[Discussion] Should we replace PPoints with a Power Gauge?

[Matsjo]

This thread assumes that any innovation is possible, unburdened by history or tradition or the practical concerns of implementation. It ís about thinking about interesting changes, additions and mechanics that any Pokémon game (or spin-off thereof) could implement. If your contribution is something to the effect of "I couldn't transfer my Pokémon to the new game with this change" or "I'm not used to this" please deposit the reply somewhere else.

Hey there Pokéfans,

There's a mechanical matter I'd like to propose to you guys and girls. I've spent some time over the months thinking of all sorts of changes and possibilities for Pokémon games and recently I've gotten to thinking of one that is so large a change that I would really appreciate feedback to the very notion of it.

We all know that during Pokémon battles a Pokes different moves have PP; a fixed amount of times the Poke can use the move before it has to restore it in some way (usually through a quick PokéCentre visit). Weaker moves can be used more often, stronger moves only a few times. Now, this is a functional system, but carries with it a certain shallowness: a Pokémon can fire off a rapid succession of very powerful moves without tiring, until all of a sudden it loses the ability to use the move altogether??? Either the Poke càn or càn't use the move, and there is no middle ground to be found.

So I got to thinking, what if instead of PP, all Pokémon had an extra Gauge (below the HP bar) that tracked its remaining Power (functionally stamina), which is used up by performing moves. For example, Pokémon might start a battle with 20 points in the Gauge, the Gauge refills by 2 points at the end of each turn by default. Then, any move has a PP cost; say 6 for a move like Swift. Then every time the Pokémon uses Swift, it uses up 6 PP, and if at the start of a Pokes turn it doesn't have enough PP for the move, it can't use it!

The change would necessitate the addition of a "Wait" option in combat to regain PP more quickly but lose the turn, and a whole range of new move and Ability effects can be implemented around this new mechanic!

Players would have to start to ration their energy consumption, plan ahead for using powerful moves, medium-power moves would become more useful and balanced and defensive Pokémon can be more effective seeing as endless sweeps will be far more difficult.

Now, what do you guys think of this idea? Is it too complicated? Does it mess with that juicy Pokéflow too much? Or might this just be one to consider? So far my thought-experiments turn out pretty positive, but hey, that might be author's bias.

Looking forward to your thoughts,
Matthias

PS: if someone beat me to the punch on this, I'd appreciate (a) link(s) to it!

 

[Dragonite Ernston]

I came up with this idea once, as a stat known as "Endurance".

https://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8593114&postcount=4

 

[yaywalter]

My upcoming fangame Pokemon Purple will implement a system similar to Final Fantasy's ATB system. A "sync" meter will continually fill up during the course of battle, and different actions will require different amounts of "sync" to be able to execute. The player will be able to execute an action at any time, as long as they've got enough sync.

Here's a mockup of what the battle screen is going to look like:

For instance, an attack like Tackle might only use 20 or 30% sync, but a crazy powerful move like Hyper Beam might use 150% or more.

 

[DaSpirit]

I approve of this idea if and only if the game is balanced. It is difficult to balance it with so many different numbers of attacks and Pokemon.

 

[Maruno]

This is basically another suggestion of simply having a mana pool (that's what I'm going to call it), but you've added a tweak to say that this pool should be small in size, and regenerate after each round. That particular caveat, I think, needs a little more thought.

I think your caveat would just lead to longer and more tedious battles, since you could only fire off one or two Hyper Beams before needing to waste time recovering. That is, you'd run out of mana in most battles. This fact forces the player to prefer weaker moves with lower costs, which still makes the battles last longer. I don't think that's a good thing.

In other games with a mana or stamina bar, there's usually one or two basic attacks you can always use, which don't cost anything. These would be moves like Tackle or Scratch. You haven't mentioned anything like this. The problem is, if you're sticking to a 4-move limit, you're going to end up sacrificing some of your moveset just to include these basic attacks. Then there's the question of what would constitute a "basic attack".

No, overall I think your very limited endurance idea just makes Pok?mon weaker.



My suggestion would be to have a large mana pool, and have moves take different amounts of mana from it. That's all. No regeneration, no basic moves. The interesting part of this would be in deciding how much mana to take - I think the base amount of mana consumed by a move should be multiplied by a factor that derives from that move's effectiveness against the user. For example, a Charmander using Scratch has a multiplier of 1x, but a Charmander using Dig has a multiplier of 2x (because it's trying to use a move it is weak to). The multiplier is a minimum of 1x, and STAB moves are automatically 1x regardless of effectivenesses. I'm not sure whether resistances to the used move (e.g. a Lickitung's Lick) would also increase the multiplier, or keep it at 1x.

The exact numbers can be figured out later, but the mana pool's size should be about 1.5x the product of a single move's classic PP and its base mana cost (i.e. you could use Dragon Rage 15 times before emptying it from full - its PP is 10). A move's base mana cost can likely also depend on its classic PP, as Ernston describes. In practice, a Pok?mon needs to be healed more frequently as it can't use as many moves without running out of mana, and Ethers become more popular, but I don't think it drastically changes much as you can still squeeze in a fair number of battles between stops.

Mana pools solve a couple of oddities in the games, such as: "My Pok?mon can't use Tackle any more, better start using Hyper Beam." Having too small a mana pool results in the oddity: "How did my Pok?mon spontaneously learn a really powerful move it can barely use once?"

 

[FL]

I seen this idea several times (and even I suggested to someone in last week). this is a interesting concept and I like things than make the games more unique.

As Maruno said, this solve the problem: "My Pok?mon can't use Tackle any more, better start using Hyper Beam.". I approves the "wait" command and/or regeneration.

I suggest the costs:

old - new

40 - 4
35 - 5
30 - 6
25 - 7
20 - 8
15 - 12
10 - 16
5 - 32

And the bar with around 300 PP. The "wait" command recovers something like 50 PPs. If you use regeneration, recover something around 5 by turn and use a bar with around 200/225 PPs.

If you like more exact/bigger numbers, use a 999 bar and multiply everything by around 3 (333 bar)/4 (250 bar)/5 (200 bar).

 

[Lord Varion]

Naah.

Don't fix what ain't broken.

 

[Matsjo]

Response x3

I came up with this idea once, as a stat known as "Endurance".

https://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8593114&postcount=4

I has a proper look at your suggestion, and it's actually pretty good and comprehensive! But I'm really looking for a singular 'stamina' stat that simulates the Pok?mon becoming more tired as the battle drags on. Adding in damage to PP or PP damaging HP outside of specific moves and Abilities (such as Pressure) takes it too far for me. Also, having the PPgauge visible and thus accountable is important for gameplay methinks. I definitely like the item suggestions.

My upcoming fangame Pokemon Purple will implement a system similar to Final Fantasy's ATB system. A "sync" meter will continually fill up during the course of battle, and different actions will require different amounts of "sync" to be able to execute. The player will be able to execute an action at any time, as long as they've got enough sync.

<snip>

For instance, an attack like Tackle might only use 20 or 30% sync, but a crazy powerful move like Hyper Beam might use 150% or more.

This is most of what I mean (as far as I can tell), how does it work out, do battles last longer? What if a Pok?mon doesn't have enough sync left for a move, they presumably just wait until they have enough again? I was assuming the present turn-based combat system would remain intact in a game seeing as working in real-time makes snap decisions all the more important and forces players to respond immediately (in theoretical PvP matches at least). I'll think on it more and have a look at Purple as well. Thank you.

<snip for brevity>

In other games with a mana or stamina bar, there's usually one or two basic attacks you can always use, which don't cost anything. These would be moves like Tackle or Scratch. You haven't mentioned anything like this. The problem is, if you're sticking to a 4-move limit, you're going to end up sacrificing some of your moveset just to include these basic attacks. Then there's the question of what would constitute a "basic attack".

No, overall I think your very limited endurance idea just makes Pok?mon weaker.

My suggestion would be to have a large mana pool, and have moves take different amounts of mana from it. That's all. No regeneration, no basic moves. <snip for brevity>

Mana pools solve a couple of oddities in the games, such as: "My Pok?mon can't use Tackle any more, better start using Hyper Beam." Having too small a mana pool results in the oddity: "How did my Pok?mon spontaneously learn a really powerful move it can barely use once?"

I understand your critique, but I actually wonder if players would in fact start preferring medium-powered moves! Having that powerful move can still knock out your foe faster than the other way around, giving the player a serious leg-up. But, you'd have to be way more careful of just firing off Overheats or Close Combats; because a clever switch into a wall can derail that offensive as well.

With my suggestion Pok?mon can become more tired,, needing to rest up before using very strong moves again. With a mana pool, the pool just runs out and, well, your Pok?mon is done, there is no real transition. I really think a regeneration element needs to be present to turn it into a matter of resource management.

I do concur somewhat with your objection regarding move pool, seeing as it's harder for a Pok?mon to carry both a high-power and medium-power attack move for varying circumstances. I reckon it would have to be tested out how it feels--because more dedicated Pokes seems reasonable as well--but it might turn out that 4 slots are too little for this to retain flexibility. Hell, you might even need to rethink moves altogether, and implement a power investment mechanic into moves: "Special Fire move: Scorching, Medium power, Maximum power" with different Power costs. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Looking forward to your replies,
Matthias

 

[Dragonite Ernston]

My suggestion would be to have a large mana pool, and have moves take different amounts of mana from it. That's all. No regeneration, no basic moves.

In my system, regeneration happens when you're not in the battle. If you wanted to emulate the whole "PP doesn't regenerate either" thing, you could also have no regeneration, but you'd need a lot larger of a mana pool.

The interesting part of this would be in deciding how much mana to take - I think the base amount of mana consumed by a move should be multiplied by a factor that derives from that move's effectiveness against the user. For example, a Charmander using Scratch has a multiplier of 1x, but a Charmander using Dig has a multiplier of 2x (because it's trying to use a move it is weak to). The multiplier is a minimum of 1x, and STAB moves are automatically 1x regardless of effectivenesses. I'm not sure whether resistances to the used move (e.g. a Lickitung's Lick) would also increase the multiplier, or keep it at 1x.

I think they should keep it at 1x. And taking 2x for a strongly typed attack is a bit much, in my opinion. 1.5x max if not just not affecting it altogether.

The exact numbers can be figured out later, but the mana pool's size should be about 1.5x the product of a single move's classic PP and its base mana cost (i.e. you could use Dragon Rage 15 times before emptying it from full - its PP is 10).

1.5x is pretty low for no regeneration. You could hardly go through the Elite Four like that, for example. 1.5x with regeneration might be a bit more reasonable; otherwise, try and stick with something higher like 2.5x or 3x.

A move's base mana cost can likely also depend on its classic PP, as Ernston describes. In practice, a Pokémon needs to be healed more frequently as it can't use as many moves without running out of mana, and Ethers become more popular, but I don't think it drastically changes much as you can still squeeze in a fair number of battles between stops.

What's a bit annoying is that you can't buy Ethers (although you really should be able to).

Mana pools solve a couple of oddities in the games, such as: "My Pokémon can't use Tackle any more, better start using Hyper Beam." Having too small a mana pool results in the oddity: "How did my Pokémon spontaneously learn a really powerful move it can barely use once?"

It also results in having to heal unreasonably often. Meanwhile, having too large a mana pool (like my 2x or 3x above) allows the player to use the same attack, like, 40 or 50 times, and I think the middle ground gives us both problems. So it's more "which one do we want happening", or "are there alternate methods of dealing with the incompatibility and trying to encourage players to use a variety of moves rather than just one of them too much"?

The basic premise of PP and endurance is, as somebody mentioned in the thread that I posted, "the more you use a move, the less able you should be to use that move", and that this should be true for individual moves as well as the total moves in general. So what somebody suggested is that during every battle, each move has a "usage counter". So the more a move has been used, the more endurance gets drained each move.

I has a proper look at your suggestion, and it's actually pretty good and comprehensive! But I'm really looking for a singular 'stamina' stat that simulates the Pokémon becoming more tired as the battle drags on. Adding in damage to PP or PP damaging HP outside of specific moves and Abilities (such as Pressure) takes it too far for me. Also, having the PPgauge visible and thus accountable is important for gameplay methinks. I definitely like the item suggestions.

The PP damaging HP thing was simply because taking damage also makes a Pokémon more "tired". And my suggestions don't scale that well, but again, they'd be tested and reassigned - the basic concept is what we're aiming at by talking here.

 

[Maruno]

In my system, regeneration happens when you're not in the battle. If you wanted to emulate the whole "PP doesn't regenerate either" thing, you could also have no regeneration, but you'd need a lot larger of a mana pool.

I was basing my idea on the fact that the vast majority of games which feature any kind of mana bar don't have regenerating mana. There's no difference between mana and HP in that aspect, I think; if one's going to regenerate, why not the other? It's simplest not to bother with regeneration.

I think they should keep it at 1x. And taking 2x for a strongly typed attack is a bit much, in my opinion. 1.5x max if not just not affecting it altogether.

1.5x is pretty low for no regeneration. You could hardly go through the Elite Four like that, for example. 1.5x with regeneration might be a bit more reasonable; otherwise, try and stick with something higher like 2.5x or 3x.

They're just random numbers I mentioned as a starting point. The 1.5x mana bar size came from the thinking you also mentioned, which is that a Pokémon shouldn't be able to use a move (much) more than they could classically. It's a balance between having enough mana to work with, and not letting really powerful moves be spammed too much. You can get to 1.6x the classic usage by using PP Max, so at least that much usage isn't unheard of. I thought 2x seemed a bit much, and 1x is literally 1/4 the classic allowance which is too small. I'm sure 1.5x will last you through most battles, and for those where it ends up drained, they're probably significant battles anway.

What's a bit annoying is that you can't buy Ethers (although you really should be able to).

I fail to see any reason why it is acceptable to make such a remarkable change to the battle system, and yet not tweak the Mart's inventory. Doing that alone will completely negate any objections you have to the smaller mana bar - it's no different to stocking up on Potions and spamming those when you need them.

I dislike the idea of mana regenerating, mainly because it feels too complicated for what it is. It can also lead to standing around for ages/running in circles just waiting for mana bars to refill before proceeding, which is daft. Freely available Ethers and Elixirs solve this absurdity. The "too complicated" feeling also applies to your "repeated use costs more mana" suggestion.

 

[Dragonite Ernston]

I fail to see any reason why it is acceptable to make such a remarkable change to the battle system, and yet not tweak the Mart's inventory. Doing that alone will completely negate any objections you have to the smaller mana bar - it's no different to stocking up on Potions and spamming those when you need them.

Not quite. The problem there is that you can get through battles without losing HP, but never without losing endurance points. Remember that endurance is not exactly like mana in that a Pokémon should be able to rest with time (for some game-mechanical definition of "time") and still recover their "energy".

Freely available Ethers and Elixirs solve this absurdity. The "too complicated" feeling also applies to your "repeated use costs more mana" suggestion.

I guess I'm just sacrificing simplicity for finer balance. I tend to do that sometimes.

They're just random numbers I mentioned as a starting point. The 1.5x mana bar size came from the thinking you also mentioned, which is that a Pokémon shouldn't be able to use a move (much) more than they could classically. It's a balance between having enough mana to work with, and not letting really powerful moves be spammed too much. You can get to 1.6x the classic usage by using PP Max, so at least that much usage isn't unheard of. I thought 2x seemed a bit much, and 1x is literally 1/4 the classic allowance which is too small. I'm sure 1.5x will last you through most battles, and for those where it ends up drained, they're probably significant battles anway.

I'm less concerned about trainer battles and more concerned about the long stretches of land where there are lots of grass; especially caves. I'm pretty sure you couldn't get through a Zubat-infested cave with only 1.5x.

 

[Yukari]

I don't really like this idea. what I would like if you could make it where you can get elixir at the pokemart

 

[udivision]

I don't really like this idea. what I would like if you could make it where you can get elixir at the pokemart

This is the real problem with Pokemon. Or maybe they should make a "Elixer" that can only be used outside of battle if they don't want people spamming Fire Blasts, and sell that.

 

[audinowho]

To answer the topic question, it's not "we", it's "you". Anyone can do whatever they want in a fangame, and very often (as is in the subjective world of art), there is no single correct approach when it's down to one mechanic.

I actually don't see this as very drastic a change... but then again, it might be because I and many mana bar-using RPG devs before me have already thought of it. It's definitely worth a shot. I don't think the whole "can't use weaker moves, time to use a stronger move" oddity is going to matter much to a player's enjoyment. Especially to a pokemon fangaming crowd that has been exposed to the old system as a standard.

It's true that having to wait for a refill of the attack bar makes a battle longer, but I don't see how that's a bad thing. If the developer wanted to make the experience of each battle more meaningful. On a regular Pokemon RPG, where turns come and go one after another, and quick wild battles are common, skipping turns over and over again like everyone fired off hyper beam will be tiring. But if you're aiming for something like in a fighting-style spinoff or the earlier-mentioned ATB system, the idea helps with balance and can make essentially any kind of move viable. Nuke 'em all at once, or death by a thousand cuts. You probably notice by this point that changing the mechanic alone (assuming a run-the-mill main series game) will warrant other changes. Elixirs are just the beginning.

 

[yaywalter]

This is the real problem with Pokemon. Or maybe they should make a "Elixer" that can only be used outside of battle if they don't want people spamming Fire Blasts, and sell that.

I like that idea. And maybe after each battle, the moves you used during the battle get recharged 1 PP.

 

[Dragonite Ernston]

This is the real problem with Pokemon.

I like to think we're not fixing things that may or may not be broken, but breaking them deliberately by changing one thing and then fixing them in a different way.