Corrupt women and children

[Feign]

Edgy title, I know. Thanks for stopping by, now first for the disclaimer.

WARNING: Contents in this post may be offensive to some people, if you find that you are offended please do not respond in an inappropriate manner. Furthermore, for those who do respond, please do so in a respectful manner, we are attempting to debate an interesting topic, and do not want it derailed. (I might just start a list of shame here, for those who are not open minded, or do not truly wish to talk about this topic :P). I want this debate to continue, I don't want it to burn to the ground, because people are getting mad at each other, or whatever. Also, try not to respond with one-liners, it detracts from the whole debate...

Needless to say, a friend brought up a certain Bible passage the other day, and I felt like sharing it. Now, first off, I am not a Christian, I am a Deist, so I am quite open minded, and I respect other people's beliefs. I used to believe in the more Christian sense of God, but stopped believing for various reasons. Now the reason alluded to in the title was not one of them, but I was still nonetheless astounded as to what it says, and surprised it is not questioned as much, by those who do believe.

The particular passage is: Numbers 31 (the whole portion, use whatever source you like, as there are many translations).

Here I will provide the New American Standard version:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

1Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2"(A)Take full vengeance for the sons of Israel on the Midianites; afterward you will be (B)gathered to your people."
3Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute (C)the LORD'S vengeance on Midian.
4"A thousand from each tribe of all the tribes of Israel you shall send to the war."
5So there were furnished from the thousands of Israel, a thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
6Moses sent them, a thousand from each tribe, to the war, and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war with them, (D)and the holy vessels and (E)the trumpets for the alarm in his hand.
7So they made war against Midian, just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and (F)they killed every male.
8They killed the kings of Midian along with the rest of their slain: (G)Evi and Rekem and (H)Zur and Hur and Reba, the five kings of Midian; they also killed (I)Balaam the son of Beor with the sword.
9The sons of Israel captured the women of Midian and their little ones; and all their cattle and all their flocks and all their goods they plundered.
10Then they burned all their cities where they lived and all their camps with fire.
11(J)They took all the spoil and all the prey, both of man and of beast.
12They brought the captives and the prey and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest and to the congregation of the sons of Israel, to the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by the Jordan opposite Jericho.
13Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the congregation went out to meet them outside the camp.
14Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who had come from service in the war.
15And Moses said to them, "Have you spared (K)all the women?
16"(L)Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of (M)Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD.
17"(N)Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
19"(O)And you, camp outside the camp seven days; whoever has killed any person and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves, you and your captives, on the third day and on the seventh day.
20"You shall purify for yourselves every garment and every article of leather and all the work of goats' hair, and all articles of wood."
21Then Eleazar the priest said to the men of war who had gone to battle, "This is the statute of the law which the LORD has commanded Moses:
22only the gold and the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin and the lead,
23everything that can stand the fire, you shall pass through the fire, and it shall be clean, but it shall be purified with (P)water for impurity. But whatever cannot stand the fire you shall pass through the water.
24"And you shall wash your clothes on the seventh day and be clean, and afterward you may enter the camp."
Division of the Booty

25Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 26"You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' households of the congregation take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of animal;
27and (Q)divide the booty between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation.
28"(R)Levy a tax for the LORD from the men of war who went out to battle, one in five hundred of the persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep;
29take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest, as an offering to the LORD.
30"From the sons of Israel's half, you shall take one drawn out of every fifty of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys and of the sheep, from all the animals, and give them to the Levites who (S)keep charge of the tabernacle of the LORD."
31Moses and Eleazar the priest did just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
32Now the booty that remained from the spoil which the men of war had plundered was 675,000 sheep,
33and 72,000 cattle,
34and 61,000 donkeys,
35and of human beings, of the women who had not known man intimately, all the persons were 32,000.
36The half, the portion of those who went out to war, was as follows: the number of sheep was 337,500,
37and the LORD'S levy of the sheep was 675;
38and the cattle were 36,000, from which the LORD'S levy was 72;
39and the donkeys were 30,500, from which the LORD'S levy was 61;
40and the human beings were 16,000, from whom the LORD'S levy was 32 persons.
41Moses gave the levy which was the LORD'S offering to Eleazar the priest, just (T)as the LORD had commanded Moses.
42As for the sons of Israel's half, which Moses separated from the men who had gone to war--
43now the congregation's half was 337,500 sheep,
44and 36,000 cattle,
45and 30,500 donkeys,
46and the human beings were 16,000--
47and from the sons of Israel's half, Moses took one drawn out of every fifty, both of man and of animals, and gave them to the Levites, who kept charge of the tabernacle of the LORD, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
48Then the officers who were over the thousands of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, approached Moses,
49and they said to Moses, "Your servants have taken a census of men of war who are in our charge, and no man of us is missing.
50"So we have brought as an offering to the LORD what each man found, articles of gold, armlets and bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces, (U)to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD."
51Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold from them, all kinds of wrought articles.
52All the gold of the offering which they offered up to the LORD, from the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, was 16,750 shekels.
53(V)The men of war had taken booty, every man for himself.
54So Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold from the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it to the tent of meeting as (W)a memorial for the sons of Israel before the LORD.


This can be found at https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=numbers 31&version=NASB along with other versions of the Bible to compare with as need be.

I have provided you with all of 31, but it is really the bolded portion that I wanted to bring to attention.


A summary:


God tells Moses to go to war in vengeance (up to interpretation) against the men of the supposed enemy. After the war, Moses questions as to why his men haven't killed all the women and children, as it was the women and children who have corrupted the men to begin with. So thus he tells them to kill all the women and children except the women that are virgins.
---


A couple of questions:


- Is this right, in a general sense?


- Is this right, because God willed it? (Assume in this question that God exists)



- Is this right, because women that are no longer virgins, corrupt men?


- Is this right, in terms of the time that this took place?


Start off with those, and branch out. ;) After all, it is not as simple as answering the questions, but rather to gain your own thoughts from the matter, and interpret it in your way. These questions are just here to make you think, you don't have to explicitly answer them in your post.

 

[Heart~Bunny]

- Is this right, in a general sense?
No, I don't agree. How does a woman who lacks virginity corrupt anybody by it? What about a man who lost his virginity. Why, with the double standard?


- Is this right, because God willed it? (Assume in this question that God exists)
I don't think God would do that. I can't imagine God hating women and children so much. One must wonder at something like that.


- Is this right, because women that are no longer virgins, corrupt men?
What about men that are no longer virgins? Do they corrupt women? No. So I don't think so.

- Is this right, in terms of the time that this took place?
Unfortunately in the time and place yes. "If you think this generation is bad look at the generation before."

 

[poopnoodle]

The slaughter of the Medianites was among several accounts in the Old Testament that showed God's true colors, the kind of god that I would turn my back on. The kind of God who killed his own people for reasons beyond understanding, or I think, for no reason at all. I think the whole "it's God's will, these are God's creations and and he has the right to command that a genocide be carried out if he pleases" is a cop-out for people who refuse to judge their god. It doesn't make sense and is unfair, in my view, to carry out such extreme actions through the human beings that worship him. Then again the Bible is all open to interpretation and all that jazz and my mind is starting to feel jumbled so it's not something I like to think about too often =3=

 

[Luck]

- Is this right, in a general sense?
I don't see how it can be. It wouldn't be justified in the eyes of a Christian(or any Christian denomination) if anyone of another faith did it because of their faith.

- Is this right, because God willed it? (Assume in this question that God exists)
I don't see how this can be justified in any way. Some people just say it is justified only because they're on that side.

- Is this right, because women that are no longer virgins, corrupt men?
Nope and it's childish to assume so.

- Is this right, in terms of the time that this took place?
It wasn't right back then, and it isn't any more right now.


But, it's all up to interpretation(or the old testament is somehow excluded since the new testament was made.)
I call it cherry picking, but meh.

 

[Esper]

Is this right, in a general sense? Is this right because God willed it? Is this right because women that are no longer virgins corrupt men? Is this right in terms of the time that this took place?

What isn't wrong about this? Kill all the males, kill all the women who aren't virgins, rape keep the virgins for yourself? Okay, putting aside the barbarian morality that influenced all of this, if anything it seems to say that men are the impure ones because women are "pure" until touched by men. The men get killed outright whether they're virgins or not. Not that they would have considered virginity something that applied to males back then. Virginity only mattered for a woman (or, sadly, a young girl) because the menfolk had to know that they were the only ones "planting their seeds."

I can't see wholesale slaughter as right, even if a god existed and said it was. That's not a god anyone should listen to. It's a classic example of "taking the lord's name in vain" (meaning, saying god told you to do something you just want to do anyway so you'll have some kind of authority backing you up). Now, (still working within the barbarian morality) the corruption started with the men. So it's just men corrupting everyone. Of course, this corruption is what, sin? And everyone knows that's woman's fault. So even when their own arguments point to men being the source of the corruption it sounds like women are getting the blaming just 'cuz. Yeah, yeah, women "tempt" men and all that. Then why let any of them live if they're just going to grow up and become temptresses? The whole reasoning for the slaughter just falls to pieces, as it should because there is no way to justify it. It's just evil.

Yes, it was common for the time. That doesn't make it right. That doesn't excuse it. If you excuse that you'd have to excuse all kinds of horrible things in history and even in our own day and age.

 

[Feign]

It certainly isn't fair that women are left out as rags, when the men get all the glory. As some of you already mentioned of the lack of questioning of a male losing virginity. I wonder why this was applicable or pertinent during their time... Were men just that much more animalistic?

Does this particular portion of the Bible justify Christianity as a whole?

What does it mean for a Christian to disregard parts of the bible?

I suppose we could also look at it in retrospect, what might women do to corrupt men? The only thing I can think of is sex... And the aftermath of it, would be that now the man wants more (as what seems to be alluded to in the quote).

Gala, you bring up an interesting point, that I too, thought. Where the interpretation of God doing right or wrong things (in our own mindset) is questioned. It's similar to that story of Abraham being asked to kill his son, by God, only to be stopped by an angel (sent by God) to test Abraham's faith.

Perhaps it is reason, then that prevents a sort of outright moral ambiguity.

 

[twocows]

If you look back at Genesis, it was Eve who was first tempted. I'm almost certain this applies to this passage somehow. Both the men and women had to die because both were sinful; somewhere in the Bible, I think that it says that sinners should not be afforded any sympathy or something along those lines.

Unfortunately, Christians have to believe all of the Bible; they can't just disregard parts of it, or they're not truly Christians. Remember that the New Testament also gives context to the Old Testament. I imagine that a priest or other holy man might be able to give a better interpretation than I.

But that's just the opinion of an atheist. :)

 

[Feign]

Makes sense though Twocows. I suppose we could view Adam's assertion of the scapegoating he did towards Eve, but could that be interpreted as scapegoating, especially back then?

And I can't recall off the top of my head, but was it that God had sort of a "pact" with Moses, that's why he and his clan were "untouchable" and rather getting things quite easily with God on their side? Makes me wonder why God was specifically on Moses' side, and not anyone elses.

 

[magikarptrainer]

What about men that are no longer virgins? Do they corrupt women? No. So I don't think so.

Sometimes they do >____> <___<

 

[.Bullet]

And I can't recall off the top of my head, but was it that God had sort of a "pact" with Moses, that's why he and his clan were "untouchable" and rather getting things quite easily with God on their side? Makes me wonder why God was specifically on Moses' side, and not anyone elses.

Through my eyes, if God did choose sides, that would make him himself imperfect, because that shows He doesn't love all of his creatures equally, thus making him a false God.

Like I said, that's just what my perspective is; it is no way true (seeing as there isn't even proof of a God, or most of the Bible, for that matter), it's just my brain's thinking.

Unless of course, Moses and his clan were not created by God.

 

[JadedIguana]

....Actually, it is widely believed that Angelic Beings had sexors with the women. Those that bore children where Nephilims (Half Human, Half Angel), which are always, always evil. The only way to secure the situation was to kill those that weren't virgins, fore they could not tell if they had or hadn't had teh sexors with Angels. And with the children, fore their taint wouldn't muster for quite some time.

...this is also why the flood was needed.


And men can't have babies sooo.

 

[Feign]

Through my eyes, if God did choose sides, that would make him himself imperfect, because that shows He doesn't love all of his creatures equally, thus making him a false God.

Like I said, that's just what my perspective is; it is no way true (seeing as there isn't even proof of a God, or most of the Bible, for that matter), it's just my brain's thinking.

Unless of course, Moses and his clan were not created by God.

Good point! Why should God play favourites, after all. But playing devil's advocate, what if said pact between God and Moses was absolute, and that God dispised (or w/e better word) anyone that Moses did.

....Actually, it is widely believed that Angelic Beings had sexors with the women. Those that bore children where Nephilims (Half Human, Half Angel), which are always, always evil. The only way to secure the situation was to kill those that weren't virgins, fore they could not tell if they had or hadn't had teh sexors with Angels. And with the children, fore their taint wouldn't muster for quite some time.

...this is also why the flood was needed.

Oo Nephilims? I can't recall that being mentioned in the bible, would it have been there? I know though that Moses' tribe was paganistic though, at one point (probably most likely before the 10 commandments).

 

[Åzurε]

Nephilim are in there, Feign. As for the pagan-ness of the Israelites, it was a cycle. They worship other gods, they get into trouble, they pray to God, he gets them out, they spend a few years following God, they turn away again, etc.

Did anyone here take into consideration the fact that it was Moses orchestrating the entirety of the bold area? Credit where it's due, ya know. As for Bullet's point (heh, Bullet's point), "the wages of sin is death", and "depart from me, for I never knew you." As in, God does not recognize the unholy, as it were, as He does His people. Moses and co. were not created specifically by God, but they did happen to be among the nation God chose as His emissaries to Earth. Still 100% bona-fide humans.

It's funny to me how people pin all this stuff on Christianity, when this was Judaism, the precursor. the Old Testament sets up the New, not the other way around. And Numbers is, if I am not mistaken, in the "Books of History", meaning that this is what happened, not necessarily what should have happened.

 

[Kura]

Uh.. I read that as... kill all the men and women who've been with men to keep the virgins for your own pleasure sort of thing :/

Otherwise.. if the women were the only corrupt ones.. why kill the young boys? ://

That's my interpretation..

I basically agree with Galatea.

 

[Feign]

I believe they killed the young boys, because they were not only from the enemies side, but potentially already "tainted" so to speak...

I chose Christianity, simply because I was more familiar with it, though I do realize that the Jewish tradition does extend to that of the Old Testament.

 

[Kura]

I believe they killed the young boys, because they were not only from the enemies side, but potentially already "tainted" so to speak...

I chose Christianity, simply because I was more familiar with it, though I do realize that the Jewish tradition does extend to that of the Old Testament.

Then why wouldn't he kill himself and his friends if they decided to keep the virgins for themselves and be sexually intimate with them? Wouldn't that therefore taint them?

 

[Feign]

Lol... yeah, that was the bizarre part I read in there... Unless if explicitly meant that they were allowed to do it, and ultimately justify that they themselves would not be tainted.