I always thought expertise in a type also meant knowing how to cover that types weaknesses and resistances.
If anything, the "pure" typed gym leaders and elite four members are mostly novices who couldn't defend against a sweeper of the opposing type if their very lives depended on it.
I think the lack of "purity" in the elite four typing teams, allows the Elite four the chance to actually protect themselves from their main weaknesses which would then reflect the true power of their typing choice. If they have the ability to protect their prize typed pokemon, it makes the actual combat prowess of that typed pokemon all the more scary.

The variety they carry makes them look less stupid and more of a challenge, like they actually deserved to be in the pokemon league. Almost as if (unlike every other trainer in the entire game) they actually realize that there is in fact a weakness and resistance chart and they try at the barest minimum to apply a small knowledge of that to their team design.

While the lack of diversity makes me dislike FRLG, it is completely understandable. As they wanted the remakes to end up as a copy-paste of RG, but what they didn't realize that really dragged the game down rather than helping Kanto.

They are probably thinking that copy-paste is gonna bring back all the original fans. Nah, it doesn't.

Achromatic said:

It's pretty interesting in my opinion and I really like seeing some diversity. However I think Lance has a Dragonite which shouldn't even be one since it doesn't evolve at the level he has it at...super weird.

Click to expand...

nitpick, but that's a gsc thing. lance's nite even pre-rematch is high enough, it's like lv 60 or so.

the rematch teams are a really nice touch and are fantastic for training difficult-to-train pokes like breloom (needs over 1600000 exp points and spore punching is a major pain) and slaking (truant lol) to lv 100. also cool to see a tyranitar.

I think it's good that there is a bit of diversity. They specialize in using a certain type, but I don't think that means all of their roster should be that type. I think having a few different types in there gives us more of a challenge because then we might not have to use only a couple of our Pokemon that are super effective against them, rather use some more of our team and think about our next move a bit more carefully.

Unapologetic Sunflower said:

While the lack of diversity makes me dislike FRLG, it is completely understandable. As they wanted the remakes to end up as a copy-paste of RG, but what they didn't realize that really dragged the game down rather than helping Kanto.

They are probably thinking that copy-paste is gonna bring back all the original fans. Nah, it doesn't.

Click to expand...

Unapologetic Sunflower pretty much said it. FRLG were a blind copy/paste of RB, which meant that they had all of the originals' flaws, including their shallow Pokédex and mediocre trainer teams.

Admittedly, Lorelei's team wasn't bad at all, and seeing how poor of a type Ice was by Gen 3, having Slowbro probably helped her more than hurt. Because of this, her rematch team was arguably worse than her original one, especially because of how pathetic of a Pokémon Piloswine was in Gen 3. (Unfortunately for Lorelei, FRLG came out a Generation too early.)

Bruno was, well, Bruno, and even by Gen 3, good Fighting types and moves were still low in number. If they refused to add Steelix to the Dex, they could've at least replaced his two rock worms with Rhydon and Golem. Otherwise, there's not much saving his team. (Ideally, he'd be made a Gym Leader and a more competent trainer, like Sabrina, would be put in his place.)

Now, Agatha and Lance, on the other hand, were pathetic. They were SUPPOSED to be the two strongest E4 members, but because Ghost and Dragon were so low in number, they were stuck using mediocre teams full of Dupes and NFEs. Even worse, their teams were still monotype, but just the WRONG monotype--Poison for Agatha and Flying for Lance. And, surprise, FRLG didn't do a DAMN thing to fix their teams. They were still just as much a cheap Psychic/Ice Beam spamfest as they were in RBY. :rolleyes2:

At least I'm happy Sabrina never made it to the elite four. Think about facing Sabrina with 3 Alakazam's in one team... On the other hand, the most stupid Pokémon League will always be the one from the Metal generation, cause it lacked difficulty and challenge. Even in games like Liquid crystal who was a fan-remake with a much higher level curve, the league didn't feel particularly difficult. Having a Psychic-type with a move like Ghost ball and Psychic can easily wipe out a lot of the elite four. Bruno is perhaps even more strange than Lance, especially for having two Onix!?

The most challenging and most feared elite four by me personally, was the one in Diamond/Pearl/Platinum. Especially in Diamond/Pearl, cause they were wicked strong. They all had good movesets, were efficient against super-effective moves, used their stats well. Cynthia had a type which was nearly impossible to beat considering Spiritomb's type, Garchomp and his moves... nightmares.

Unapologetic Sunflower said:

While the lack of diversity makes me dislike FRLG, it is completely understandable. As they wanted the remakes to end up as a copy-paste of RG, but what they didn't realize that really dragged the game down rather than helping Kanto.

They are probably thinking that copy-paste is gonna bring back all the original fans. Nah, it doesn't.

Click to expand...

You do have to admit that you are spot-on about this in every way. I feel like FR/LG were nothing but huge fanservice towards the 1st Gen nostalgia freaks, and it pretty much feels just like you were playing Red/Blue all over again. The restrictions on evolution of certain Pokemon before postgame was just awful, meaning you couldn't get an awesome Crobat or Blissey or Bellossom, or in fact any cross-gen evolution from 2nd Gen.

It was pretty much the worst of the modern era main series games, in that it did nothing new except fancier graphics compared to the original. Even if someone wanted me to play the games now I'd still say no.

Hikamaru said:

You do have to admit that you are spot-on about this in every way. I feel like FR/LG were nothing but huge fanservice towards the 1st Gen nostalgia freaks, and it pretty much feels just like you were playing Red/Blue all over again. The restrictions on evolution of certain Pokemon before postgame was just awful, meaning you couldn't get an awesome Crobat or Blissey or Bellossom, or in fact any cross-gen evolution from 2nd Gen.

It was pretty much the worst of the modern era main series games, in that it did nothing new except fancier graphics compared to the original. Even if someone wanted me to play the games now I'd still say no.

Click to expand...

And, what's even worse is that FRLG actually flopped pretty hard with those so-called "1st Gen nostalgia freaks." The few changes the games did make were annoying/inconvenient for most of them, like the help system and awkward Gen 3 mechanics, so most older fans just stuck with the original games over FRLG. Most of these people had zero interest in even playing RSE, let alone trading anything to them, so FRLG were literally useless.

Of course, FRLG are now even more useless since they can't be played on the current handheld and its Pokémon can now be easily found in other, newer games. FRLG have long outlived their purpose.

BettyNewbie said:

And, what's even worse is that FRLG actually flopped pretty hard with those so-called "1st Gen nostalgia freaks." The few changes the games did make were annoying/inconvenient for most of them, like the help system and awkward Gen 3 mechanics, so most older fans just stuck with the original games over FRLG. Most of these people had zero interest in even playing RSE, let alone trading anything to them, so FRLG were literally useless.

Of course, FRLG are now even more useless since they can't be played on the current handheld and its Pokémon can now be easily found in other, newer games. FRLG have long outlived their purpose.

Click to expand...

I'm a "1st gen nostalgia freak" and I like FRLG a lot. The graphics really were much better than the originals, and the Item holders were so much bigger. I hated that in the OG R/B/Y you had to put certain items away.

I'm suprised no one mentioned the Sevii Islands

Shadowless420 said:

I'm a "1st gen nostalgia freak" and I like FRLG a lot. The graphics really were much better than the originals, and the Item holders were so much bigger. I hated that in the OG R/B/Y you had to put certain items away.

Click to expand...

I could get all of those things from GSC, though, plus a lot more (like Day/Night and new Pokémon). You could say that maybe I was expecting too much from a remake (FRLG) compared to a sequel (GSC), but HGSS weren't nearly as much of a straight retread as FRLG were. Plus, remake or not, I still kind of expect a GBA game to have more features than a GB/C one.

Anyways, this thread's about Lance, so I feel like I should also mention this--I was VERY disappointed with how FRLG handled his character. Even ignoring the fact that the games did nothing to even remotely fix his team (obviously mono-Dragon wasn't happening, but they could've at least ditched the Dragonairs), the games also did zilch to flesh him out and set up his role in the Gen 2 games. The Sevii Island Team Rocket plot was supposed to be a direct precursor to Gen 2's Lake of Rage plot, yet for some reason, they gave Lorelei more involvement with it than the E4 member who was actually relevant to the story. Couldn't they have at least shown Lance helping her out and investigating the Rocket Warehouse? Talk about a missed opportunity.

Mister Coffee said:

I always thought expertise in a type also meant knowing how to cover that types weaknesses and resistances.
If anything, the "pure" typed gym leaders and elite four members are mostly novices who couldn't defend against a sweeper of the opposing type if their very lives depended on it.
I think the lack of "purity" in the elite four typing teams, allows the Elite four the chance to actually protect themselves from their main weaknesses which would then reflect the true power of their typing choice. If they have the ability to protect their prize typed pokemon, it makes the actual combat prowess of that typed pokemon all the more scary.

The variety they carry makes them look less stupid and more of a challenge, like they actually deserved to be in the pokemon league. Almost as if (unlike every other trainer in the entire game) they actually realize that there is in fact a weakness and resistance chart and they try at the barest minimum to apply a small knowledge of that to their team design.

Click to expand...

I like this idea, and think it's a good idea, I just think it gets rediculous when Flint, for example, has a team that isn't even close to fire. Steelix, Lopunny, and Driftblim have one fire move each. I don't mind having a diverse move set, but when it isn't even remotely close, I hate it.