Corporations

[Esper]

The elephant in the room in any debate about money and politics: Corporations. Legal entities ("persons") comprised of several real, actual persons (a board of directors, shareholders) with limited liability. Often corporations exist for the purpose of making money, but not-for-profits exist, too. They're everywhere so it's worth talking about them, but there is so much that could be said that I think it's best for anyone who wants to to start the conversation how they'd like.

However, since I get the feeling there will be lots of negative things said about them I would like to suggest to anyone who has any examples of good corporations, corporations doing good things, or is generally supportive of corporations and their existence to add to the conversation so we can get, you know, a good discussion going and maybe learn something.

 

[Somewhere_]

When i was working in food banks last spring break, a lot of corporations or businesses gave away their surpluses that weren't sold. There were a lot, so i can't really name all of them. Nor do i remember all of them. I think i remember a lot of Kellogg's products being on the shelfs, so buy from them if you want to support a corp/business doing good things!

 

[gimmepie]

There's nothing wrong with corporations themselves existing, the problem is when their influence starts having a negative effect on politics and economics. Basically corporations just need to be strictly regulated and then everything is fine.

Queue BadSheep telling me off for being a nasty socialist in 3... 2...

 

[CoffeeDrink]

Well. There is a split difference between what you see as a corporation, and an organization.

For the purpose of knowledge, there are numerous accounts of groups, associations, collectives, enclaves, United, federal, firms, academia, and companies, etc. Each have their own specific and unique litigation regarding lawful use and who specifically has a say in things.

There are differences that should be acknowledged before trudging the needlessly complicated sludge that is the international trading market.

I, for one, believe that certain organizations are some of the most extreme on the spectrum of crazy and helpful.

Take for example the CDC. The CDC is known for its efforts to stem epidemics and find vaccines and cures for deadly diseases and viral contagion, however, the CDC has also been linked to research into viral contaminants as usage for biological weapons. Most notably attempting to revitalize and/or synthesize a strain of the Spanish flu, a disease that encircled the globe in the early 1900's and put down 40+ million people. There is no known current cure for the disease.

The corporations and firms, I find, hover right around the middle. Tax evasion (nearly every American big business skates around taxes, some not paying any at all... google.)

There are some differences between a firm and company, but verbiage wise, there isn't much difference. On paper and for Tax purposes... different story.

So, I believe it varies on a case by case basis.

 

[Arsenic]

I only have terrible experiences with corporations. Be it my old employer going out of their way to make me feel like nothing more than employee #174256, or the lack of humanity/only caring about profits of game publishers that push anti-consumer tactics hard on their developers. I'm sure I could find a million more example of horrible things they do since they have money, but those are the two that affect me the most.

I for one think the world would be better without them, and swear on my life that if we let them continue they will bring back slavery of all races just to maximize profits. That and the end of the world.

 

[Somewhere_]

There's nothing wrong with corporations themselves existing, the problem is when their influence starts having a negative effect on politics and economics. Basically corporations just need to be strictly regulated and then everything is fine.

Queue BadSheep telling me off for being a nasty socialist in 3... 2...

...1 SOCIALIST SCUM! now I'm gonna have to oppress the proletariat even more even tho I'm technically one lol

In all seriousness, you are spot-on that corporations + politics have no business together in that corporations should not have a place in influencing the latter. Corporate lobbying and inversely, subsidies, only lead closer and closer to oligarchical rule over time. Thats not even considering the artificial monopolies given to the corporations and the occurrence of regulatory capture. Cronyism will always lead to the negotiating bias towards corporations with the distorted price of labor (being lower than what it should be).

According to the Iron Law of Oligarchy, this is irreversible under current democracies we have today, nor will corporations and self-interested politicians let the system end. It is also inevitable that increasing corruption will occur as a result.

However, like i mentioned in my previous post, there are good corporations. And many times, if corporations do not take government-granted subsidies, they can be sued for not maximizing the well-being of the worker. Corporations can also be a victim in this situation.

I also do not believe the proper solution is to increase the tax burden on corporations because this will only incentivize outsourcing and storing money overseas, as well as encouraging their current practices of regulatory capture, lobbying, and other forums of corrupting government. Rather, i believe the proper solution is to end the regulation causing these issues in the first place and severing the ties between government and corporations.

However, this will require a new system of governance more apt to dealing with this other than democratic-republicanism, which has demonstrated that it is not an adequate defense against corruption. A system of government that suppresses this parasitism (corporatism). And the alternatives I would propose are not exactly popular (though this does not diminish the practicality of such alternatives).

I hope that was at least somewhat coherent considering I'm dead tired at the moment

 

[CoffeeDrink]

I can understand some positions, but only partly. Certain companies can, and will, attempt to solicit favor amongst political dealings, but it goes both ways.

You can't have the government going into a bank, doing faulty reports saying "you're charging blacks more for car loans" and taxing them millions of dollars, even though there were no regulations set in place. It's a two way street, and finding that middle ground? Well that'll be the day I die when the government and the people agree on taxes.

And let's not forget our glorious entertainment! Did you know (until relatively recently... or maybe not. I don't trust 'em either way) that the NFL was/is a non-profit organization? Nice to know that since they have used this status to take your money, my money to build stadiums is testament to the fact that corruption seeps into the very far cracks. I don't even like football! But guess what? Too bad, because the NFL decided to build a stadium, and your public service monies look mighty tasty. No one stepped in and said "hey wait a minute" oh, no. A lot of people don't realize they're being lied to about where their tax dollars are going.

Oh, and the Federal Reserve. Fun fact: Andrew Jackson challenged (I honestly cannot remember now... damn.) anyway, I believe he was a vice presidential nominee, and shot him due to the fact that he (the dead man) advocated for a central bank (I can find the name if you really want it). A central bank is counter to a capitalistic system of government and most of the Republicans (if memory serves) were against it. The Federal Reserve prints our money, despite being in no way affiliated in operation of our government. Since our government continually borrows their money, they gave birth to a fun little system we like to call: the IRS.

I would like to see a system that didn't fail, but let's be reasonable here, there has been no system overtly fair, nor stable enough to sustain itself. There is always one mitigating factor that always sees the system brought low: people. Nevertheless, I'd still like to hear your ideas. Mine are all shit, because I know what people are capable of, and I could never design a system that prevents corruption or human error.

But anyways, corporations, firms, establishments all go hand in hand with governmental systems. I find separating them extremely difgicult, if not impossible, to seperate.

 

[Esper]

I'm also in the anti-corporate camp when it comes to government. The EpiPen disaster is a fine example of corporations getting too cozy with politicians to the immediate detriment of the people. But as much as I like to blame politicians, it's no individual directly at fault, but the system that allows money into politics which I think is the blame. Some politicians support this system, some are just part of it passively, but since the corporations are among the biggest spenders I point a lot of the blame at them.

The Federal Reserve prints our money, despite being in no way affiliated in operation of our government. Since our government continually borrows their money, they gave birth to a fun little system we like to call: the IRS.

I don't mean to get too off topic, but isn't the IRS the office we use to make sure that the government gets its taxes? Taxes being the lifeblood of a government. The merits of our current IRS aside, the idea of an office of the government that ensures taxes are paid makes complete sense for a functioning government.

 

[CoffeeDrink]

I don't mean to get too off topic, but isn't the IRS the office we use to make sure that the government gets its taxes? Taxes being the lifeblood of a government. The merits of our current IRS aside, the idea of an office of the government that ensures taxes are paid makes complete sense for a functioning government.

In the late 1800's, the IRS, or the Comissioner of Internal Revenue was initially crafted to collect income taxes to pay off civil war expenses and was put into effect by Lincoln somewhere in 1862 or 1863. Ten years later, it was repealed. About 20 some odd years later (1892), Congress attempted to bring it back but the position was repealed by the Supreme Court, citing it as unconstitutional.

Now, in The Great War and WWII the system was muddled. The 16th amendment was brought about in the early 1900's, which was never ratified. The IRS solely exists to pay off the government's own debt, a debt that they alone created through a long string of poor choices and bad decisions. The IRS is a private organisation registered in Delaware, so make of that what you will. The Federal Reserve owns America. It was a system that the founding fathers fought against and abhorred.

The last president who offered to do something about the reserve? Well, we all know what happened to Kennedy. It's all very sneaky, sneaky. And all very dirty and muddy. The IRS isn't a system of benevolence for our country or economy. It was a tool brought about to collect money to pay off debts to a system nobody wanted but the richy rich. The name alone was designed as a way to fool the masses into thinking it was a governmental entity. They print the money, our politicians kneel before their feet. It's been this way for decades and no one wants you to know the truth. Look at a dollar bill. Federal Reserve Note is stamped right on it

Don't listen to me. Do yourself the favor and learn for yourself. The IRS is a group of liars and crooks. The more you read, the more you learn, the more crazy you sound.

Look. See. Know. Suspect what you knew.

 

[Somewhere_]

In the late 1800's, the IRS, or the Comissioner of Internal Revenue was initially crafted to collect income taxes to pay off civil war expenses and was put into effect by Lincoln somewhere in 1862 or 1863. Ten years later, it was repealed. About 20 some odd years later (1892), Congress attempted to bring it back but the position was repealed by the Supreme Court, citing it as unconstitutional.

Now, in The Great War and WWII the system was muddled. The 16th amendment was brought about in the early 1900's, which was never ratified. The IRS solely exists to pay off the government's own debt, a debt that they alone created through a long string of poor choices and bad decisions. The IRS is a private organisation registered in Delaware, so make of that what you will. The Federal Reserve owns America. It was a system that the founding fathers fought against and abhorred.

The last president who offered to do something about the reserve? Well, we all know what happened to Kennedy. It's all very sneaky, sneaky. And all very dirty and muddy. The IRS isn't a system of benevolence for our country or economy. It was a tool brought about to collect money to pay off debts to a system nobody wanted but the richy rich. The name alone was designed as a way to fool the masses into thinking it was a governmental entity. They print the money, our politicians kneel before their feet. It's been this way for decades and no one wants you to know the truth. Look at a dollar bill. Federal Reserve Note is stamped right on it

Don't listen to me. Do yourself the favor and learn for yourself. The IRS is a group of liars and crooks. The more you read, the more you learn, the more crazy you sound.

Look. See. Know. Suspect what you knew.

I am probably just as anti-Federal Reserve as you (for economic and moral reasons), but what does the Fed have to do with the IRS?

The only similarity I can gather between the two is that there were steps taken by Lincoln halfway towards national bank (still no Fed tho) to help pay for the Civil War, like the IRS. Except the latter was for debt. I think its important to note that the Fed was created in 1913 and is a quasi-private organization, the purpose being to create a stable currency and reduce the business cycle. Ironically, its done quite the opposite.

I disagree... the Fed is controlled by the government, not the opposite way around. Same with the IRS because tax rates (including income tax) have been lowered since its creation, such as under Calvin Coolidge and Ronald Reagan. Also neither the IRS or Fed are privately owned... as soon as an organization becomes involved with government and becomes a legal entity, they become semi-private and more fascistic in nature. Similar to how a business becomes a corporation.

Also do you have proof that the IRS is corrupt? I haven't done the research that myself, but I am against it simply because I believe it is uneconomical and helps to exaggerate the issues of democracy.

Just a little critique I guess.