Debate: How do you feel about abortions?

[Oryx]

I'd like to throw in that I would bet that nobody who supports the bypassing of the parents is actually a parent, as most good parents would see how important it is that they have control over their children when it comes down to it.

Quite frankly, if I had an under 18 child, and she pulled a stunt like that, I'd be hard pressed to ever fully forgive her. At the point she's making controversial decisions like getting pregnant and getting abortions and taking away my control over the matter... I can't express how angry I would be. There would be consequences. Severe consequences. Like house arrest. I'd be getting her professional help straight away, so that we could figure out what's going through her head that makes her think what she is doing is acceptable, because it's not. It's absolutely unacceptable.

...I feel really old, suddenly.

But yeah... this whole bypass the parent thing just screams rebellious adolescent. Children generally aren't fit to be adults, and even if by some stroke of chance they /have/ matured faster than others, it should be up to the adult to decide that, as a child is more likely to have a bias and or not accurately gauge their maturity. It's just not safe or practical to be forcefully giving children the control via the law. If the adult thinks the child is ready, they can give the control on an individual basis. All getting the law involved would do is make the problem worse. Bad parents will be bad parents, but the law is arguably an even worse parent.

Why does it disturb me so much that people actually support such a thing? It really shouldn't, considering how young the demographic here is. <___>; I'm sure people will understand and accept the value better as they grow up.

The problem with that is, while I understand your reasoning behind it and I certainly agree that in no case should the pregnant child be kept away from their parents while they decide what to do, there is also the matter of people under 18 that may be pro-life while their parents want them to get an abortion. Maybe they decide that they want to have the child and live on their own, make it work, but the parents choose abortion because they feel that it's better for their child. In the same vein, if a child doesn't want to have the responsibility of a baby and the parents require them to have it, they'll probably be scarred for life over it. You don't just get over nine months of pain forced on you by your parents, even if you end up giving your child up for adoption afterwards.

While I do believe that parents should be a part of the decision (no way should 15 year olds be out getting abortions without parental notification), I believe the decision itself is the child's. If the parent is responsible, for the most part I believe they would allow that anyway; they would just support their child in any way possible in their decision, despite their anger.

 

[Dawn]

The problem with what you're saying is even if you take away the parent's right to overturn the child's decision, that does not protect them from any way of the parents getting back at them. =/ You see where I'm going with that?

I think the best solution is just to let the parents do their job. I mean, the law isn't going to be able to eliminate bad parents, no matter what you do. That's just a dark fact of life we more or less have to live with. The law isn't going to stop the bad parents from screwing up the child, but it /can/ interfere with good parents doing their job.

In addition... honestly? The whole "What if the parent was pro-life vs pro-choice" thing probably should have been something we thought about before we made abortion legal in the first place. In the end, there's not a whole lot the law can do to protect the children from conflicting extreme parents besides taking the children away from them.
...Oops. =|

 

[Esper]

Waiting periods to get an abortion mean you have to go to a doctor once - which might take a considerable about of time, money, and bravery if it's a place that has protesters outside it - and then leave so you have to do it all over again. How many women are going to be unable to get time away from work, or from families if they have them, to go back a second time (or even the first time)? How many are going to cave to peer pressure from people before waiting limits allow them to have an abortion? That just doesn't seem fair.

Freaky, your suggestion of being able to waive waiting for financial hardship means a woman has to prove she has financial hardship. How exactly would that be done? I can only imagine it would mean getting lots of papers and things to show to some kind of government agency and that would probably take longer than the waiting period. You'd have to know ahead of time that you were intending to get an abortion to have the necessary papers ready. Either that, or you'd have to allow doctors the option to look at whatever papers the woman might have (tax returns, etc.) and make the decision based on that. Doctors shouldn't be in that situation so I can only see hardship waivers as impractical. But the reason behind them remains so the only option left that I see would have to be to remove waiting periods altogether.

And on the topic of rape, if you're one of the people who feel that abortion is permissible in the case of rape then does that mean a woman would have to prove she was raped? What if she were date raped and the rapist claimed it wasn't rape? Would you still be okay with an abortion then? I'm just poking around the topic because rape victims aren't always believed so if laws follow the "only for rape or incest" exception then you could get women who are denied abortions even though they were raped.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

A hot topic in Congress right now is the Republican proposal to defund Planned Parenthood. I oppose this. Instead, we should place restrictions on funding to prohibit federal funds from being used to fund abortion services specifically.

On another note, it seems that Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) believes that Planned Parenthood can cure AIDS. (Watch from 3:15 to 3:42)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVnGqpqNlVE

 

[Everyone Esplode Noaw]

I haven't spoken up yet, so I think I'll do so now. I am not in favor of any abortion at any time, quite frankly. I can see it from both viewpoints, but I can't help but think that maybe, just maybe, that "fetus" could grow up to be the next great president, scientist, or doctor. Depriving that living being of life is depriving the world of potential genius and innovation. But, that's not all. I like to think of it from the hypothetical point of view of the baby in the womb. Yes, baby. I refuse to call even a zygote a fetus as it - in my mind - degrades the life. I wouldn't want to be taken away from this world because my selfish mother or criminal father won't take care of me.

That is all.

 

[Livewire]

I haven't spoken up yet, so I think I'll do so now. I am not in favor of any abortion at any time, quite frankly. I can see it from both viewpoints, but I can't help but think that maybe, just maybe, that "fetus" could grow up to be the next great president, scientist, or doctor. Depriving that living being of life is depriving the world of potential genius and innovation. But, that's not all. I like to think of it from the hypothetical point of view of the baby in the womb. Yes, baby. I refuse to call even a zygote a fetus as it - in my mind - degrades the life. I wouldn't want to be taken away from this world because my selfish mother or criminal father won't take care of me.

That is all.

That is in now way a valid argument, you're basing it all on mere conjecture. The fetus could be born and grow up to be the next anti christ just as easily. You don't know.

 

[The Trotsky]

A hot topic in Congress right now is the Republican proposal to defund Planned Parenthood. I oppose this. Instead, we should place restrictions on funding to prohibit federal funds from being used to fund abortion services specifically.

On another note, it seems that Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) believes that Planned Parenthood can cure AIDS. (Watch from 3:15 to 3:42)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVnGqpqNlVE

Not any worse than Jon Kyl saying 90% of Planned Parenthood work is abortions. lol jk it's around 5%

 

[lx_theo]

Not any worse than Jon Kyl saying 90% of Planned Parenthood work is abortions. lol jk it's around 5%

I found it funnier that he told the media he was lying.

 

[Yuoaman]

It is definitely preferable to have the child never be born than to grow up in poor circumstances, in my opinion. Plus it is in no way similar to murdering a person - it is closer to cooking sunflower seeds rather than planting them.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

It is definitely preferable to have the child never be born than to grow up in poor circumstances, in my opinion. Plus it is in no way similar to murdering a person - it is closer to cooking sunflower seeds rather than planting them.

Sunflower seeds have not been fertilized and are not developing at all. A fetus is. In this case, the decision to plant the seed has already been made and it's already been planted.

 

[Zet]

Abortions are perfectly fine, moral, ethical and perfectly safe. Aborted fetuses lead to stem cells and stem cells lead to helping people, so it's win win.

edit: I really should state my full opinion to this but it's a lot of stuff to go into.

 

[Dawn]

Abortions are perfectly fine, moral, ethical and perfectly safe. Aborted fetuses lead to stem cells and stem cells lead to helping people, so it's win win.

edit: I really should state my full opinion to this but it's a lot of stuff to go into.

I disagree. Clearly not all cases are the same, and from my standpoint there are plenty of times where it can be morally wrong to get an abortion, just like there are times when it is okay. Also, in this context the words moral and ethical are the same. I also think that until science gets an answer to the fundamental humanity of a fetus, there's no real argument for saying whether abortion is "safe" or not. Because clearly if a fetus is human it isn't safe, but if it isn't, it may be.

I also wish to question, is it morally acceptable that we've went ahead and legalized abortion without the proper science to prove that we aren't in fact killing human beings?

I honestly don't think it was right to take that gamble. I think that the very fact we took that gamble without taking the time to find out for sure what we were doing was like shooting into a barrel that may or may not have had a person inside it.

 

[Livewire]

I disagree. Clearly not all cases are the same, and from my standpoint there are plenty of times where it can be morally wrong to get an abortion. Also, in this context the words moral and ethical are the same.

I also wish to question, is it morally acceptable that we've went ahead and legalized abortion without the proper science to prove that we aren't in fact killing human beings?

I honestly don't think it was right to take that gamble. I think that the very fact we took that gamble without taking the time to find out for sure what we were doing was like shooting into a barrel that may or may not have had a person inside it.

What is "Moral" or "Ethical" is entirely subjective and esoteric.

And we're not "killing" human beings. An abortion terminates an unwanted pregnancy.

Also, It's unconstitutional to ban abortions, that's why Roe passed.

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

[Eliterazor]

Teenage pregnancy is increasing rapidly, abortion is a great option for many people. Though it does have a lot of ethical issues, emotional issues and just a sad overlook on 'killing life' as people say. I personally think that abortion should be a last resort, I mean heck, if your mother tossed you away as a fetus I wouldn't think you'd like it too much. Of course, if it's rape or cheap condoms I guess there's really no fault to the mother.

 

[FreakyLocz14]

What is "Moral" or "Ethical" is entirely subjective and esoteric.

And we're not "killing" human beings. An abortion terminates an unwanted pregnancy.

Also, It's unconstitutional to ban abortions, that's why Roe passed.

"nor shall any State deprive any person of life"

I rest my case.

 

[Steven]

"nor shall any State deprive any person of life"

I rest my case.

Whether or not a fetus is a person is opinion, and opinion has no place in law.

I rest my case.

 

[Livewire]

"nor shall any State deprive any person of life"

I rest my case.

"A person", not a fetus.

Kinda funny how the Government can, and does, deprive a person of life. Capital punishment says hi.

 

[Dawn]

What is "Moral" or "Ethical" is entirely subjective and esoteric.

And we're not "killing" human beings. An abortion terminates an unwanted pregnancy.

Also, It's unconstitutional to ban abortions, that's why Roe passed.

We as a culture and a community look down on the killing of non-felons as a majority. Subjectivity was already taken into account. It is also only unconstitutional if we can prove the science behind saying a fetus is not a human being.

...And so far, we haven't done that even by today's standards. I'm not saying abortion is necessarily wrong, (Because I think I've argued that as far as I can possibly can.) I'm just saying that I think it was wrong that we acted before we knew for sure, and that it bothers me that we still don't know. I /want/ to know. I want that answer, badly. It would put a true end to the bulk of this controversy.

 

[Oryx]

We as a culture and a community look down on the killing of non-felons as a majority. Subjectivity was already taken into account. It is also only unconstitutional if we can prove the science behind saying a fetus is not a human being.

...And so far, we haven't done that even by today's standards. I'm not saying abortion is necessarily wrong, (Because I think I've argued that as far as I can possibly can.) I'm just saying that I think it was wrong that we acted before we knew for sure, and that it bothers me that we still don't know. I /want/ to know. I want that answer, badly. It would put a true end to the bulk of this controversy.

The problem is, even if we say we know what makes a human, why should others believe us? If a few scientists came out and said "A human isn't a human until it has fingers", would you believe them? It's not that things haven't been scientifically proven. We know what happens when in a fetus' development. We just can't agree on what parts of a fetus make it into a human being, heartbeat, brain function, independence, response to stimuli, etc. There's no way to scientifically prove that, it's all just mutually agreed-upon speculation and that's what makes it so difficult.

 

[Dawn]

The problem is, even if we say we know what makes a human, why should others believe us? If a few scientists came out and said "A human isn't a human until it has fingers", would you believe them? It's not that things haven't been scientifically proven. We know what happens when in a fetus' development. We just can't agree on what parts of a fetus make it into a human being, heartbeat, brain function, independence, response to stimuli, etc. There's no way to scientifically prove that, it's all just mutually agreed-upon speculation and that's what makes it so difficult.

Um... nothing /has/ been proven, unless you plan on showing the evidence. See, there are actual rules that say a random scientist cannot just say stuff like that without making a fool out of themselves and probably ruining their reputation. They need to run a study that gives actual conclusive evidence, and have at least a fairly reputable background in order to be accepted. Even then, people are going to try and reproduce their evidence. If they can't, then that person is in trouble. TL;DR, that isn't how it works.

Also, frankly, there will always be a minority that refuses to believe. Keyword, minority. People as a whole will not simultaneously say screw you science when it stops agreeing with them. Some of them will change, and that will be all it takes to change the world.