Banned/Cheap Moves and Pokemon?

[sanjay120]

You act like you don't know there's a random number generated in each calculation. Oh look, my Snorlax has a 25% chance of surviving that Cross Chop. I hope it does.

Electivire used Cross Chop! It's super effective!
Snorlax used Return!
Electivire fainted!

Same exact chance as Quick Claw. Seriously, everything in Pokemon is random one way or another.

EDIT: "Why don't you ban CHs and added move effects, or moves like Confuse Ray or Dynamicpunch? Ban Quick Claw and Scope Lens and Brightpowder and King's Rock too, and give every Pokemon Battle Armor as an alternate trait, and then we can change the name of the site to PokeRealm."

Forget who it's from, but god I love Smogon. So many cool people there.

 

[StealthDragon]

I had a match a hour ago with 1 guy had quick claw on metagross i could of won but everytime he would go first with quick claw..it was so annoying.

 

[Magius]

That's not luck, that's simple damage calculations. That's like saying math is all based on luck. Lol. Praying that it will survive won't change the formula magically.

its luck, ever heard of damage variance?

with every attack there is a random number that changes the damage a tid bit up or down.

hear is an example, a ground pokemon with 350 attack dose earthquake(100) to an Aggron(4xdmg) with capped hps(344) and def(504). if the random number is the lowest possible number(meaning lowest possible damage) it dose 307(89%) dmg leaving Aggron with 37 hps, if the random number is at its max(highest possible damage) it dose 361(100%) dmg leaving Aggron with 0 hps and causing it to faint! Now tell me how luck dosent play into this?

Look here!

 

[Anti]

It does. The scope lens raises the chance of critical hits, but last time I checked, critical hits happen anyways.DT is cheap though. A lot in pokemon relies on luck. Still, I think luck incresing items need to be powered down. In emerald, the move spark paralyzes me at least 80% of the time. So much for 30%! That's when luck gets out of control and ruins the game.

 

[Towlie]

Yea, the values do change a small bit, but that doesn't matter that much. If a CBDugtrio does 57%-65% of damage on a blissey with Earthquake, what's changing the 2hko? Nothing.

Critical hits are game breaking. A Snorlax has 6 Curses in and a Weavile comes in. Weavile Brick Breaks and Critical hits, killing Snorlax from the critical hit. The defense changes aren't even applied to critical hits.

As for quick claw, we have priority moves for that. Why should a pokemon's finishing hit be nullified because of luck?

 

[Seol]

So in that case, how come Flichhax Kiss isn't banned?

i.e. Togekiss w/ King's Rock
Serene Grace
Air Slash
Aura Sphere
Thunder Wave
Roost

Always hitting first after a Thunder Wave with something like an 80% chance of flinching the opponent, and an additional chance of paralysis.

(btw that's also a perfectly respectable anti-DT move on him too)

I mean - when it comes to hax items, sure, they increase the chance of a powerful effect. On the other hand, it means you can't use another item which has a guaranteed effect. If you choose to depower your guys for the chance of occasionally getting lucky, then isn't that a fair tradeoff?

 

[Azonic]

Kings Rock -Kiss is banned, because of Kings rock, but without it, it is completely fine, not banned.

 

[Seol]

But King's Rock isn't what makes the set hax - there's still a 60% chance of flinching the opponent.

My second point - by choosing to go the "hax" route, in the vast majority of situations you have an item that does nothing - isn't that a fair tradeoff? The game includes a number of luck-based effects, why are some allowed (Flinchhax Kiss, high-crit moves, Super Luck/Serene Grace) and some not? Why the split between "legal hax" and banned hax?

 

[Azonic]

OK, Serene Grace is hax but it still isn't banned, the only pokemon that can be banned are ubers

 

[Seol]

OK, Serene Grace is hax but it still isn't banned, the only pokemon that can be banned are ubers

If some moves are banned (eg Double Team) for being hax, why isn't Air Slash (probably haxer)? i.e. I'm not saying Kiss should be banned, but under that reasoning Flinchhax Kiss should be.

i.e. ban certain aspects of the moveset. Or, preferably, just make it another of those aspects of the game to be played around. It's not like it's difficult to build teams to handle evasion effects, there are more than enough decent guaranteed-hit moves now. Ubers are different - they are simply too powerful - but I don't see anything wrong with "hax".

 

[Azonic]

Air Slash with Serene Grace isn't banned. it is simply good strategy.

I suppose Smokescreen should be banned.

 

[Seol]

Air Slash with Serene Grace isn't banned. it is simply good strategy.

I suppose Smokescreen should be banned.

I know it isn't banned, but I don't understand why it's legal when the arguments that can be made against Double Team etc also apply to Serene Slash.

Not that I want it banned, personally I don't see any reason why any of these things should be banned.

 

[sanjay120]

No, there are two decent always-hit moves. Aerial Ace, maybe Vital Throw, and Pulse Bomb. Very few things learn Pulse Bomb and Vital Throw. And really, the only things that could use Aerial Ace effectively are CBJask, Weavile, and Hustle Delibird. CBJask isn't that common, Delibird sucks, and Weavile already has to make the decision of Pursuit vs. Ice Shard. Great, so you hit Double Team Skarmory with Aerial Ace. Good luck on killing it with that. The idea isn't to always hit the Pokemon, it's to cause damage which is hard when your options are either weak moves or barely hitting it at all. Anything that could use Shock Wave usually has a better option (Alakazam is already pressed for moveslots), and if it doesn't then it most likely sucks anyways.

I think Sereneslash doesn't need to be banned because the number of Pokemon with Inner Focus/Humble Heart (Lucario, Gallade, Crobat, Dragonite, etc) combined with the number of Pokemon that can't be paralyzed to get flinched in the first place (faster-than-Togekiss ground types, faster-than-Togekiss Volt Absorb/Motor Drive/Limber) combined with the number of Pokemon that cause Togekiss to switch out (Blissey, Electivire, Rhyperior, and a whole bunch of other stuff), not to mention the ones that get two or more of the above things, and Togekiss is the only thing that can use it (lol dunsparce), it's just not hat overpowered. Double Team, however, can be done by almost anything, each with their own counters that suddenly have to work Aerial Ace into their movesets.

 

[Magius]

The real reason people ban things that are supposible "hax items or movesets" is because it is something that has a slight chance to make there "Prefect strategy" a not so perfect strategy so they all yell hax item and then that threat is out of the picture!

sooner or later you'll hear people that use ninjask with sub/SD/BP yelling about how Rock blast is a hax move(if it hasent happen yet)

 

[Seol]

Re: Double Team - The reason guaranteed hit moves are considered weak is partly because the rules being applied stop them having any benefit over 100% hit moves - Shock Wave is strictly worse than Thunderbolt because the situations where it's better are banned. If there was a need for those moves, they'd be played, and the moves aren't useless outside of DT situations - a base power of 60 (which most such moves have, apart from Aura Sphere which is probably the best special-type Fighting move regardless and something Skarmory won't last long against) isn't massively impressive but it's not shocking either. Other solutions also exist - Haze and Machamp's ability to name two. Rapid Spin is a really weak attack that answers two regularly played moves, and Rapid Spinners are considered an important tool to have. Why is it unreasonable to also expect people to have (or at least consider) a Hazer or use a couple of move slots that are still valid, if not optimal, outside these situations?

Obviously, it would have a big effect on the metagame so to talk about current builds is kind of facetious.

I do acknowledge that Double Team, especially in conjunction with Baton Pass, is potentially massively powerful. I'm not arguing that point. I'm just saying it doesn't force the game to degenerate into hax - instead, it forces the metagame to run answers.

 

[Magius]

I got it! *ding*

there is no perfect team that can counter everything!
so people just ban the stuff that takes up to much team utility so they can focus on the more broader stuff!

 

[Kirby Fighter]

Why don't they ban all high critical hit moves and
super luck while they're at it?

 

[I Have Wonder Guard]

I'd rather have everything allowed.

Gives me more choices. It seems like everyone builds the same team. If the hax moves and items were allowed, people would develop better strategies and the games would be a little less predictable. Now everything seems to have Earthquake and Choice items.

But whatever. I'm still new here.

 

[Paranoia]

The real reason people ban things that are supposible "hax items or movesets" is because it is something that has a slight chance to make there "Prefect strategy" a not so perfect strategy so they all yell hax item and then that threat is out of the picture!

This guy speaks the truth, you guy's are just to scared to play anything go's.

I'd prefer to see a scope lens on weavile then a CB anyday.

 

[sims796]

I'm not too sure. Wwhen my Golem outspeed a Weavile 3 times in a row, I disconnected & took it off. I felt a little cheap.
Still, it was just luck, and dumb luck at that. Sereneflinch Togekiss can make a poke flinch 3 times in a row if lucky. Is that a hax too? No, I think not.