Charizard - Should it be Suspect ?

[Dark Azelf]

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Zard is an easy lure for bulky water types and Blissey, opening up Heatran, Infernape, Gyarados, <strong special sweeper> etc sweeps.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Charizard is VERY versatile, that is an understatement. It can go mix, specs, band, dd, sd or even the following sets which i believe fit the suspect requirements;


Recoil Drum Zard
Charizard@Salac Berry
4 Def / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
Trait : Blaze
~ Belly Drum
~ Double-Edge
~ Fire Punch
~ Earthquake / ThunderPunch

Drum Zard
Charizard@Salac Berry
4 Def / 252 Att / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
Trait : Blaze
~ Belly Drum
~ Substitute / Endure
~ Fire Punch
~ Earthquake / ThunderPunch

+6 ThunderPunch Vs Slowbro : 91.4% - 107.6%
+6 ThunderPunch Vs Suicune : 86.6% - 102%
+6 ThunderPunch Vs 0/0 Salamence : 96.7% - 114.2%
+6 Double-Edge Vs Physically Bulky Salamence : 106.1% - 124.9%
+6 Earthquake Vs Tyranitar : 192.4% - 226.4%
+6 Fire Punch Vs Skarmory : 100% Min
+6 Fire Punch Vs Gliscor : 82.2% - 96.9%
+6 Earthquake Vs Standard Regirock 105.5% - 124.7%
+6 Earthquake Vs Supporting Tank Rhyperior 77.3% - 91.2%

These are just a taster of some of the calculations vs defensive Pokemon and so called checks and counters.

It is safe to say nothing walls a +6 Zard. If you want more calcs, be my guest to request which ones you want. Dont forget, Charizard can set up on one of THE most common moves in the game, Earthquake.

STEALTH ROCK LOL!

The best way to get rid of Charizard, is to carry Stealth Rock and a Ghost-type to block Rapid Spin

Nullifies all positive evasion modifiers, both present and future, on the target. Foresight doesn't nullify the evasion increase of items or abilities. Foresight itself ignores all accuracy and evasion modifiers. Fighting- and Normal-type moves can hit Ghosts under the effect of Foresight.

Hitmontop and Blastoise can rapid spin this Stealth Rock away when ever they feel like it due to Foresight. This is potentually deadly and if you dont pack TWO ghost types you have a pretty good chance of getting swept. Packing 2 ghost types to block foresight spin is over centralization.

On Revenge killing.

Ninjask OU Speed Boost 61 90 45 50 50 160 456
Electrode UU Static / Soundproof 60 50 70 80 80 140 480
Aerodactyl OU Pressure / Rock Head 80 105 65 60 75 130 515
Crobat BL Inner Focus 85 90 80 70 80 130 535
Jolteon OU Volt Absorb 65 65 60 110 95 130 525
Swellow UU Guts 60 85 60 50 50 125 430
Weavile OU Pressure 70 120 65 45 85 125 510
Alakazam UU Synchronize / Inner Focus 55 50 45 135 85 120 490
Dugtrio UU Sand Veil / Arena Trap 35 80 50 50 70 120 405
Sceptile UU Overgrow 70 85 65 105 85 120 530
Ambipom UU Pickup / Technician 75 100 66 60 66 115 482
Azelf OU Levitate 75 125 70 125 70 115 580
Floatzel NU Swift Swim 85 105 55 85 50 115 495
Persian NU Limber / Technician 65 70 60 65 65 115 440
Raikou UU Pressure 90 85 75 115 100 115 580
Starmie OU Natural Cure / Illuminate 60 75 85 100 85 115 520
Purugly NU Own Tempo / Thick Fat 71 82 64 64 59 112 452
Espeon UU Synchronize 65 65 60 130 95 110 525
Froslass UU Snow Cloak 70 80 70 80 70 110 480
Gengar OU Levitate 60 65 60 130 75 110 500
Jumpluff NU Chlorophyll / Leaf Guard 75 55 70 55 85 110 450
Latias OU Levitate 80 80 90 110 130 110 600
Tauros NU Intimidate / Anger Point 75 100 95 40 70 110 490
Infernape OU Blaze 76 104 71 104 71 108 534
Lopunny NU Cute Charm / Klutz 65 76 84 54 96 105 480
Manectric NU Static / Lightningrod 70 75 60 105 60 105 475
Mismagius UU Levitate 60 60 60 105 105 105 495
Rapidash NU Flash Fire / Run Away 65 100 70 80 80 105 500
Scyther UU Swarm / Technician 70 110 80 55 80 105 500

These are the only pokemon with a scarf which outspeed Zard after a Belly Drum + Salac, aka most of them are bad and or/Pursuit bait or have some other stupid problem and are not very viable. Why should i have to pack something as useless as scarf rapidash ?

Priority.

Also note the only decent users of Aqua Jet are in the lower tiers, zard resists or isnt KO'd by any other priority move or they are easy to set up on i.e Sucker Punch. Not even Lucario guarantees a OHKO with LO ES at 50% health.


If Blissey and Salamence deserve a suspect test, i believe Charizard does too. Read; yes for Ubers.

Thankyou for reading. ^_^

 

[FreakyLocz14]

This is so WIN!
BellyZard destroys all.

 

[Malicious Metang]

I am in full agreement with the testing of Charizard, not only because it packs enormous versatility and power that rivals (or even exceeds) that of Salamence, but also because from extensive play of utilizing Charizard, I can fully attest to its effectiveness. Both of them have the same Speed, meaning that the revenge killing argument is somewhat similar to both, however, some would argue Salamence has a better STAB. While I agree with this, to an extent, one cannot deny that Charizard's access to Belly Drum makes it a FAR more dangerous opponent to face; while letting Salamence set up can lead to you losing perhaps 1 or 2 Pokemon, a Belly Zard will spell death for your whole team, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. Even if Charizard doesn't annihilate your entire team, it can punch enough holes in your defenses to let the most unsuspecting of sweepers, such as your common Heracross, to run rampart through your team. Now, let's not forget this is merely physical Charizard, whom most would expect. This prior knowledge lets the user of Charizard run mixed or Special sets to great success; able to surprisingly OHKO the physical walls that most would switch-in, such as Hippowdon, Swampert, and the likes of that. Now, most who are inexperienced with using Charizard will likely will bring up the common "solid" arguments as to why it is not broken. You know what I'm referring to; "Stealth Rock makes it unable to Belly Drum!", "Fire is a terrible STAB move in OU!", or even the ever so delicious "It can be revenged with priority!". All of these arguments can be applied to most Pokemon in similar situations. Heatran has terrible offensive STABs, yet it remains a very powerful offensive force, albeit being used for its typing more than anything else. Charizard has the coverage moves to get by common resists to Fire attacks; it's movepool is just as vast as Salamence, if not greater. Dragon Claw, Thunderpunch, Hidden Power Grass, etc...all are examples of moves that will allow Charizard to get by things that resist its main STAB, and while it may seem as if it will suffer 4 slot syndrome, a standard Belly Drum / Fire Punch / Earthquake / Return or Double Edge Charizard will be unable to be stopped by anything defensively in the OU metagame, bar extremely, extremely bulky Water types, which will be nearly killed in the process, thus allowing Charizard to break defenses of the opponent and "support" its teammates. Such instances are examples of why Charizard can fit the Support and even Offensive Characteristics.

But Metang, Stealth Rock hampers Charizard!

The biggest flaw in this argument is that it can be said for ANY Pokemon; regardless if they're weak to Stealth Rock or not. True, Charizard is hurt by it more than your average Pokemon who takes neutral or even 2x damage from it, however, one must realize that while it is very easy to set up Stealth Rock, it is also very easy to remove it via Rapid Spin, or even better; keep it off the field. Taunt from the likes of Gliscor, Aerodactyl, Electrode, Azelf, etc...will allow Charizard to never have to worry about Stealth Rock, and before people start "assuming" such situations are specialized, please realize Taunt is one of the most common moves on these Pokemon (I doubt I'd have to bring out usage statistics to back this, we all played Suicide Aerodactyl and Electrode, as well as Stallbreaker Gliscor. Rapid Spin is also another highly effective method of preventing Charizard from taking that nasty 50% upon switching in. Common users of this move, such as Forretress, Hitmontop, Starmie, Tentacruel, Donphan, and even Blastoise are excellent partners for Charizard, as they all can stop rocks from staying on the field. Before people begin saying that Ghost-types negate this plan, may I bring you to an excellent point made by Dark Azelf:

Hitmontop and Blastoise can rapid spin this Stealth Rock away when ever they feel like it due to Foresight. This is potentually deadly and if you dont pack TWO ghost types you have a pretty good chance of getting swept. Packing 2 ghost types to block foresight spin is over centralization.

Not only can some spinners, such as Hitmontop, Donphan, and Blastoise all utilize Foresight to ensure they spin away rocks on Ghosts, but they can also use offensive methods to kill the Ghosts. Life Orb Rapid Spin Starmie can 2HKO every common Spin Blocker with Hydro Pump, while outspeeding every single one of them as well. Choice Band or Offensive Donphan can 2HKO Dusknoir and Spiritomb with Earthquake as well as eliminate Mismagius, Gengar, and Rotom-A with Assurance. Basically, keeping Stealth Rock off the field when using Charizard may be a necessity, but it is definately not an impossibility.

 

[JOSHIKINZ_94]

i am also in favour of charizard being tested. i have never known most of these combinations charizard can pull off until now,and i had always thaught that it was an underused/boderline pokemon after reading serebii's pokemon of the week(so naive). but charizard has to be given fairplay,starting off in generation one hasnt done it any favours with all the new faster(and sometimes stronger) hitting fires out there(infernape considered one),and people consider it an over-shadowed fire type(which is certainly not the case).but all in all, it deserves a test.

 

[Anti]

Whether or not the satire works, your point has been made. Since we already have someone who has actually taken this seriously and there is literally no room for discussion on this at all besides to unnecessarily pile on, there is no reason to leave this open.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Locking this now, since it was a joke thread lol.

~Closed~

 

[BeachBoy]

Locking this now, since it was a joke thread lol.

~Closed~

NOT SO FAST.

Charizard used Iron Tail.
It's super effective!
Sudowoodo lost 46% of its health.
Blade's Sudowoodo fainted.
---
Blade switched in Manaphy (lvl 100 Manaphy).
Blade: fear the cuteness
Charizard used Dragon Rage.
Manaphy lost 11% of its health.
Manaphy used Bubble.
It's super effective!
Charizard lost 20% of its health.
---
Charizard used Secret Power.
Manaphy lost 14% of its health.
Manaphy used Supersonic.
Manaphy's attack missed!
---
Charizard used Secret Power.
A critical hit!
Manaphy lost 26% of its health.
Manaphy used Bubble.
It's super effective!
Charizard lost 18% of its health.
---
Charizard used Secret Power.
Manaphy is paralysed! It may be unable to move!
Manaphy lost 15% of its health.
Manaphy is paralysed! It can't move!
---

Clearly, by this snip of battle log, Charizard can counter other ubers with superb ease. Supersonic Bubble Manaphy? A thing of the past.

The staff have debated this new information and Charizard will receive a suspect test in February.

 

[Anti]

If only i were good...=[[[[[[[[[[[0000000000000<