A Valiant Return [OU]

[Eos Aduro]

So I'm EosAduro, Im a member who left a while ago, but Im making my return! A lot has changed here, but I still see that we have some awesome raters still floating around! Also glad to see that Anti made mod! So here's the team.

Team at a Glance

Well the team is a stall team, centralizing on Bronzongs amazing lead skills, being both a wall and being effective in stopping other common leads, Heatproof helps with that. Zapdos is my main Scizor and Gyarados counter, as well as helping with pressure stall, Suicune is my bulky water/tank/phazer, and does the job incredibly well, also helps against Tyranitar, the dragons, and other common threats. Machamp is my status taker and hard hitting bulk. Dynamic Punch being his best friend, with payback there to hit those pesky Rotom forms. Tyranitar is my guy for taking some special hits, mainly coming in on Jolteon, Gengar, and other special hitters, and scaring them away with Crunch, or going for a DD. Possibly switching set for CB. And my final Poke is Gengar, TrickSpecs. My teams definite weakest link, I am probably going to switch him ou for Tentacruel or another specially minded Poke, possibly Blissey as well.

In Depth View of the Team​

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP/82 Atk/80 Def/92 SDef
Sassy nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Gyro Ball
- Hypnosis
- Stealth Rock
---
Bronzong, one of the most effective leads I've used in a long time. Do not undervalue the use of Heatproof, as a lead, Bronzong is rarely Earthquaked, which gives it an advantage over almost every common lead in the game. Metagross won't EQ it, it beats Azelf, Infernape, and Hearan usually, and hits Aerodactyl hard whenit pops up, as well as stopping Tyranitar cold. Stealth Rock is for obvious purposes, Hypnosis is amazing when it hits, and Gyro Ball is for Tyranitar and Azelf, Earthquake for Heatran and Infernape. Also, Heatproof Im not really debating its merits, so unless oyu give me at least 5 concrete reasons why its better for this exact team, I wont change it.

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/220 Def/36 Spd
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]
---
Classic bulky Zapdos, an amazing counter to Scizor and Gyarados, as well as putting some bulky waters and steels in there place. Thunderbolt for STAB and Gyarados, Suicune, Tentacruel, etc. Roost for healing and help with pressure stalling, Heat Wave for Scizor, Magnezone, metagross, Jirachi, Celebi, the list goes on. HP Grass for Swampert, Hippowdon, quick finishes for Tyranitar, etc.

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/100 Def/52 SAtk/104 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Roar
---
My definite favorite Poke on this team, CMCune! After a Calm Mind, she becomes a devastating foe against almost anything, being near impossible to OHKO, and with Roar she can get rid of anyone trying to set up on her with DD, SD, and such. Surf and Ice Beam for common coverage.

Machamp (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dynamicpunch
- Payback
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---
Yup, its the one everyone hates to see come up, Restalk Machamp! One of the most effective Pokemon in the metagame nowadays, with Dynamic punch to get rid of Blissey, confuse anything my team has trouble with, and get rid of Gengar and the Rotom forms. Resttalk for recovery and status taking. Also helps with Heatran.

Tyranitar (M) @ Babiri Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Punch
- Stone Edge
---
DDTar, always a good choice. He helps to handle a few of my teams worse nightmares, like opposing Zapdos, Cresselia, Celebi, and a few others. He's usually prepared to get going and take down a few guys. Babiri Berry to stop Scizor, Fire Punch to also stop Scizor, and SE and Crunch for coverage and STAB.

Gengar (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Trick
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
---
My teams biggest weakness, but can also be a big threat. After tricking Scarf onto a Blissey, Machamp, anything physical really, it gives him leave to start to hit everything possible. With Levitate he helps take Earthquakes for Bronzong if my opponent figures out its Heatproof. Fighting resist is always helpful, but I rarely have to use it, Zapdos can take everything except for Dynamic Punch from Machamp. Plausibly switching in Tentacruel to replace it. Helps to revenge kill Salamence, Heatran, and other threats.

Conclusion​

The team so far has been one of my better ones, but it has a few weaknesses. Its nothing to a particular Pokemon, although Vaporeon and other Suicune can cause me some grief. Lucario isnt usually a huge problem, but he has gotten at least 2 of my pokes down before, so I need a bit of help with that. Anything and everything is appreciated, so please speak your mind!

 

[Sebastien Loeb]

Bronzong lead I don't absolutely see it proper for the actual metagame that is full of lead with Taunt (and Heatproof has become easy to be predicting), a Lucario with Stealth Rock after a Swords Dance you ago very bad, also Bulky Gayra therefore I would give Choice Scarf to Gengar.

 

[Shen]

Sure about No Guard for Restalk Machamp? Wouldn't Guts for the power be more appropriate?

 

[Eos Aduro]

Bronzong lead I don't absolutely see it proper for the actual metagame that is full of lead with Taunt (and Heatproof has become easy to be predicting), a Lucario with Stealth Rock after a Swords Dance you ago very bad, also Bulky Gayra therefore I would give Choice Scarf to Gengar.

I am giving Gengar a Choice Scarf, if I even decide to keep him. And Heatproof is the superior ability if you can figure out when he knows you have Heatproof. Bronzong can't do squat to most of the metagame that uses Earthquake anyways, it's about Aerodactyl and Tyranitar. Using Gengar and Zapdos as ground buffers makes Heatproof a superior abilitity in the right hands.

And yes No Guard is a far better ability. While Sleep Talk may indeed boost Machamps attack with Guts, it is a better option to have Dynamic Punch for confusion and power. The other fighting moves that Machamp has to offer are Close Combat, Cross Chop, Brick Break, and Focus Punch. Keeping in mind that this set is supposed to be bulky, Close Combat is a terrible idea, losing defenses would be murder. Cross Chop's shaky accuracy with Guts is still a problem despite Sleep Talk boost, remember that there's only a 1/3 chance of using it, and with 80% accuracy, the chance of doing anything with it is increasingly slim. Brick Break doesn't have the power to be used on either set, Cross Chop is still a better option with Guts, with Dynamic Punch No Guard still being superior. And Focus Punch could work on an entirely different set, so No Guard Dynamic Punch is the most powerful option, even with Guts boost being in the background.

 

[Chaostorm]

I am giving Gengar a Choice Scarf, if I even decide to keep him. And Heatproof is the superior ability if you can figure out when he knows you have Heatproof. Bronzong can't do squat to most of the metagame that uses Earthquake anyways, it's about Aerodactyl and Tyranitar. Using Gengar and Zapdos as ground buffers makes Heatproof a superior abilitity in the right hands.

if you,re going to give Gengar Choice Scarf , then change its Nature to Modest , it will work like Scarf Chomp but in Special method

 

[wolf]

if you,re going to give Gengar Choice Scarf , then change its Nature to Modest , it will work like Scarf Chomp but in Special method

Oh, and then not be able to outspeed Naive/Jolly Mence after a DD? =\

| Salamence  | Nature       | Naive            |    25.2 |
| Salamence  | Nature       | Adamant          |    21.3 |

Naive has gained more usage than Adamant. =o Always use Timid if you are using it to revenge kill, and I think he wants to revenge kill with it.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Heatproof is awful.

1. Removing one weakness completely >> reducing another.
2. Heatran has a suca berry commonly when leading and can still 2hko with F-Blast. Relying on that 60% of Hypnosis is really not good.
3. If you EQ infernape, you activate Blaze which means it does 102% min to you over 2 turns with f-blast even with heatproof. Once again relying on that 60% of Hypnosis isnt really the best thing.
4. You are Mamo, Flygon and anything with earthslide weak aka Rhyperior without it. =/
5. "They wont eq me anyway" is bad logic (no offense to you personally, but everyone says it and its an ass reason). Any GOOD player will see you are taking reduced fire damage and will indeed EQ you.
6. Because i said so.
7. I will infract you.
8. ??
9. Why is taking reduced fire even important from Azelf ? Tar owns suicide Azelf and they often they cant even 2hko standard Levitate Zong anyway. =/
10. Hi and Welcome back lol

Defensive suicune is really bad at this point in the metagame. Its a severe set up fodder. Offensive cune is much better and can actually pose a threat. That and Zapdos is a horrific Gyarados counter as it gets OHKO'd by a DD LO Stone Edge and then proceeds to nail the rest of your team since you cant hit it.

Suicune @Leftovers
172 HP / 120 SP.ATT / 216 SPEED
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hydro pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden power Electric

This >> your current one. Since you can check Gyarados better.

Also how does one plan on breaking stall and what is your strategy in general ? "I hope i can sweep them and they dont have checks/counters to my pokes" doesnt work these days and it never has. You need a game plan to open up sweeps for your pokemon. Even if its simple game plan such as "Well i Pursuit Blissey/Latias/Snorlax etc and then my special sweepers benefit from this".


As for stall, Trick Specs takes out one pokemon and then the rest of your team is walled Skarm/Bliss/Hippow (standard defensive core of stall teams) badly. >.<


Anyways, this is also not a stall team, its more of a balanced one aka those ones that dont work anymore. Foe full out stall overwhelmes you since you lack offense and so does foe full out offense since you lack the walling and lack to support to stall things (aka Wish support, enty hazards etc). Full out stall or full out offensive (or bulky offense) are really the only the viable playing styles these days, no in between because it generally doesnt work, so you will firstly need to decide on a playing style and adapt your team to support this.

 

[Eos Aduro]

Heatproof is awful.

1. Removing one weakness completely >> reducing another.
2. Heatran has a suca berry commonly when leading and can still 2hko with F-Blast. Relying on that 60% of Hypnosis is really not good.
3. If you EQ infernape, you activate Blaze which means it does 102% min to you over 2 turns with f-blast even with heatproof. Once again relying on that 60% of Hypnosis isnt really the best thing.
4. You are Mamo, Flygon and anything with earthslide weak aka Rhyperior without it. =/
5. "They wont eq me anyway" is bad logic (no offense to you personally, but everyone says it and its an ass reason). Any GOOD player will see you are taking reduced fire damage and will indeed EQ you.
6. Because i said so.
7. I will infract you.
8. ??
9. Why is taking reduced fire even important from Azelf ? Tar owns suicide Azelf and they often they cant even 2hko standard Levitate Zong anyway. =/
10. Hi and Welcome back lol

Defensive suicune is really bad at this point in the metagame. Its a severe set up fodder. Offensive cune is much better and can actually pose a threat. That and Zapdos is a horrific Gyarados counter as it gets OHKO'd by a DD LO Stone Edge and then proceeds to nail the rest of your team since you cant hit it.

Suicune @Leftovers
172 HP / 120 SP.ATT / 216 SPEED
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hydro pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden power Electric

This >> your current one. Since you can check Gyarados better.

Also how does one plan on breaking stall and what is your strategy in general ? "I hope i can sweep them and they dont have checks/counters to my pokes" doesnt work these days and it never has. You need a game plan to open up sweeps for your pokemon. Even if its simple game plan such as "Well i Pursuit Blissey/Latias/Snorlax etc and then my special sweepers benefit from this".


As for stall, Trick Specs takes out one pokemon and then the rest of your team is walled Skarm/Bliss/Hippow (standard defensive core of stall teams) badly. >.<


Abyways, this is also not a stall team, its more of a balanced one aka those ones that dont work anymore. Foe full out stall overwhelmes you since you lack offense and so does foe full out offense since you lack the walling and lack to support to stall things (aka Wish support, enty hazards etc). Full out stall or full out offensive (or bulky offense) are really the only the viable playing styles these days, no in between because it generally doesnt work, so you will firstly need to decide on a playing style and adapt your team to support this.

Wow, shot down, I love it. Heatproof has worked amazingly well for me, and I know that even if I have more evidence Im still going to get shot down, so I'm keeping it, but Im no longer going to argue merits, that cool with everyone?

Offensive Suicune does look better, even though I do love phazing to death. Would you recommend Hydro Pump or Surf? On my current Surf works perfectly, I prefer the accuracy and the PP, so what benefits does Hydro Pumo have over it?

And I do want this team to be full on stall, but honestly this is my first attempt at stall. I've always used balanced teams, and I wanted to try something new. So for stall, I want to try Tentacruel over Gengar, to set up Toxic Spikes. But other than that I dont have any real ideas, anyone I really need to replace?

And thanks, its good to be back!

 

[Anti]

Wow, shot down, I love it. Heatproof has worked amazingly well for me, and I know that even if I have more evidence Im still going to get shot down, so I'm keeping it, but Im no longer going to argue merits, that cool with everyone?

Ugh stubbornly ignoring advice despite "evidence" (unless you'd care to explain why what he brought up doesn't matter in the context of your team) isn't really "cool" lol. I mean there's nothing anyone can really do, but despite working great and everything, you're instantly weak to every single threat D_A mentioned that beats Heatproof Zong but not Levitate Zong. I mean we'll drop it if you prove/make a good case that it's better for your team, there's really no reason to keep it when Levitate is superior in 90% of circumstances.

Offensive Suicune does look better, even though I do love phazing to death. Would you recommend Hydro Pump or Surf? On my current Surf works perfectly, I prefer the accuracy and the PP, so what benefits does Hydro Pumo have over it?

If you can handle low accuracy and PP, Hydro Pump always. If not, Surf. Of course, that's obvious, but both work so it's your call really.

And I do want this team to be full on stall, but honestly this is my first attempt at stall. I've always used balanced teams, and I wanted to try something new. So for stall, I want to try Tentacruel over Gengar, to set up Toxic Spikes. But other than that I dont have any real ideas, anyone I really need to replace?

Wait wait what? If this is going to be full stall you're going to have to make a lot of changes. ScarfGar is seriously one of the worst Pokemon to use on stall (and honestly in general). DDTar only works with an offensive team to support it, so even if you leave the team the way it is, there are better Pokemon for that job (like SDLuke, not like that fits on stall). Hippowdon is obviously the better SS starter for stall.

Stall is very difficult to pull off these days, so if you're going to attempt it, I don't recommend ObiStall...it's wiped out/worn down too easily (and same goes for carbon copies of it). Trying to wall everything typically doesn't work. Stuff like Tentacruel and Perish Song Celebi doesn't work anymore...especially Tentacruel. Thing gets absolutely murdered by like every sweeper known to man.

And thanks, its good to be back!

I'm sure you remember me lol.

 

[The Hero Without a Name]

Heatproof is awful.

1. Removing one weakness completely >> reducing another.
2. Heatran has a suca berry commonly when leading and can still 2hko with F-Blast. Relying on that 60% of Hypnosis is really not good.
3. If you EQ infernape, you activate Blaze which means it does 102% min to you over 2 turns with f-blast even with heatproof. Once again relying on that 60% of Hypnosis isnt really the best thing.
4. You are Mamo, Flygon and anything with earthslide weak aka Rhyperior without it. =/
5. "They wont eq me anyway" is bad logic (no offense to you personally, but everyone says it and its an ass reason). Any GOOD player will see you are taking reduced fire damage and will indeed EQ you.
6. Because i said so.
7. I will infract you.
8. ??
9. Why is taking reduced fire even important from Azelf ? Tar owns suicide Azelf and they often they cant even 2hko standard Levitate Zong anyway. =/
10. Hi and Welcome back lol

Defensive suicune is really bad at this point in the metagame. Its a severe set up fodder. Offensive cune is much better and can actually pose a threat. That and Zapdos is a horrific Gyarados counter as it gets OHKO'd by a DD LO Stone Edge and then proceeds to nail the rest of your team since you cant hit it.

Suicune @Leftovers
172 HP / 120 SP.ATT / 216 SPEED
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Hydro pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden power Electric

This >> your current one. Since you can check Gyarados better.

Also how does one plan on breaking stall and what is your strategy in general ? "I hope i can sweep them and they dont have checks/counters to my pokes" doesnt work these days and it never has. You need a game plan to open up sweeps for your pokemon. Even if its simple game plan such as "Well i Pursuit Blissey/Latias/Snorlax etc and then my special sweepers benefit from this".


As for stall, Trick Specs takes out one pokemon and then the rest of your team is walled Skarm/Bliss/Hippow (standard defensive core of stall teams) badly. >.<


Abyways, this is also not a stall team, its more of a balanced one aka those ones that dont work anymore. Foe full out stall overwhelmes you since you lack offense and so does foe full out offense since you lack the walling and lack to support to stall things (aka Wish support, enty hazards etc). Full out stall or full out offensive (or bulky offense) are really the only the viable playing styles these days, no in between because it generally doesnt work, so you will firstly need to decide on a playing style and adapt your team to support this.

To add on this... how does it feel to have your Zong revenge killed by Dugtrio?

 

[Eos Aduro]

Yeah I remember you Anti, glad to see you made mod!

And I think I'll go Surf, and if Im going full on stall, would replacing Bronzong with Swampert, Gengar with Blissey, and Tyranitar with Skarmory/Forretress work? Im pretty new to stall, but if I look at it piece by piece, Bronzong HAS been working despite all of the theory against it, but Swampert I think would still make a superior option. Blissey helps with stall, wish support would be great for the team. Skarmory I think fits the roll the best, setting up spikes and phazing would work. But this still leaves me with a pretty big lack of status, any advice on how to remedy that?

And I havent seen a Dugtrio in ages, so yeah, I never have experienced getting revenge killed by Dugtrio. But I'm almost certain that letting Suicune set up on it afterwards would suit me just fine.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Use Toxic Spikes and then one/two pokemon with Toxic for Fliers, that is generally the rule of thumb for stall.

Stall Check List.

Have something to change the weather(not required)?
Have ALL the entry Hazards ?
Have a PHazer/Hazer ?
Have a Rapid Spinner ?
Have a Rapid Spin blocker ?
Have something to stop last poke sweeps (e.g Encore/Taunt + Toxic/Perish Song)?
Have a status absorber(rest talker)or some way to deal with status (Heal bell/Aroma) ?
Have something to absorb T-Spikes ?
Have Wish support ?
Do you counter/deal with the majority of threats well ?

I made this a while ago and i use it as a basis when im making stall teams. It might come in useful for you. ;)

Luckily, most stuff can do than more than one job that fits on stall teams. Eg. Forry gets entry hazards and can spin.