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Atheist Alliance

Butterfree-Charizard said:
Atheism is saying this no chance of there being a god, where as agnostic leaves the possibility of there being a god, you can't really be both, because if you are then your just agnostic.

Agnosticism is basically saying that you can neither confirm or deny the existence of any deity.

Atheism is denying that there is any deity in existence.

I see what you mean though.
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No, you're completely wrong (though I don't blame you, people use "agnostic" incorrectly all the time). "Gnostic" and "Agnostic" refer only to knowledge, any sort of knowledge. "Gnostic" is "knowing", "Agnostic" is "unable to know". See here for a more in-depth explanation.
 
Butterfree-Charizard said:
Atheism is saying this no chance of there being a god, where as agnostic leaves the possibility of there being a god, you can't really be both, because if you are then your just agnostic.

Agnosticism is basically saying that you can neither confirm or deny the existence of any deity.

Atheism is denying that there is any deity in existence.

I see what you mean though.
Click to expand...

Atheist agnostic means that you do not personally believe in the existence of god(s), but you are willing to hear any supporting claims that they do exist. Theist agnostic means that you believe in the existence of god(s), but you are open to ideas that they do not exist. The point being: agnosticism isn't its own thing, per se.

Gnosticism (not Gnosticism; only capitalized as per grammar) is an idea that floats in between atheism and theism and only serves to describe either one.

With the stuff we're discussing in this thread, it's necessary to understand that we're effectively dealing with three (or more, if I deem necessary later on) different gradients. Since the first is least related to your post, I'll spoiler it.

Spoiler:

Atheist -- Theist
  • Atheists do not believe in the existence of god(s).
  • Theists believe in the existence of god(s).

Gnostic -- Agnostic
  • Gnostics are sure of their belief; not open to discussion.
  • Agnostics are unsure of their belief; open to evidence that proves / disproves.

One person may fall into any category of these three gradients (and almost never to a definitive location; people may fall in between some ideas).

Also, stealing this from the link HarrisonH posted, but I think it's definitely useful to be in this thread:

Spoiler:
 
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HarrisonH said:
No, you're completely wrong (though I don't blame you, people use "agnostic" incorrectly all the time). "Gnostic" and "Agnostic" refer only to knowledge, any sort of knowledge. "Gnostic" is "knowing", "Agnostic" is "unable to know". See here for a more in-depth explanation.
Click to expand...

there really isn't a difference between what you said and what I said. In terms of religious discussion


Gymnotide said:
Atheist agnostic means that you do not personally believe in the existence of god(s), but you are willing to hear any supporting claims that they do exist. Theist agnostic means that you believe in the existence of god(s), but you are open to ideas that they do not exist. The point being: agnosticism isn't its own thing, per se.

Gnosticism (not Gnosticism; only capitalized as per grammar) is an idea that floats in between atheism and theism and only serves to describe either one.

With the stuff we're discussing in this thread, it's necessary to understand that we're effectively dealing with three (or more, if I deem necessary later on) different gradients. Since the first is least related to your post, I'll spoiler it.

Spoiler:

Atheist -- Theist
  • Atheists do not believe in the existence of god(s).
  • Theists believe in the existence of god(s).

Gnostic -- Agnostic
  • Gnostics are sure of their belief; not open to discussion.
  • Agnostics are unsure of their belief; open to evidence that proves / disproves.

One person may fall into any category of these three gradients (and almost never to a definitive location; people may fall in between some ideas).

Also, stealing this from the link HarrisonH posted, but I think it's definitely useful to be in this thread:

Spoiler:
Click to expand...

Your over thinking it. on a basic level Theist = there is a god. Add the prefix "A" meaning "no". Thus they believe there is not god.

Gnostic = Know and A meaning no = Does not know. Agnostic and Atheist are no different things.

The point I was trying to make is that it is stupid not to think in depth and to just say yes there's a god, or no there's no god.

Words are also very much open to the interpretation of the reader as well. Your definition may not be the exact same as mine. Words are almost like poems. The writer had his own view and each person who reads it has there own view. Of course on a much smaller level.

Perhaps you miss understood me because it seems we are arguing the same point.
 
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You're not arguing the same point at all, and you're not understanding what either of us said.

Agnostic - Claims we're unable to know. Related to anything, not only belief in gods.
Gnostic - Claims we're able to know. Related to anything, not only belief in gods.

Agnostic atheist - We can't know for sure whether or not there's a god, but I don't believe in one.
Gnostic atheist - I know there is no god.

Agnostic theist - We can't know for sure whether or not there's a god, but I believe in one.
Gnostic theist - I know there is a god.

So, are you an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist? You can't be simply "agnostic", because that has nothing at all to do with your belief in gods.
 
HarrisonH said:
You're not arguing the same point at all, and you're not understanding what either of us said.

Agnostic - Claims we're unable to know. Related to anything, not only belief in gods.
Gnostic - Claims we're able to know. Related to anything, not only belief in gods.

Agnostic atheist - We can't know for sure whether or not there's a god, but I don't believe in one.
Gnostic atheist - I know there is no god.

Agnostic theist - We can't know for sure whether or not there's a god, but I believe in one.
Gnostic theist - I know there is a god.

So, are you an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist? You can't be simply "agnostic", because that has nothing at all to do with your belief in gods.
Click to expand...

Ah okay I see what you mean now I misunderstood. I was using the term agnostic to mean Agnostic atheist and atheist as Gnostic atheist so basically I thought he was try to say that an Agnostic atheist and Gnostic atheist were the same thing.

I'll edit my first post
 
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Hello. I'd like to join this club, since I consider myself to be an agnostic atheist, for the simple reason that I don't believe in anything whose existence hasn't been proven.
 
So, I just returned from the Center for Inquiry Student Leadership Conference where I was a speaker, and all I can say is wow. It was absolutely amazing, the people were wonderful. If any of you ever have the chance to become involved in something like this, I encourage you to do it.

When the video of the panel that I was on is put up, I'll put a link here. It's me and three other student activists (who I feel have been through a lot more than I have) telling our stories.
 
JimJams said:
Oh hey, I'll join! :D

Does anyone here listen to any good atheism/skepticism podcasts or know of any good blogs?
Click to expand...

Blogs:
Pharyngula
The Friendly Atheist
/r/atheism (Not a blog though)
SkepChick
CFI's Freethinking

Podcasts:
CFI's Point of Inquiry
Freedom From Religion Foundation Radio
The Non Prophets


This is just a few. You can find so many more lists just by googling "Atheist Blogs" or "Atheist Podcasts".


If anyone is interested in seeing my pictures from the CFI Conference, check out here.
 
I liked Gymnotide's post above, but then I read this:

Words are also very much open to the interpretation of the reader as well. Your definition may not be the exact same as mine. Words are almost like poems. The writer had his own view and each person who reads it has there own view. Of course on a much smaller level.
Click to expand...

And immediately found myself agreeing to it. Words are words, the only meaning they have are the ones we attribute to them. So I dont think there's no need to get so gung-ho about "labels". Most of the above atheist vs. agnostic vs. gnostic vs. so on debate was, I believe, semantic indulgence.
 
Hassan_Abdillah said:
I liked Gymnotide's post above, but then I read this:

And immediately found myself agreeing to it. Words are words, the only meaning they have are the ones we attribute to them. So I dont think there's no need to get so gung-ho about "labels". Most of the above atheist vs. agnostic vs. gnostic vs. so on debate was, I believe, semantic indulgence.
Click to expand...

Agreed. However, there also must be some sort of arbitration about bending dictionary definitions based on societal misconceptions. It's one thing to interpret a phrase differently, but another thing to interpret a word differently; phrases are multifaceted and indeed act like poems, but words are something less malleable (but not always strict). I also agree that the discussion is based heavily on semantics, however, it's the semantic aspect that really matters... Hence, semantic. I will have no qualms with someone who says "I am atheist, and therefore don't follow a religion" but I will point out that they are technically incorrect.

The fact of the matter is that the term "atheist" has evolved such that it's effectively conglomerated with "irreligious," "secular," "antireligious," and whatnot. However, my goal (though it seems on the surface level to simply be overly pretentious) is to spread an understanding of the subtle differences between these terms. I feel that it's completely necessary to fiddle with semantics in this sense because what is addressed as "atheism" is often a multitude of things (few of which are properly labeled), leaving little room for specificity, as well as creating a misunderstanding of the topic itself. In this thread, grounding an argument without the proper terminology is inefficient--if you just say "atheism," but you mean "antireligious," how can we tell that you didn't mean "irreligious"?
 
Do not bash other Religions
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By saying other Religions, you're making the implication that Atheism is a Religion when Atheism is the default position at birth, a lack of belief in a God. You might want to change this to 'Do not bash on Theism.' Anyway, time to fill out some of this long winded form. (Not filling it all out because I'm lazy.)

Same-sex Marriage: I do not see an issue with same sex marriage because I cannot think of a single negative implication that Homosexuality or same sex marriage has on my every day life and I believe that two people of the same gender can have an equally meaningful relationship to two people of opposite genders - reproducing isn't that big of an issue because there are plenty of needy children which are up for adoption who will otherwise have miserable lives, so they might as well be adopted. (Too bad that a lot of governments won't allow children to be adopted by same sex couples.)

Abortion: I believe that Abortion is perfectly acceptable as long as the pregnancy hasn't exceeded the period of around twenty-four weeks, at which point the fetus is capable of living independently from the mother and is also capable of pain because the nerves are fully developed and linked. I think that a woman should be entitled to have an Abortion, especially if the child is threatening her well being or if she was a victim of rape, I won't touch on this too much because I'll end up with a huge wall of text.

Beliefs: I never formed much of an opinion on Religion as a child. I did attend a Catholic Primary School where Religion was forced down my throat; I took part in the lessons, but didn't think much about it. When I went into High School I stumbled across Atheism and then I started to reconsider everything that I was taught. (Funnily enough, it was a Catholic High School.) I looked on my brothers computer at some Atheist sites and the more I thought about it; the more it made sense. Religion simply did not reach my burden of proof, and thus I eventually became an Agnostic. I looked at other beliefs and spins on Christianity, but none of them seemed to have any substantial evidence. (Heck, I even looked at Islam, but I found myself disgusted with how they were so sexist.)

I remember a few weeks after becoming an Agnostic I asked my teacher in Religious Education why it was called Religious Education if she only talked about Christianity and only made us read the Bible. She said it was because Christanity was the one true Religion (obviously) and I told her that I didn't believe in an Omnipresent, Omnipotent being that can create everything and come into existence from nothing and ever since that day, she hated me and in class and would force me to answer lots of the questions on the blackboard while everybody else drew their favorite fictional character nailed to some sticks. I was glad when I got kicked out of that High School became I moved onto a much better School which talked about a lot of different Religions and encouraged independent thought. Heck, we visited different sites of worship and everything. T'was pro.

After Death: I'm not going to claim that I have all of the answers because I don't. Who knows what happens after death? I'm not going to spend my entire life worrying about how a God will punish me with Eternal Hellfire for not believing in him. I could feign being a Christian, but if God was all knowing and did exist he'd know that I didn't believe in him and I'd end up in hell anyway. Also, if I became a Christian, I could be completely off with my beliefs. For all I know, Islam could be right. It's a guessing game - a Religious lottery with Eternal Bliss for the winners and Eternal Hellfire for the losers, I'd rather not take part.

Aliens: Of course, there is the possibility that Aliens exist, with the Universe being so vast and it would be very pretentious to think that we're on the only planet which contains life, however what's to say that these Aliens are smarter than we are? Even if there is other life somewhere in the Universe, chances are that we won't come into contact with it for a long time; for all we know there could be another planet which has very basic life forms on it, or a planet which contains beings of extreme complexity. Basically, I believe in the possibility and probability of Aliens, but I am not going to say that I know they exist because I don't.

Family & Friends: My mother and one of my friends knows that I am an Atheist. Funnily enough, the friend who knows is a Theist and we often talk about different Religions and get along fine. I don't talk about my beliefs (or lack of) much, but I'm not ashamed of it.
 
Ah, Kozoi, that first school teacher sounds like a rather acrid person. I'm glad that you were able to get out of that x_x
 
+1 freethinking rationalist

Spoiler:
 
I do get ashamed of my beliefs easily, am vulnerable to group mentality, and don't like to talk about them. However, this is what I actually feel.

I believe the following to be, if not the absolute truth, almost certainly true: God, as almost any mainstream religion knows him, does not exist. Meditation, yoga, and spiritual activities can be useful to the soul. Jesus had great intentions, but was not, and is not, a god. Homosexuality is not wrong, and everyone has slight homosexual, as well as heterosexual, thoughts. Abortion is evil, but is acceptable in dire circumstances. All life is valuable, even those of enemies. Being a missionary is not an honorable profession. I do not know what happens after you die, but it probably does not resemble what Christianity teaches.

My family was Unitarian but I decided as a child to become an atheist. Even if I believed in the principles of Christianity, organized religion is not for me, so I wouldn't join a church voluntarily. If I ever have children, I will not raise them under any specific doctrine, atheism included, but I will allow them to choose whatever is right for them.
 
What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
I believe that people should choose to do whatever they want in those senario's.... If one man is in love with another, so be it.... The human race isb't perfect so why should people go around trying to believe so....

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
They are because they are.... I dont know what happens in my head and to tell you the truth, I dont care.... I live my live how I see fit.... I know doing thing may result in harsh penalties, so I dont do them and curse the people quietly....

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
I believe there must be some sort of life.... It may not be humen, nor even on this planet, but we can't just dissapear from existance....

Do you believe in aliens?
Yes I do.... I'm not a fanatic but there has to be other life forms in the universe.... They may not be as complex as humans, or even visable.... They could be as small as a grain of sand, or as big as a large tree, but their out there somewhere.... Scientists have even proven that there is a life form on earth that dosn'e need Oxygen to live.... That could easily mean the on planets without an atmosphere, even those creatures could live....

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
Not exactly.... They think I'm not really into anything, they dont know I'm Athiest.... Why not is in the last question....

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
I know he would't be some giant human in the sky.... He'll probably be someone on earth.... But even if there were a God, no one man could be trusted with that much power.... Human or not, his not perfect....

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
All of my family are devote christians.... Most of them go to church avery week, while my close reletives go nearly avery day.... Its really hard living in a family like that, when everything you learn about science and Earth are the exact opposite of what they tell you....
 
o: This club still exists?! I should update the member list! Geez.

Atheist Fun Fact: Atheists are the least trusted minorities in the United States, even under homosexuals!

And now for your daily dose of Atheist propaganda! :D

Scumbag God More Scumbag God! MORE!

Spoiler:



 
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Irony God is one of my favorite memes, but also a pretty guilty pleasure... Kind of like Insanity Wolf. Pretty disrespectful heh.
 
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