5th Gen I actually feel very sorry to beat my rivals in BW.

This is a problem I have with Gen 5 games (BW at least).
To sum it up: while many people say that that Cheren and Bianca found their place in life and matured in BW, I think that by constantly beating them MC robs them of their ambitions and faith in their abilities until they... do what they do in BW 2.

Both Cheren and Bianca at the end of the game have powerful teams. Each of them can easily beat at least one of the Elite four and take their place. Cheren has a good chance to compete for a champion place. This is why I'm so frustrated to see them becoming... them in BW2.
Cheren ends up becoming a gym leader. From solely game perspective, he sucks. He is yet another first gym leader to be beaten, even if he is slightly stronger then average garbage first gl. From story perspective - it took him 2 years to just open his gym and he even doesn't have his own building. Again, this is the person who could easily beat every member of the Elite four.
Bianca's story is even more tragic. She starts her journey with self-esteem problems. While we look at her during BW, she proves to be a hard worker who wants to become a strong trainer and, at some point, a model. Neat. But than game constantly tells her: "Your hard work and dreams mean nothing because your friend X is a genius prodigy and you have zero chances to beat him, ever". At the end of BW Bianca becomes an assistant of Juniper. Two years passed and her only meaningful role in game is to be a delivery girl who gives us a starter. In game there are no info about her progress in any science field. Even Juniper doesn't care about Bianca - when she and MC travel by plane from town to town, Juniper leaves her assistant behind and doesn't even hide that she simply forgot about her.
Many people say that themes of realising your own limits and accepting difference between your ideals and truth are so great and mature. Let me ask you something. How come that no main series MC doesn't have such problems? If being not the strongest and accepting it is so fantasic, why MC becomes the strongest trainer in each respective game? Where is an option to lose to my rivals and still progress the game? Maybe I don't want to be the champion and want either Bianca or Cheren to be the best.
So... does somebody feel the same way?

SirEdgen said:

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Hello! Just letting you know your thread is more suiting in the Previous Gens forums since it's talking more about the Gen 5 games over the franchise as a whole.

It's been a while since I've played the Gen 5 games but I don't think I've felt bad for beating my rivals. How I see it is Cheren spends his time in the first game becoming the strongest but then later in the sequels he changes his opinion and becomes the first gym leader as an entry point for trainers. And Bianca does gain character growth as well as she goes from not being able to adventure because of her dad to becoming the professor's assistant. I could probably replay the games and maybe that will change though.

I got that feeling more from XY, or at least that's how I remember it. The rest of the friend/rival group constantly exalts the player. Calem/Serena start to become frustrated with their inability to beat the player. Trevor always "loses" when the two of you compare Pokedexes, but there's no actual check the player has to pass afaik. Tierno challenges the player to battle a few times and then more or less praises them despite his thing being dancing, so a) it's only natural that he loses and b) I'd easily lose to him in a dance competition, but that never happens. The last time I played through XY I felt like at some point that I was crushing and devouring the souls of these children really. Even worse, none of them really have any real conclusions to their character arcs.

But it's not uncommon in games with self-insert characters to have the player be some infallible, genius juggernaut and for ~99% of the other characters to suck your figurative dick. And it's not really something I care for, both because it's stale and because it's like....c'mon, stop with the praise and shit, I'm not special and I'm not good for anything.

Nah said:

I got that feeling more from XY, or at least that's how I remember it. The rest of the friend/rival group constantly exalts the player. Calem/Serena start to become frustrated with their inability to beat the player. Trevor always "loses" when the two of you compare Pokedexes, but there's no actual check the player has to pass afaik. Tierno challenges the player to battle a few times and then more or less praises them despite his thing being dancing, so a) it's only natural that he loses and b) I'd easily lose to him in a dance competition, but that never happens. The last time I played through XY I felt like at some point that I was crushing and devouring the souls of these children really. Even worse, none of them really have any real conclusions to their character arcs.

But it's not uncommon in games with self-insert characters to have the player be some infallible, genius juggernaut and for ~99% of the other characters to suck your figurative dick. And it's not really something I care for, both because it's stale and because it's like....c'mon, stop with the praise and shit, I'm not special and I'm not good for anything.

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i miss rivals who offered an actual challenge and had that true rivalry spirit. blue, silver, barry, and even hugh to an extent. i don't get what made pokemon go from those, to actual simps in newer games. do they think that kids these days can't handle even an ounce of competiton anymore? what the heck happened

I'd say that BW2 just showed a change in perspective, which is fine. Like, sometimes you realize that your goals aren't that simple or will need you to do things you thought you wouldn't.

Bianca never really wanted to be a trainer - she could have managed to beat the Elite Four or Alder but it's not like she was all about battling. While her presence in BW2 could have been handled better, I usually see it more as she's just travelling and vibing - maybe doing field research more actively instead of being an administrative assistant.

Cheren on the other hand, found a position where he can people train and battle - as shown by his gym trainers outright shouting him out. Sure it's not Elite Four - and I do think Cheren would have been a better champion than Iris - but it's a position where you can get a lot of battling. He's basically doing what Alder does, and that's fine.

Cheren found out that he's strong enough already and decided that instead of pursuing more strength for himself, he could help others. People change and so do their goals.

Roni said:

i miss rivals who offered an actual challenge and had that true rivalry spirit. blue, silver, barry, and even hugh to an extent. i don't get what made pokemon go from those, to actual simps in newer games. do they think that kids these days can't handle even an ounce of competiton anymore? what the heck happened

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Uhh, okay, there's a lot to unpack here.

First, I'd argue that Blue and Silver aren't really very good rivals in a story kind of way.

If you look at Blue's dialog, he's just ... rude and arrogant. He oftens whines, will say things like "You lucked out" or "I took it easy on you" when you beat him. That's not being a good rival, that's being a sore loser.

Silver is Blue, but actively hostile and with a tacked on "friendship good" arc at the end. He actively insults the players, treat the Pokémon like fighting robots until the end where he has an epiphany that maybe he needs to treat his Pokémon better.

I agree with you on Barry, he's a good rival. I like him. Thing is, storywise Hop is essentially Barry, but black. They're both friendly, cheerful childhood friends who have a strong male figure casting a shadow on them (Palmer in Platinum, Leon in Sw/Sh). They have a story arc where after some defeats they question whether they're really strong or not but come back around in the end.

Bede is essentially Silver. An unpleasant person with the "strong is all that matters" mentality that comes back around in the end. I will give it to you though that Marnie felt a bit forgettable compared to those two.

Hau is just vibing and being nice to the kid he's only met for like a hot minute. Like, they don't have enough intimacy to be throwing shade at each other.

As for Gen VI, I will give you that most of the rivals there felt forced and out there, but I'll say that Calem / Serena did have a rivalry spirit. You don't get bitter over something you don't care about - they got bitter that they lost so they were trying to surpass you.

I understand if you're griping about them being easier, but from a story perspective I'd say that the rivals from the DS area onwards are generally more complex characters and with more importance to the plot than the earlier gens.

And I'd say that's a more important part of being a "good" rival to me - we all know we'll win in the end, if we don't the game ends. So if all the character does is whine, they're very two dimensional and that's usually not a very good character.

I think that Pokemon should allow you to progress through the game, even if you lose against your rival, instead of getting sent to the Pokemon Center.

-Wait, this happens only when you lose against Hugh on your first battle...then, if you lose every battle after that, you get sent to the Pokemon Center.

As for the other stuff you talked about.. I don't know 😅