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CONGRATS! US HEALTHCARE REFORM PASSES!

Is the individual mandate fair? (Please state your reasoning in the thread)

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 48.1%
  • No

    Votes: 14 51.9%

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .

HeidiMoose

[Insert User Title Here]
  • 264
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    15
    Years
    Sarah Palin sure isn't happy about this.

    But on a serious note (besides the fact that I utterly despise Sarah Palin with a passion), I honestly don't know much about the health care bill and therefor can not cast an opinion about it. I've had health insurance my entire life be it through my dad growing up and I have my own health care now at my job.. I do hope that this a good step forward for our country but I've heard enough negative things about the bill up to this point to be concerned as well.
     

    Sotto Voce

    woohoo!!
  • 120
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    14
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    I'm stunned. I didn't think it would actually pass.


    ^ Most important part of the bill if you ask me.

    I like that last one.

    Also:
    7. BANS LIFETIME LIMITS ON COVERAGE-- Prohibits health plans from placing lifetime caps on coverage. Effective 6 months after enactment.

    I'll add on later--still reading thru the summary.
     
  • 9,468
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    First off, I suggest you do a little research as to the validity of that claim, and look at the bigger picture of what was going on at the time. George Washington did not require every citizen to have a gun because he felt that the government would make more money off it. He required it because the country was at war with Britain at the time and most people living in the Colonies already owned firearms anyway for hunting. And even if they didn't, alot of them were provided for free and people often made their own firearms and even their own BULLETS. You can't make your own insurance. Not to mention, having guns didn't exactly bother anyone. A one-time payment of a few dollars for something that would protect you on a regular basis for your entire life back then is alot better than a 200 dollar a month payment for something that you might not ever use. I love all the misinformation that the media is feeding the public. It really just goes to show how far downhill this country's going.

    Anyway, I've already explained on my site why this is unconstitutional, and what is going to be happening in the future. You can take it as you will. But this situation won't magically go away just because some words are changed or because a few historical points are misconstrued to give someone a fleeting debate advantage. And this is the tip of the iceberg. It only gets worse from here. Alot worse.

    ."A lot better than something you will never use..."

    Wow that is one of the craziest things I've heard in a while. Because who cares about going to the doctor when I'm sick. Forget about good health choices and live your life to the fullest! >__>

    Sheesh, people keep on complaining about rising healthcare cost without realizing it's their own fault. Who the heck pays for your emergency room visit when you waltz down there because you've been in an accident? Our darn premiums go up because we ultimately pay for your visit. People think they are invincible when they are young but that is not the case. V___V

    Also, how does saying that somebody else did it justify someone doing it this time?

    Because people here cannot accept the fact that Health care access is a vital part of a persons ability to live.

    I've explained the reason why the individual mandate is there on another forum post I made but I guess I have to repeat it here:

    The individual mandate is there, in that, we need the healthier people to pay for the sicker people. That's how insurance "risk pool" works."(That's why putting everyone in a single system lowers cost. It spreads payment evenly to everyone)

    Otherwise, the insurance companies wouldn't even bother covering sicker people with lower premiums if there is no one there to balance the payment structure. Then this whole house of cards of a refom bill willfall down. :/
    And because NOBODY lieks dem "Socialized" medicine, (Or more accurately insurance) we get a reform bill that forces us to get what you guys love, Private "Free Market" insurance.

    Also:


    CONGRATS! US HEALTHCARE REFORM PASSES!
    The House of Representatives on Thursday gave final approval to the budget reconciliation bill containing a package of changes to the Democrats' sweeping health care overhaul. The bill, which Democratic leaders hailed as a landmark achievement, now goes to President Obama for his signature.
    "The American people have waited for this moment for a century," the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, said at a news conference. "This, of course, was a health bill. But it is also a jobs bill, an economic recovery bill, was a deficit-reduction bill, was an antidiscrimination bill. It was truly a bill of rights. And now it is the law of the land."


    In a fitting finale to the yearlong health care saga, the budget reconciliation measure that included the final changes was approved first by the Senate and then by the House on a tumultuous day at the Capitol, as lawmakers raced to complete their work ahead of a two-week recess.
    The final House vote was 220 to 207, and the Senate vote was 56 to 43, with the Republicans unanimously opposed in both chambers.
    The reconciliation bill makes numerous revisions to many of the central provisions in the measure adopted by the Senate on Dec. 24, including changes in the levels of subsidies that will help moderate-income Americans afford private insurance, as well as changes to the increase in the Medicare payroll tax that will take effect in 2013 and help pay for the legislation.
    The bill also delays the start of a new tax on high-cost employer-sponsored insurance policies to 2018 and raises the thresholds at which policies are hit by the tax, reflecting a deal struck by the White House and organized labor leaders. It also includes changes to close the gap in Medicare prescription drug coverage known as the doughnut hole, and to clarify a provision requiring insurers to allow adult children to remain on their parents' insurance policies until their 26th birthday.

    Many of the changes were intended to address the concerns of House Democrats, as well as to bridge differences between the original House and Senate bills and to incorporate additional provisions sought by Mr. Obama.
    The bill also included a broad restructuring of federal student loan programs, a centerpiece of Mr. Obama's education agenda.
    Well the entire Law is now in plce. Thank Goodness for the Student Loan Modification programs. :3
     
    Last edited:

    Trap-Eds

    Dig a hole, dig a hole........
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    bill summary: https://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000846-503544.html

    There really isn't one answer as to why a person is happy/disappointed. And it's hard to judge from this thread just from those who have posted here; some are clearly more vocal about it than others.

    Hmmmm...I think I understand now. Americans now have to buy health insurance or risk a fine in the future. I don't see a problem with that, unless you can't afford to buy the insurance in the first place. But there's some sort of catch to this, like...

    Here's the thing. This is the first time in US History that the government can legally force you to buy a product that is unrelated to direct taxes or an imminent threat, against the will of the American people (a majority of people were against this, according to many polls done by both the right and left; both sides got similar results). Not only are they going to require you to buy insurance, but they have specifically stated that you have to be covered to an extent that satisfies the IRS. So now, the IRS can tell you to buy insurance, and even make you buy whatever policy they want. Say you have Allstate or one of those other insurances. Maybe it isn't enough for the IRS. Now all of a sudden, they're telling you that you have to buy a different policy, or maybe even MULTIPLE policies. They will have the authority to make you do this, and you WILL have to do this. And those that don't, will be slapped with a fine. Anyone who doesn't have insurance is going to have to pay by the year. And if you don't, your wages will be garnished. The government should not be allowed to force you to do this. To be allowed to force you into this is nothing more than Socialism. It's unconstitutional, and I think it's high time for people to wake up.

    ...The IRS are the scary tax people, right? The goverment officials who collect taxes; so if you haven't been paying them they won't let you buy health insurance? That seems pretty sensible to me-just pay your taxes! But then again, that could lead into another debate about whether some taxes are fair ot not...and whether it's right to let the IRS control you that much...grrah, my head is spinning. Just how influential are the IRS, anyway?
     

    Åzurε

    Shi-shi-shi-shaw!
  • 2,276
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    15
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    • Seen Jun 2, 2013
    Because people here cannot accept the fact that Health care access is a vital part of a persons ability to live.

    Helpful? Undeniably. Vital? Hardly. Immune systems and livers are vital parts of a person's ability to live.

    My guess is you have strong opinions on the subject, and hence, "Fact" and "Vital".
    That quote, however, is not a real response to observations of an attempt to justify this bill with an apparently irrelevant example.
     
    Last edited:

    FreakyLocz14

    Conservative Patriot
  • 3,498
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    • Seen Aug 29, 2018
    If healthcare is a vital part of a person's existance explain why me and my siblings have survived a good 13-20 years without it.

    Food and shelter and what is vital.
     
  • 9,468
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    Helpful? Undeniably. Vital? Hardly. Immune systems and livers are vital parts of a person's ability to live.

    My guess is you have strong opinions on the subject, and hence, "Fact" and "Vital".
    That quote, however, is not a real response to observations of an attempt to justify this bill with an apparently irrelevant example.

    And so the breakthroughs in medicine are not supposed to be shared to all those that need it? How do you expect to have a healthy workforce if you allow them to work in unproductive conditions. :/

    And yeah, while our immune systems are great wonders of human anatomy, it cannot by itself get rid of Diabetes, heart disease, cancer and other long term ailments. Plus yeah, our fractures will properly heal themselves without any medical help.

    How is it an irrelevant example? Isn't that why you rush a person to the emergency room in case of illness and accidents? The reason we are debating this LAW is because although you might have access to the emergency room, we have to foot the bill with higher premiums.

    If healthcare is a vital part of a person's existance explain why me and my siblings have survived a good 13-20 years without it.

    Food and shelter and what is vital.

    Yeah, because the had of fate was good to you guys. >__>
    Just pray that you guys stay safe.

    And those 2 are provided if you actually look for it.
     

    Chibi Robo

    of the entire epoch!
  • 854
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    What happens with free health care:

    Free healthcare bill is passed.

    Lots of people uninsured want it.
    More people means longer lines.
    Longer Lines meaning longer wait.
    Longer Lines mean you might not get your operation in time.
    Not getting it in time could lead to a possible death or permanent damage.

    Plus in this Health care bill illegal immigrants can get coverage.

    Which means more lines :D

    Also Doctors get a lowered income.

    So now less doctors to treat the many patients.
    Isn't this lovely~

    Honestly I would love Health care reform, but not done like this.
    Fortunately for us this thing doesn't take effect in about 4 years.
    I stated my opinion, troll plz
     

    Luck

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • 6,779
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    • Seen May 20, 2023
    Anyway, I've already explained on my site why this is unconstitutional, and what is going to be happening in the future. You can take it as you will. But this situation won't magically go away just because some words are changed or because a few historical points are misconstrued to give someone a fleeting debate advantage.

    Since you went out of your way to provide a link for us who are ignorant of your presence, I'll just put this down and be on my way.

    »This I think«

    And this is the tip of the iceberg. It only gets worse from here. Alot worse.
    I thought the whole Bush administration was the tip?

    ANYWAYS, thanks for the tip Alan Greenspan.
     

    Åzurε

    Shi-shi-shi-shaw!
  • 2,276
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    • Seen Jun 2, 2013
    And so the breakthroughs in medicine are not supposed to be shared to all those that need it? How do you expect to have a healthy workforce if you allow them to work in unproductive conditions? :/
    Did I say that you were to withhold medicine like that...?

    Logical consequences of refusing to buy something such as a car is one thing. Deeming it unlawful to not purchase something is limiting freedom (which is supposed to be one of the things this country was made for). If people wish to put themselves in a position where they are at risk for something, why stop them? If the cards come up wrong, well, they deal with the consequences of the decisions they made. Forcing the matter through government makes no sense to me. Everyone is paying for everyone whether they are benefiting or not. This strikes no chords with you?

    And yeah, while our immune systems are great wonders of human anatomy, it cannot by itself get rid of Diabetes, heart disease, cancer and other long term ailments. Plus yeah, our fractures will properly heal themselves without any medical help.
    Hey, they do for me and my extended family at least. As for the rest of this bit, appropriate changes in diet do wonders for diabetes and heart disease, and cancer-specific facilities are already very accessible anyway. If it comes down to "saving my life with drugs and surgery", people are indeed less stupid than other people take them for, and can get it (or find it, rather) themselves.

    How is it an irrelevant example? Isn't that why you rush a person to the emergency room in case of illness and accidents? The reason we are debating this LAW is because although you might have access to the emergency room, we have to foot the bill with higher premiums.
    I was referring to your older post about George Washington.

    Okay, okay. Law.

    Yeah, because the hand of fate was good to you guys. >__>
    Just pray that you guys stay safe.
    I always do.

    And those 2 [food and shelter] are provided if you actually look for it.
    Exactly right. It's provided if you look for it.
     

    TRIFORCE89

    Guide of Darkness
  • 8,123
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    20
    Years
    What happens with free health care:

    Free healthcare bill is passed.

    Lots of people uninsured want it.
    More people means longer lines.
    Longer Lines meaning longer wait.
    Longer Lines mean you might not get your operation in time.
    Not getting it in time could lead to a possible death or permanent damage.

    Plus in this Health care bill illegal immigrants can get coverage.

    Which means more lines :D

    Also Doctors get a lowered income.

    So now less doctors to treat the many patients.
    Isn't this lovely~

    Honestly I would love Health care reform, but not done like this.
    Fortunately for us this thing doesn't take effect in about 4 years.
    I stated my opinion, troll plz
    Actually.... no. Illegal immigrants are not covered. In fact there's nothing for them to be covered with. There's no public option.

    This is a problem we have in Canada that bugs me. Technically, I don't think anyway, they aren't covered. Neither are travellers. But everyone just lets it slide for some reason. Which costs us money.

    Longer lines means that everyone who needs to see a doctor actually is instead of sitting at home because they can't afford it. So, that's a good thing.

    Same argument about the lower wages for doctor's. I don't know the bill instead and out, but...logically... given that this is a health insurance reform bill and not a health care reform bill, that's there's no public option, that the government won't be "distributing" health (which don't happen anyway with universal health care but seems to be a popular talking point), there's no reason for doctor's to have lower pay. If there was a public option, if this was universal healthcare... yeah, their salaries would take a hit because the tax payer is paying for it. But this didn't happen, so it's non-issue.
     

    Chibi Robo

    of the entire epoch!
  • 854
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    15
    Years

    Actually.... no. Illegal immigrants are not covered. In fact there's nothing for them to be covered with. There's no public option.

    This is a problem we have in Canada that bugs me. Technically, I don't think anyway, they aren't covered. Neither are travellers. But everyone just lets it slide for some reason. Which costs us money.

    Longer lines means that everyone who needs to see a doctor actually is instead of sitting at home because they can't afford it. So, that's a good thing.

    Same argument about the lower wages for doctor's. I don't know the bill instead and out, but...logically... given that this is a health insurance reform bill and not a health care reform bill, that's there's no public option, that the government won't be "distributing" health (which don't happen anyway with universal health care but seems to be a popular talking point), there's no reason for doctor's to have lower pay. If there was a public option, if this was universal healthcare... yeah, their salaries would take a hit because the tax payer is paying for it. But this didn't happen, so it's non-issue.

    That may be true, but there is a huge point I forgot to miss.
    about a trillion dollars of dept will be given to the U.S. to pay off because of this healthcare plan. Now last time I recall hearing about the national dept it was 7 - 8 trillion. If we're in a recession right now, why are we spending so much?
     
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    The Congressional Budget Office says the bill will save $138 billion over the course of a decade and up to $1.2 trillion over the next. But they probably made up that number in between death panel meetings chaired by illegal immigrants.

    But that's really not the point. The government has to spend in a recession to get out of a recession whether they rack up debt or not. That's what they did after Great Depression with all those public works programs. A healthy workforce that isn't spending all its money on medical bills is going to be spending their cash on cars and $6 coffees and whatever else the economy runs on.
     
  • 9,468
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    Did I say that you were to withhold medicine like that...?

    Logical consequences of refusing to buy something such as a car is one thing. Deeming it unlawful to not purchase something is limiting freedom (which is supposed to be one of the things this country was made for). If people wish to put themselves in a position where they are at risk for something, why stop them? If the cards come up wrong, well, they deal with the consequences of the decisions they made. Forcing the matter through government makes no sense to me. Everyone is paying for everyone whether they are benefiting or not. This strikes no chords with you?

    Yes, because access to medicine depends on one's ability to pay in the Health care system of the United States.

    We need to "stop them" from taking such risks in that we as a society foot the bill in the end. We pay twice overall for healthcare, make buisnesses less competitive in the world market by creating disincentives that bar access to proper medical care.

    Hey, they do for me and my extended family at least. As for the rest of this bit, appropriate changes in diet do wonders for diabetes and heart disease, and cancer-specific facilities are already very accessible anyway. If it comes down to "saving my life with drugs and surgery", people are indeed less stupid than other people take them for, and can get it (or find it, rather) themselves.

    But as you said isn't it one's freedom to choose the consumer intensive lifestyle. While we are already bombarded with PSA's saying "change for the better" nobody bothers to listen, and yeah cancer surgery, and chemotheraphy are handed out as charity to everyone. >___>

    I was referring to your older post about George Washington.

    Yet that is because older precidents are always cited in Judicial debates, people always reference to the founding fathers and the constitution without realizing that there is the Amendment process and judicial rulings signifying that it's definition is always fluid.

    I always do.

    Sad to say it doesn't always work. :/

    Exactly right. It's provided if you look for it.

    But not Healthcare, you are saddled with debt (and bankruptcy) if you are struck by a medical malady.
     

    SBaby

    Dungeon Master
  • 2,005
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    • Seen Apr 9, 2015
    This is the fifth time I've tried posting this. Let's see if it works this time.



    ."A lot better than something you will never use..."

    Wow that is one of the craziest things I've heard in a while. Because who cares about going to the doctor when I'm sick. Forget about good health choices and live your life to the fullest! >__>

    Sheesh, people keep on complaining about rising healthcare cost without realizing it's their own fault. Who the heck pays for your emergency room visit when you waltz down there because you've been in an accident? Our darn premiums go up because we ultimately pay for your visit. People think they are invincible when they are young but that is not the case. V___V


    First, learn to read. I said, you might not ever use it. Maybe you will, but maybe I won't. And the thing is, I agree that people should be entitled to it. But I don't think we should be required by law to buy insurance or face a fine. It should be up to the people whether they buy the product, not the government. And I think it's high time the people actually stood up and took back this country.

    So stop dancing around my post looking for ways to misconstrue what I typed. Because you aren't fooling anyone. To everybody else: This is exacxtly what I mean by misinformation being more harmful than helpful.
     

    PokemonLeagueChamp

    Traveling Hoenn once more.
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    I would have to agree. If the government can tell you to buy something, what else can they order you to do? Why do you think all those states are taking this up against the Federal Government?

    Frankly, I'd have to agree with Joe Biden's statement, "This is a big f***ing deal." It is, but for all the wrong reasons.
     
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    It should be up to the people whether they buy the product, not the government.
    It's not a product. It's a necessary service.

    You can't always keep your house from catching fire no matter how careful you are. That's why there's the fire department you pay to keep running. You can't always avoid fender benders no matter how good a driver you are. That's why you need to buy insurance. You can't always keep yourself well no matter how healthy you are. That's why health care for everyone is necessary.

    If you don't have insurance you're putting yourself and other people at risk. Imagine if people were able to opt out of having the fire department come to their house in exchange for paying fewer taxes. What happens if your house catches fire? The firefighters can either let your house burn because you didn't pay and put your neighbors at risk your neighbors' houses or they can protect everyone and save your house even though you didn't pay and everyone else had to pick up the slack.

    If you get sick with something contagious you're more than likely going to get someone else sick and cause them to take time off from work or a trip to the drugstore/hospital. You've caused them financial trouble and you have to pay for it. Since you can never know who infects who the only way to make things fair is for everyone to share in the costs of keeping society as a whole healthy.

    In conclusion: it's not a product; it's a responsibility of anyone living in a civilized society.
     

    Åzurε

    Shi-shi-shi-shaw!
  • 2,276
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    • Seen Jun 2, 2013
    It's not a product. It's a necessary service.

    You can't always keep your house from catching fire no matter how careful you are. That's why there's the fire department you pay to keep running. You can't always avoid fender benders no matter how good a driver you are. That's why you need to buy insurance. You can't always keep yourself well no matter how healthy you are. That's why health care for everyone is necessary.

    If you don't have insurance you're putting yourself and other people at risk. Imagine if people were able to opt out of having the fire department come to their house in exchange for paying fewer taxes. What happens if your house catches fire? The firefighters can either let your house burn because you didn't pay and put your neighbors at risk your neighbors' houses or they can protect everyone and save your house even though you didn't pay and everyone else had to pick up the slack.

    If you get sick with something contagious you're more than likely going to get someone else sick and cause them to take time off from work or a trip to the drugstore/hospital. You've caused them financial trouble and you have to pay for it. Since you can never know who infects who the only way to make things fair is for everyone to share in the costs of keeping society as a whole healthy.

    In conclusion: it's not a product; it's a responsibility of anyone living in a civilized society.

    First off, germs are not fires. Fire is immediate, always has the potential to destroy your material possessions and take lives in a matter of hours, and is fairly common because we as a nation use it in controlled environments multiple times in multiple locations everyday.

    Health problems come in multiple shades of severity, and even moderately dangerous diseases can be overcome reliably without intervention or money. Serious, life threatening issues like cancer are big business right now, and you can find surgeons and specialists all over the place in the U.S. Note, Netto, that I did not say this was free. There are grants and other services available today to help people who cannot pay for the treatment.

    Continuing from that earlier sentiment, I propose that many people go to hospitals too often for things that don't require it. There are plenty of ways to deter disease in the sense it was used in Scarf's example. Regular hand washing, living in a clean home, diet, etc. are surprisingly effective and even if you get it, you can take a day or two off work, rest, drink your liquids, take frequent showers, or take an immune booster or something. If you're really concerned about society, there's always self-quarantine.

    Health care is not a responsibility of anyone living in a civilized society, for the purpose of Scarf's example it's a supplemental to steps you can take to help keep yourself and others healthy.
     
  • 10,769
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    First off, germs are not fires. Fire is immediate, always has the potential to destroy your material possessions and take lives in a matter of hours, and is fairly common because we as a nation use it in controlled environments multiple times in multiple locations everyday.
    Think of disease as a slow acting fire. It destroys in days, months and years, but fighting it can bankrupt you (which is just as bad as having your house burn down) and it can still take your life if it's not stopped in time.
    Health problems come in multiple shades of severity, and even moderately dangerous diseases can be overcome reliably without intervention or money. Serious, life threatening issues like cancer are big business right now, and you can find surgeons and specialists all over the place in the U.S. Note, Netto, that I did not say this was free. There are grants and other services available today to help people who cannot pay for the treatment.
    I have a relative who suffers chronic pain. It's not life-threatening, but she has trouble working for a full day because of it even while taking precautions not to over-strain herself. There's no free/cheap/home remedy for this. Medicines to treat it cost hundreds of dollars and even with them she needs to see physical therapists to help manage the pain and that costs even more hundreds of dollars. There are no grants or other services giving her money to pay for this.
    I propose that many people go to hospitals too often for things that don't require it. There are plenty of ways to deter disease in the sense it was used in Scarf's example. Regular hand washing, living in a clean home, diet, etc. are surprisingly effective and even if you get it, you can take a day or two off work, rest, drink your liquids, take frequent showers, or take an immune booster or something. If you're really concerned about society, there's always self-quarantine.
    I propose that many people don't go to hospitals when they really do require it. None of these steps, good though they are (seriously, people should wash their hands more), will do a thing for someone with a serious chronic illness. Cancer and HIV absolutely require you to see doctors. Taking time off work can cut into your pay and that's really going to hurt people living from paycheck to paycheck. And I wouldn't trust everyone to keep themselves clean and healthy just for my sake because they all won't and I can still get sick from some infected person coughing next to me on the bus even if I take my vitamins.
     
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