Celebi has now learned to not give that trampoline to Gyarados again [OU RMT]

[wolf]

Now Gyarados can use Bounce. :(

Introduction

Once my two week break started, that gave me time to start battling again, and maybe make a new team. The beginning of the break I was too lazy to make a team at the time, so I used panamaxis' team (found in Smogon's RMT Archive) for a while. After using the team some, I found Bounce Gyarados was one of the main reasons why it was a good team, and experiencing that battle against Dark_Azelf's Bounce Gyarados showed how awesome it can be. So, I decided to make a team with Gyarados, mainly a standard bulky offensive team (yeah, boring, shut up :<). I found Gyarados is a great bulky water, and sports Intimidate which makes it stand out upon the other Water-types, so this would make Gyarados fit in great with the Grass -> Fire -> Water thinger going. I also loved the synergy with Celebi, Heatran, and Gyarados, resisting all the types in the game. Each of them checks so much of the metagame today, this could mean a decent team for Wolfie. :D

[alink id=jirachi][/alink id][alink id=rotom-h][/alink id][alink id=gyarados][/alink id][alink id=heatran][/alink id][alink id=celebi][/alink id][alink id=metagross][/alink id]

The Team

[a id]metagross[/a id]

Item - Leftovers
Ability - Clear Body
Nature - Adamant [ + Atk / - SpA ]
EVs - 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Moveset

• Stealth Rock
• Meteor Mash
• Bullet Punch
• Explosion

Item / Nature / EVs - Leftovers heals Metagross' HP, and may help with KOs. Adamant Nature and max Attack let Metagross hit as hard as possible, 12 Speed EVs allow it to outrun opposing Metagross, and the rest is dumped into HP for best defensive potential. Occa Berry can be used alongside Earthquake to handle Infernape and Heatran, but for reasons stated below for Meteor Mash.

Moveset - Stealth Rock supports the team by weakening opposing Pokémon whenever they switch in, and may turn a 2HKO to an OHKO, etc. Meteor Mash is for a hard smashing STAB move, and the rare Attack boost can be handy, Bullet Punch is for bringing down Azelf and Aerodactyl, forcing them to only be able to set up Stealth Rock, Taunt, attack, or switch, and lastly Explosion is for denting the opponent greatly. Considered Earthquake over Meteor Mash for Infernape and Heatran, but Meteor Mash is too helpful in late game. Earthquake is usually only helpful when leading too.

Team Role - Metagross provides Stealth Rock support, which helps this team highly. Metagross also has solid resistances and immunities that are always helpful, and a great tank along with that.

[a id]celebi[/a id]

Item - Leftovers
Ability - Natural Cure
Nature - Bold [ + Def / - Atk ]
EVs - 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe
Moveset

• Calm Mind
• Grass Knot
• Recover
• Hidden Power [ Fire ]

Item / Nature / EVs - Leftovers heals Celebi some, and helps it stall out opponents sometimes. 32 Speed EVs allow Celebi to outrun Tyranitar and the like, and the rest is put into HP and Defense for the best Defense potential, same goes for Bold.

Moveset - Calm Mind gives Celebi a chance to sweep and also wall special attacks, Grass Knot is for a STAB option, Recover to help Celebi last, and Hidden Power [ Fire ] for Scizor and his Steel-type buddies. I have considered Leech Seed, but generally I like coverage more.

Team Role - Celebi checks tons of Pokemon in today's metagame it makes a solid place in this team. It starts the Grass -> Fire -> Water, that resists every type in the game. Celebi has done a lot for me lately, it takes physical attacks easily, and even special attacks have a somewhat hard time defeating Celebi after a Calm Mind.

[a id]heatran[/a id]

Item - Choice Scarf
Ability - Flash Fire
Nature - Naive [ + Spe / - SpD ]
EVs - 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe
Moveset

• Flamethrower
• Earth Power
• Hidden Power [ Ice ]
• Explosion

Item / Nature / EVs - Choice Scarf is the main reason of this set, it boosts Heatran's low Speed, and makes it one of the best revenge killers in the game. Naive Nature and 200 Speed EVs with Choice Scarf allow Heatran to outrun base 130's such as Jolteon, Aerodactyl, and Crobat. Extra Speed EVs doesn't benefit Heatran unless I want to outrun Choice Scarf Adamant Heracross, who is handled already by other Pokémon on the team. The rest is used to maximize Heatran's Special Attack, and then put into HP for survivability.

Moveset - Flamethrower is for a STAB move, and provides great coverage against the metagame's top threats, Earth Power handles Tyranitar, opposing Heatran, etc, Hidden Power [ Ice ] damages Salamence, Dragonite, Gliscor, and Flygon, and Explosion rounds it off by giving Heatran an option to dent Blissey. I have considered changing its slot to Will-O-Wisp though.

Team Role - Heatran helps a ton against offensive teams, by revenge killing huge amounts of sweepers. Its resistances and immunities help it last even longer, and with Wish support from Jirachi, and can continue to do what it does. Heatran also fills in the Grass -> Fire -> Water combination. Heatran is a key member of the team, it also adds a solid resistance for Dragon attacks which this team appreciates greatly. I actually had SubTran in ScarfTran's place and Rotom-H hold Choice Scarf, but I relied too much on Heatran to revenge kill threats, and Rotom-H cannot come in on certain sweepers due to different amount of resistances and weaknesses.

[a id]gyarados[/a id]

Item - Leftovers
Ability - Intimidate
Nature - Adamant [ + Atk / - SpA ]
EVs - 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Moveset

• Dragon Dance
• Waterfall
• Bounce
• Substitute

Item / Nature / EVs - Leftovers helps Gyarados sometimes get another Substitute, and the recovery is very useful. 184 Speed EVs allow Gyarados outrun base 115's like Gengar and Starmie after a Dragon Dance, then max out Attack, and lastly pour the rest into HP for defenses. Adamant adds more to Gyarados' damage output.

Moveset - Dragon Dance helps Gyarados sweep, Waterfall is for a STAB move, Bounce is for coverage and also gives Gyarados another STAB option, and Substitute is for status and stalling. Did I mention Water and Flying is only resisted by Empoleon and Lanturn outside of Ubers?

Team Role - Gyarados is the main sweeper of the team, and is a very good one too. Really hard to take down with Intimidate, Bounce, and Substitute factoring. He finishes the Grass -> Fire -> Water combo. Gyarados has won me so many battles, so it really acts as the late game sweeper and wall breaker of the team.

[a id]rotom-h[/a id]

Item - Choice Specs
Ability - Levitate
Nature - Timid [ + Spe / - Atk ]
EVs - 160 HP / 156 SpA / 192 Spe
Moveset

• Thunderbolt
• Overheat
• Hidden Power [ Fighting ]
• Trick

Item / Nature / EVs - Choice Specs provides a very helpful power boost that Rotom-H needs sometimes. Timid Nature with 192 Speed EVs allow Rotom-H outspeed Adamant Lucario, 156 Special Attack EVs let Rotom-H 2HKO Zapdos with Choice Specs, and the rest is put into HP for survivability.

Moveset - Thunderbolt for a STAB move, Overheat for coverage against Scizor, Metagross, Celebi, etc, Hidden Power [ Fighting ] is to OHKO / 2HKO Tyranitar and 2HKO Heatran, and finally Trick is to cripple Blissey, Snorlax, and their walling friends.

Team Role - Rotom-H provides insurance against Pokémon that pose a threat to Celebi, Heatran, and Gyarados. Its wide amount of resistances and immunities are never put to waste either. I have tried offensive Rotom-H without Choice Specs, but I found Choice Specs' power boost is needed a lot of the time (Trick is helpful too).

[a id]jirachi[/a id]

Item - Leftovers
Ability - Serene Grace
Nature - Impish [ + Def / - SpA ]
EVs - 240 HP / 160 Def / 76 SpD / 32 Spe
Moveset

• Wish
• U-turn
• Body Slam
• Iron Head

Item / Nature / EVs - Leftovers heals Jirachi even more, and can help with KOs. 240 HP EVs give Jirachi optimal Leftovers recovery, and also allowing Jirachi to take five consecutive Seismic Tosses. Impish Nature and 160 Defense EVs let Jirachi survive two Outrages from a once Dragon Danced Adamant Life Orb Salamence, and 32 Speed EVs allow Jirachi to outrun Tyranitar and Timid Magnezone. The rest is put into Special Defense.

Moveset - Wish lets my team last longer and also helps the Grass -> Fire -> Water keep running, U-turn helps Jirachi escape Magnezone, and is great for scouting, Body Slam is for paralyzing fast threats, and pairs well with Iron Head's flinch rate.

Team Role - Jirachi keeps the team running healthy, and adds extra insurance to Latias. Paralyze support is also very helpful in means of slowing down evil things like those BeachBoys (lol). Jirachi is probably the most replaceable Pokémon of the team.

Threat List

- Celebi / Rotom-H / Metagross and Jirachi can come in on Choice locked resisted moves / Heatran can revenge kill.

- Rotom-H / Jirachi / Metagross / Heatran can revenge kill / Celebi for non-Signal Beam users

- Rotom-H / Heatran can revenge kill

- Gyarados / Jirachi / Metagross / Celebi can set up on it / Rotom-H can Trick its Choice Specs

- Gyarados / Rotom-H / Heatran can revenge kill

- Gyarados / Rotom-H / Heatran / Celebi / Jirachi can wall

- Heatran / Rotom-H / Jirachi / Gyarados sometimes

- Rotom-H / Jirachi / Celebi can usually set up on

- Heatran can revenge kill / Jirachi can come in on Choice locked resisted moves, or movesets without Flamethrower / Fire Blast and Earthquake / Gyarados can set up on it after a Draco Meteor Special Attack drop

- Heatran / Jirachi / Celebi can usually set up on

- Rotom-H / Heatran can revenge kill

- Rotom-H / Jirachi / Heatran can revenge kill / Gyarados can usually set up on

- Celebi / Gyarados can set up on if it lacks Stone Edge or ThunderPunch, or is locked into something else / Heatran can revenge kill / Metagross and Jirachi can come in on resisted Choice locked moves

- Celebi / Heatran / Gyarados / Rotom-H / Jirachi can wall

- Metagross and Jirachi (might be able to survive a Hidden Power [ Fire ]) if it lacks Hidden Power [ Fire ] / Heatran can revenge kill

- Gyarados / Celebi / Heatran can revenge kill

- Celebi / Jirachi / Rotom-H

- Gyarados / Heatran / Rotom-H can come in on resisted Choice locked moves

- Gyarados / Rotom-H / Heatran can revenge kill

- Celebi / Gyarados / Heatran can revenge kill

- Heatran can revenge kill / Gyarados can sometimes set up on

- Rotom-H / Heatran / Celebi / Gyarados / Jirachi can sometimes wall

- Heatran can revenge kill / Jirachi / Metagross

- Celebi / Gyarados / Jirachi / Rotom-H

- Jirachi / Metagross / Heatran can revenge kill / Celebi can come in on resisted Choice locked moves

- Heatran / Rotom-H / Gyarados

- Gyarados / Celebi / Rotom-H / Heatran can revenge kill

- Heatran / Rotom-H

- Gyarados / Rotom-H / Heatran and Metagross can revenge kill

- Celebi / Heatran / Gyarados if it lacks ThunderPunch / Jirachi (maybe)

- Heatran / Rotom-H / Gyarados / Jirachi / Metagross

- Heatran / Rotom-H / Jirachi / Metagross / Celebi

- Gyarados, Celebi, Metagross, and Jirachi can come in on resisted Choice locked moves / Heatran and Rotom-H can revenge kill

/

/

/

/

- Jirachi / Heatran can revenge kill

- Jirachi / Metagross sometimes / Heatran can revenge kill

- Rotom-H / Gyarados / Heatran

- Rotom-H / Heatran / Gyarados

- Gyarados / Rotom-H / Metagross / Jirachi / Celebi / Heatran

- Metagross / Gyarados / Jirachi / Rotom-H can Trick its Choice Specs

- Jirachi / Rotom-H / Celebi sometimes / Heatran can revenge kill

- Jirachi / Rotom-H / Celebi sometimes / Gyarados sometimes

- Celebi / Gyarados / Jirachi can sometimes wall

- Rotom-H / Gyarados / Celebi / Jirachi can wall / Heatran can revenge kill

- Rotom-H / Jirachi / Heatran / Metagross

- Celebi / Metagross / Jirachi / Tyranitar / Rotom-H / Heatran can revenge kill

- Gyarados / Rotom-H / Jirachi / Metagross

- Rotom-H / Celebi / Jirachi

- Metagross / Jirachi / Gyarados / Heatran

- Rotom-H / Jirachi / Heatran can revenge kill

Note: This may not be completely accurate since I did this 3 AM. ~_~ So, yeah, I might have said something like Gyarados counters Jolteon great. :<

As you can see, Dragonite and Infernape can cause some problems. Both of them can be revenge killed though.


Well, that is the team, rate away~

 

[Pokedra]

This team doesn't have Arcanine =o!

Fire Blast >>> Flamethrower, that extra power does help and you may miss out on some KO's with Flamethrower. I honestly would go with 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe else you are always outspeed by other ScarfTran and that extra HP EV's don't do that much =[

I think some Def EV's on Metagross would help but it's up to you really =)

One thing that really hurts your team is DDMence after it gets one DD and most run Fire Blast which means Celebi can't take it down.

LO 24 SpAtk Naughty Mence w/ Fire Blast on 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi - 62.38% - 73.27%
LO 232 Atk Naught Mence w/ EQ on 240 HP / 160 Impish Jirachi - 92.77% - 109.23%
+1

I think you could throw TWave somewhere on Celebi so it can paralyze it and leave it easy prey for the rest of your team.

Apart from that, it looks pretty solid to me =)

 

[wolf]

This team doesn't have Arcanine =o!

I have stopped using Arcanine since winter. :o

Fire Blast >>> Flamethrower, that extra power does help and you may miss out on some KO's with Flamethrower.

I can consider it, but I usually like accuracy over power on revenge killers, because missing could mean the entire match.

I honestly would go with 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe else you are always outspeed by other ScarfTran and that extra HP EV's don't do that much =[

Staying in on other ScarfTran is really risky due to Speed tie. :x Outside of the Speed tie with ScarfTran, I only outrun Adamant Scarf Hera and once Dragon Danced Kingdra. Which both are handled by everything else. But, I guess I could pack some more to outrun those I guess.

I think some Def EV's on Metagross would help but it's up to you really =)

I will work on a spread for that. ;D

One thing that really hurts your team is DDMence after it gets one DD and most run Fire Blast which means Celebi can't take it down.

LO 24 SpAtk Naughty Mence w/ Fire Blast on 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi - 62.38% - 73.27%
LO 232 Atk Naught Mence w/ EQ on 240 HP / 160 Impish Jirachi - 92.77% - 109.23%
+1

I think you could throw TWave somewhere on Celebi so it can paralyze it and leave it easy prey for the rest of your team.

If I bring in Gyarados as it uses Dragon Dance, then that will force it to use Outrage. Heatran can then come in and revenge kill it, or Jirachi can paralyze it. :3 That is usually the way I handle DD Mence.

Apart from that, it looks pretty solid to me =)

:D

Thanks for the rate~

 

[Malevolent Mismagius]

TTar could be problematic here as your only defense is just revenge killing. A new spread on meta could ease that.

204 HP/80 ATK/224 DEF @ adamant

Forgoing the speed evs isn't that bad since opposing lead meta can't 2HKO with EQ (i think). EQ>>Explosion. meta is a great tank late game and it has saved me a few times. EQ gives it better coverage than explode.

fire blast>>flamethrower to get more kos that you would otherwise miss out on.

twave>>calm mind. I'm not too impressed with its pursuit weakness and cm doesn't really ease that. twave helps you cripple stuff coming in on it to pursuit it.

Sub bounce gyara has a HUGE sandstorm/SR problem that you need to be aware of.

 

[wolf]

TTar could be problematic here as your only defense is just revenge killing. A new spread on meta could ease that.

I guess DD Tar can cause problems (I'm surprised I have not seen one to notice that weakness :x).

204 HP/80 ATK/224 DEF @ adamant

I will test it.

Edit: After doing calculations, Jirachi (the current spread) takes only 2.02% less than your Metagross spread, from an Earthquake from +1 Tar. But, the extra insurance on Tar would be helpful I guess.

Forgoing the speed evs isn't that bad since opposing lead meta can't 2HKO with EQ (i think).

It still gives me the upper hand, and 12 EVs really shouldn't change anything (unless referring to your spread).

EQ>>Explosion. meta is a great tank late game and it has saved me a few times. EQ gives it better coverage than explode.

I will test it.

fire blast>>flamethrower to get more kos that you would otherwise miss out on.

Like I said with Pokedra, I like accuracy over power on revenge killers. But, what KOs does it miss out on? :o

twave>>calm mind. I'm not too impressed with its pursuit weakness and cm doesn't really ease that. twave helps you cripple stuff coming in on it to pursuit it.

Celebi outruns standard CB Scizor, and OHKOs with HP Fire. Celebi also outspeeds Tyranitar, and deals around ~75% with Grass Knot to max HP / max SpD Calm variants (although no one uses that :P), it OHKOs max HP / no SpD Adamant variants (both after a CM). If the Tar is specially defensive, it only manages to do around ~35% with a CB boosted Pursuit. I can consider it, but I wanted Celebi to be kind of offensive.

Sub bounce gyara has a HUGE sandstorm/SR problem that you need to be aware of.

Leftovers negates sandstorm damage (but it can't stall now), and yeah, Gyarados is weak to SR. :( Wish support helps with all this (and is one of the reasons why I have Jirachi).

Thanks for the rate and spotting that weakness. :D I will test those suggestions, and might change around some of the team to fix my DD Tar weakness. Although I am not weak to Babiri Berry variants because they fail to OHKO Jirachi, when it can paralyze it with Body Slam, but it is still risky.

 

[Greene1516]

This team looks pretty killer, but I have to ask, why do you have down Heat Form Rotom? 'Cause Rotom reverts to normal form when he enters Wi-Fi or the Union room.

 

[wolf]

This team looks pretty killer, but I have to ask, why do you have down Heat Form Rotom? 'Cause Rotom reverts to normal form when he enters Wi-Fi or the Union room.

Thanks. This is for Shoddy use only, my Wi-Fi lags too much and people complain about it (I would too :x).

 

[Dark Azelf]

This team looks pretty killer, but I have to ask, why do you have down Heat Form Rotom? 'Cause Rotom reverts to normal form when he enters Wi-Fi or the Union room.

Huh, ive seen it used on wifi, that and it should be assumed it is for shoddy.


Anyways, like many teams these days you are DDTar weak and DD Gyara weak. Celebi fails to wall Gyarados without Reflect and/or T-Wave. Not to mention Bounce increasing in usage. :/

Im also highly curious as to how you deal with Sub Tran, that thing is a real menace to your team. It walls your entire team and gets free switches in on everything bar like Gyarados who is outsped and crippled by Toxic/Will-o-Wisp.

Im a little tired so ill drop by later for a better rate prolly.

 

[wolf]

Huh, ive seen it used on wifi, that and it should be assumed it is for shoddy.

Action replay. ;P

Anyways, like many teams these days you are DDTar weak and DD Gyara weak. Celebi fails to wall Gyarados without Reflect and/or T-Wave. Not to mention Bounce increasing in usage. :/

Yeah, I forgot Celebi doesn't counter Gyara with Reflect or Thunder Wave. :(

Im also highly curious as to how you deal with Sub Tran, that thing is a real menace to your team.

Ummm... D8

Im a little tired so ill drop by later for a better rate prolly.

Isn't it around 5 AM where you are? :o

Yeah, tomorrow (or, later today since it is 12 already), I am might test out some replacements for Rotom-H and Jirachi if it doesn't break the synergy and helps on my current weaknesses.

Edit: Okay, I need some suggestions for replacements for Jirachi if I need to. I can Scarf it, and change Heatran to SubTran, but I honestly think Jirachi may need to be replaced.

Edit 2: What if Metagross is replaced with Swampert? And maybe run HP Electric on Heatran, then replace Explosion for Dragon Pulse?

 

[Malicious Metang]

I'm really not liking the uncomfortable weakness to the standard Choice Band and Dragon Dance Tyranitar. In your threat list, you mention Heatran and Celebi as counters and checks to it, however, I fail to see how they're even remotely safe options. Both are OHKOed by a boosted Tyranitar, and both fail to OHKO back. Gyarados has no business with the Dragon Dancer, and can't switch into the Choice Bander. So basically, you have Metagross and Jirachi as uneasy checks to this behemoth, another concern I have. Why both Metagross AND Jirachi? Who is benefitting from paralysis on this team? Drop Body Slam, go with Stealth Rock on Jirachi, and remove Lead Metagross for something to help with these weaknesses. Right now, Tyranitar, Latias, and even Mamoswine cause serious problems for you. All of which can set up on a good portion of your team, and all of which can either OHKO or 2HKO your team entirely. Call me crazy, but a Weavile might do you more good than you would expect. Let's take a look at a few things, shall we?

A Jolly Weavile has enough Speed to outrun your standard Dragon Dancing Tyranitar and OHKO it with Brick Break if you run Life Orb. It can also utilize Night Slash to screw up Latias who stay in to try and take a Pursuit. Ice Shard will revenge all kinds of Salamence bar Yache Berry versions (extremely rare, and with Stealth Rock and some residual damage, even Yache Berry won't be able to save it. Ice Shard / Brick Break / Night Slash is a given, but the last slot is up to you. You can either run Swords Dance, which will give Weavile awesome offensive stats of 881 Attack with a 383 Speed stat. A +2 Ice Shard even does enough damage to do 58% to a max HP / max Defense Hippowdon, pretty cool if you ask me. You can, however, run Pursuit to remove things such as Gengar and Latias which can stop your Gyarados sweep and threaten to wall Heatran. Up to you really.

If you do take my changes, you can lead with either Rotom-H or Jirachi. Both work fine.

 

[Syaoran]

I just love it when people say Fire Blast > Flamethrower because it "misses some important KOs" but they don't even tell us which. Stick with Flamethrower.

You have a really big TTar weak. Since Rotom is using specs, once locked on Overheat, TTar easily comes to ruin your day and Pursuit.. or even worse, DD. Nothing here can fully take on DDtar. Bullet Punch from Metagross doesn't really cut it, and since it's leading (and carrying Explosion), chances are you won't have it for very long. Then again I haven't really seen a Specs version in play so it could be better than what I'm thinking.

I like how you praise Bounce Gyara but you don't have a way to stop it if your opponent uses one as well. Again, the only thing "countering it" is Metagross using Explosion.

Mixape (Nasty Plot version or the one with T-punch) could also be problematic for you but I guess Heatran is enough to keep it in check.

Yanmega is also quite dangerous to your team, especially one with HP ground, so try to keep Rotom alive.

Blissey can spam T-wave, and I don't think Celebi is gonna beat it anytime soon with Grass Knot (Blissey is very lite).

I would suggest leading with Swampert instead, to solve a few of your problems (T-wave, TTar, Yanmega if it's leading).
My next suggestion is having T-bolt on Jirachi instead of Body Slam. It's a good check against your Gyara problem. I'm not entirely sure about it, but other changes would mean changing more than 1 pokemon, of a some sets to counter it properly.

 

[Greene1516]

Blissey can spam T-wave, and I don't think Celebi is gonna beat it anytime soon with Grass Knot (Blissey is very lite).

Just on this note, Celebi beats Blissey every time because of Leech Seed. Leech Seeding a Blissey gets you back a tonne of HP. That being said, this Celebi doesn't have Leech Seed, so I would suggest taking it.

 

[Syaoran]

Just on this note, Celebi beats Blissey every time because of Leech Seed. Leech Seeding a Blissey gets you back a tonne of HP. That being said, this Celebi doesn't have Leech Seed, so I would suggest taking it.

Really, what was the point posting that? This is a calm mind version, if you're gonna suggest Leech Seed then suggest the entire set.

 

[Malicious Metang]

I just love it when people say Fire Blast > Flamethrower because it "misses some important KOs" but they don't even tell us which. Stick with Flamethrower.

I know this has nothing to do with the thread...but I disagree entirely. Fire Blast, albeit risky, can pull you out of so many sticky situations. And no, I'm not talking out of my rear:

Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-A: 48.36%-57.24%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 61.18%-72.04%

Fire Blast solidifies the 2HKO, whereas Flamethrower fails to guarantee it. I realize both come close, however, if you are facing a more defensive Rotom-A (such as the ResTalker, which uses 136 Special Defense EVs), you'll see why Fire Blast is better.

Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Rotom-A: 42.43%-50.33%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 53.62%-63.49%

Fire Blast guarantees the 2HKO in all circumstances, whereas with Stealth Rock and Leftovers, Flamethrower 2HKOs less than 28% of the time. Rotom-A is, however, not the only example.

Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 28.10%-33.53%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 35.65%-41.99%

Hmm...Look here, Flamethrower never 2HKOs Salamence even with Stealth Rock, whereas Fire Blast does it 75.48% of the time. Hell, even with Naive, Flamethrower fails to 2HKO with rocks, while Fire Blast guarantees the 2HKO.

Flash Fire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Calm Cresselia: 36.49%-43.24%
Flash Fire Fire Blast vs. " ": 45.95%-54.28%

Basically, Fire Blast guarantees the 2HKO with rocks up, and even with Leftovers on Cresselia, it 2HKOs over 90% of the time, whereas Flamethrower falls flat on its butt and fails to accomplish anything.

Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 75.86%-89.66%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 95.40%-112.64%

Ugh yeah, this is the difference between getting OHKOed by Gengar's Focus Blast, and actually killing it =/ It kind of sucks to have your revenge killer...killed by something it's trying to revenge, now isn't it?

Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 224 SpD Zapdos: 35.25%-41.78%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 44.65%-52.74%

Basically, Flamethrower 2HKOs less than 4% of the time with rocks up and Leftovers factored in, whereas Fire Blast is guaranteed.

Just felt like posting some calcs, since obviously the people you were talking with didn't bother to back up their argument.

 

[StrickeN]

Fire Blast is very important.

You want to know what Flamethrower won't KO? It won't KO a Bronzong, Fire Blast will.
Fire Blast after a Flash Fire boost does about 40%+ to Standard Bulky Gyara, Flamethrower will do about 25%. Meaning after a Flash Fire with Rocks up, there isa chance to net a 2HKO with Heatran.

Fire Blast sports power. Complaining over the 85% accuracy is just ridiculous. We dont' run Rock Slide over Stone Edge do we?

 

[Syaoran]

I know this has nothing to do with the thread...but I disagree entirely. Fire Blast, albeit risky, can pull you out of so many sticky situations. And no, I'm not talking out of my rear:

Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-A: 48.36%-57.24%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 61.18%-72.04%

Fire Blast solidifies the 2HKO, whereas Flamethrower fails to guarantee it. I realize both come close, however, if you are facing a more defensive Rotom-A (such as the ResTalker, which uses 136 Special Defense EVs), you'll see why Fire Blast is better.

Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 136 SpD Rotom-A: 42.43%-50.33%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 53.62%-63.49%

Fire Blast guarantees the 2HKO in all circumstances, whereas with Stealth Rock and Leftovers, Flamethrower 2HKOs less than 28% of the time. Rotom-A is, however, not the only example.

Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 28.10%-33.53%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 35.65%-41.99%

Hmm...Look here, Flamethrower never 2HKOs Salamence even with Stealth Rock, whereas Fire Blast does it 75.48% of the time. Hell, even with Naive, Flamethrower fails to 2HKO with rocks, while Fire Blast guarantees the 2HKO.

Flash Fire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Calm Cresselia: 36.49%-43.24%
Flash Fire Fire Blast vs. " ": 45.95%-54.28%

Basically, Fire Blast guarantees the 2HKO with rocks up, and even with Leftovers on Cresselia, it 2HKOs over 90% of the time, whereas Flamethrower falls flat on its butt and fails to accomplish anything.

Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 75.86%-89.66%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 95.40%-112.64%

Ugh yeah, this is the difference between getting OHKOed by Gengar's Focus Blast, and actually killing it =/ It kind of sucks to have your revenge killer...killed by something it's trying to revenge, now isn't it?

Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 224 SpD Zapdos: 35.25%-41.78%
Fire Blast vs. " ": 44.65%-52.74%

Basically, Flamethrower 2HKOs less than 4% of the time with rocks up and Leftovers factored in, whereas Fire Blast is guaranteed.

Just felt like posting some calcs, since obviously the people you were talking with didn't bother to back up their argument.

It also kinda sucks losing to SCIZOR with Superpower when you miss and go AHH, DANG. 2 successive hits with Fire Blast also means 72.25% chance of hitting.
Now, who the hell switches Zapdos into Heatran? Not to mention I haven't seen any specially defensive Zapdos recently. lolpressure.
About Salamence, it becomes a 54.5343% chance of actually killing it, adding to the 75.48% you posted.
If you're switching into Shadow Ball Gengar, this Gengar is either locked on Shadow Ball or just lost 10% from LO. So it doesn't matter at all.
People still use Cresselia? lol
Rotom can't really do anything back, and if it's specially defensive, then it's not carrying much (if any) sp.atk EVs, so it's not doing much to Heatran.

I can see where you're coming from, but personally I like to minimize the effect of luck on my game. At least you are backing up what you say (unlike the guy above me).

 

[Malicious Metang]

It also kinda sucks losing to SCIZOR with Superpower when you miss and go AHH, DANG. 2 successive hits with Fire Blast also means 72.25% chance of hitting.

Scizor stays in on Heatran now?

Now, who the hell switches Zapdos into Heatran? Not to mention I haven't seen any specially defensive Zapdos recently. lolpressure.

You find it odd that Zapdos switches into Heatran yet perfectly normal when Scizor stays in on Heatran to Superpower? And yes, I have seen specially defensive Zapdos, they're rare but still present.

About Salamence, it becomes a 54.5343% chance of actually killing it, adding to the 75.48% you posted.

???

If you're switching into Shadow Ball Gengar, this Gengar is either locked on Shadow Ball or just lost 10% from LO. So it doesn't matter at all.

It could be a Substitute Gengar, which is very, very popular nowadays to bait and kill Scizor. Though I guess you do have a point there.

People still use Cresselia? lol

It's a mean Dual Screener =(

Rotom can't really do anything back, and if it's specially defensive, then it's not carrying much (if any) sp.atk EVs, so it's not doing much to Heatran.

I know that, but I've found it annoying when I get my Heatran paralysed because I'm unable to 2HKO it.

I can see where you're coming from, but personally I like to minimize the effect of luck on my game. At least you are backing up what you say (unlike the guy above me).

Personal preference, I just thought that providing some calcs would let people know it's good to know the advantages of both moves; higher accuracy or higher power.

This post is now over, thank you drive through.

 

[Syaoran]

This post is now over, thank you drive through.

Salamence --> 72.25% (Fire Blast hitting twice) x 75.48% (chances to KO with SR up) = 54.5343% of actually KOing it.

The Scizor comment was based on a true moment I had vs Archer's Scizor (I think it was a neccesary sacrifice on his part).

I have yet to see a Rotom that carries T-wave, lol.


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I'm not gonna spam this thread with more comments, so for the post under me: it's about the same percentange if you calculate 2 successive hits --> 100% - 85% x 85% = 27.75% iluvmath <3 ^.~

 

[Malicious Metang]

Never said it was because of Thunder Wave, but rather because of Discharge. Sure, 30% may seem miniscule, but then again, 15% is even more miniscule =)

 

[Greene1516]

Really, what was the point posting that? This is a calm mind version, if you're gonna suggest Leech Seed then suggest the entire set.

The point is I am suggesting to him to get Leech Seed on the Celebi somewhere. I leave the choice of what must be replaced up to the user's personal preference since the most important thing is that he ends up using something he likes and is comfortable with.