• Just a reminder that providing specifics on, sharing links to, or naming websites where ROMs can be accessed is against the rules. If your post has any of this information it will be removed.
  • Ever thought it'd be cool to have your art, writing, or challenge runs featured on PokéCommunity? Click here for info - we'd love to spotlight your work!
  • It's time to vote for your favorite Pokémon Battle Revolution protagonist in our new weekly protagonist poll! Click here to cast your vote and let us know which PBR protagonist you like most.
  • Welcome to PokéCommunity! Register now and join one of the best fan communities on the 'net to talk Pokémon and more! We are not affiliated with The Pokémon Company or Nintendo.
    Register

Discussion of the Week: Are HMs important?

Aside from tradition, these kinds of obstacles in RPGs were introduced due to a combination of existing
limitations and a need to control game progression/sequence.
In that sense, they are nothing more than items or "conditions" disguised as Pokemon moves.

You need X to make it through Y.

The problem starts to show when you have to remove one of your Pokemon moves in order
to accommodate these HMs. This can be easily solved by having any obtained
HM/Item/Power/Whatever automatically activate, without teaching it, as long as
compatible Pokemon exist in your party.

So you want to smash that rock? If you fulfill the conditions, (e.g. Gym Badge) go there
press A, and a question pops up: "Do you want to have XPokemon smash the rock?"

That way you still have these "special moves" that Pokemon use to help humans,
and they stay away from your... aspiring competitive moveset.

So, the answer is: they're okay as long as the developers use them properly.
 
I think the way to overcome the fact that the HM move is taking up a move slot, but still use it's benefit in overworld interaction is to:

1. Include a move deleter in every town
2. Include a move rememberer in every town

I think this is a good solution.
 
Since Ruby and Sapphire came out I've always thought why can't we have an additional move slot for over world interaction that can't be used in battle, so then you have to weigh up whether or not to use a HM such as surf in battle or have it set as an over world move.

I'm glad that this a similar idea played out with the page ride in the newer games.
 
Last edited:
I don't think they're needed at all.

Just make everything you can't reach by a certain point surrounded by water (Surf is at least a good move) or just don't have them interactive until a later part in the story, ie what GTA did, finally, with V. You can access the whole map, but stuff to do in them doesn't actually happen until you progress through the story.

If they have to have them, go back to my first idea at least make them ALL moves people don't mind using.
Right now people only care about Surf or Waterfall, with Fly being somewhere in the middle.

The others are just simply terrible by every definition.
 
HMs have always bugged me, mostly because most of them just arn't very good moves. Surf and Fly are excellent (though the former sucks if you've got a Water type with poor SA, like Gyarados), Strength and Waterfall quite good (but there's no point having both WF and Surf), but then you have the thoroughly mediocre Cut and Rock Smash and the virtually useless Flash. And I can't even remember whether Rock Climb or Dive were any good. Yes, you can use HM Slaves and the Move Deleter, but it all still results in having a sub-par team for large swathes of the game, and often having to miss out on good moves learnt through level-up because the slot was taken up by bloody Cut or something. It's particularly frustrating during something like fighting Red in the original Gold and Silver games - in a fight where you want to have the most optimal team possible, you have to have Flash, and at least two or three other HMs, just to even reach him.

I have no idea if this is feasable or not to implement in a hack, but what I always wanted to see future Pokemon games do was essentially seperate the in-battle element of a HM from the out-of-battle element. So, when you teach a HM to a Pokemon, it gets the ability to fly or carry you across water or move rocks or whatever, but doesn't learn a new move. Meanwhile, the actual moves are just regular TMs or moves learnt in battle, with either the HM ability or the move being renamed.

I suppose Sun & Moon already more-or-less did this with the Pokerides, but - while they were certainly a a big improvement over HMs - I think they really missed a trick by not letting you ride Pokemon on your team.

What I've seen some hacks do is just up the power of the less useful HMs to make the slots they take up seem less wasted. Some have also changed the typing - ie. making Cut a grass-type move. That seems the most elegant solution if you want to makes HMs more viable without putting too much work in.

(Incidentally, while we're talking about altering and/or renaming HMs, one thing I'd like to see in a future Pokemon game is changing Teleport to function like Fly, with Fly working like riding on Latios in ORAS.)
 
Last edited:
I understand that they can be extremely useful as gatekeepers that will stop you from going to the route you should not be going yet, and I understand that for some people it's an awesome thing that your Pokemon help you advance even out of battle, but Gen 7 created an amazing thing that combined those two features, along with the "a tool to find secret / or not accessable items) with Poke Ride. It's why a lot of people love those. Also, a "device" that could operate all the HM moves could be a replacement, but it leaves Pokemon off the table.

But, come to think of it, I don't have any experience when it comes to "adding something new" to the games, but I would think that in terms of coding this must be a hard task to accomplish, probably even impossible. It was in the last generation's mechanics after all, so either there should be an alternative, or improved/better versions of HMs.

As a person who doesn't like HMs, they are not much of a problem if you minimize them/make the actual moves "useful" and give an ability to forget them easily. Surf, Fly even Waterfall. I don't feel bad when I teach Surf to my SpA-based water pokemon, or to my Helioptile as a coverage, but Rock Smash, Cut etc. are inefficient in the long turn. I don't think anyone would prefer using Cut in any other way than passing a block to collect an item or continue the journey. A world without HMs would be stale for some people. I love it when I fly with my Talonflame instead of an airplane. Keeping only the useful HMs is not a good option either, because "usefulness" is an objective term. A person could rather Hydro Pump, or use Brave Bird/Acrobatics instead of 2-turn Fly. The best suggestion would be, as MegaWeedle said, HMs being out-of-battle moves.

In this case, they can either be learnt like usual HMs, or make some Pokemon already have the ability to cut a tree instead of requiring the move "Cut"to do so. When it comes to their obtaining those, it could be "teach" from experienced trainers all over the world instead of giving you a HM. For example, you have a level 9 Scyther who has arms suiting the cutting, but it won't cut unless you know how to cut trees by commanding/using your Pokemon. After you learn something about that, or even get an item in shape of book etc. for that, all the Pokemon that can learn Cut as a HM will be able to cut that tree.

As I said, I don't know if it's possible or not, but it would be a dream thing for me. I would even be happy if that was the case in Switch game. Seeing this in a hacked rom would make it unique, and I'd definitely start playing it.

Otherwise, just make HM's forgettable and TM's reusable. So you can change a move to HM and TM when necessary, which saves a lot.
 
Seff said:
Otherwise, just make HM's forgettable and TM's reusable. So you can change a move to HM and TM when necessary, which saves a lot.
Click to expand...

They've basically done that already, just not the easy to forget bits. There's literally no purpose in keeping that. It's just a way to piss everyone off.

Keep trade restrictions in place (ie, you can't send over HMs to ruin someone's game), but there's literally no reason why HMs can't be easily forgotten like any other move. Literally none, apart from just being an intentional inconvenience.

I personally think that's why they're so hated. If they were just regular moves, I think a lot of people would be more accepting.
 
Last edited:
HMs fell into "tradition" and got progressively more irritating over time. They're not a bad system inherently but Game Freak did not use them well =_= Having just finished PMD Red, I love the way they were implemented in that, where you just have to hold the item in your inventory. It seemed like a very good compromise.

I always thought HM moves might benefit from "level scaling", where a move like Cut could gain 1 BP every level, to a maximum of 90 BP at level 50 or something, so that it remains usable for the player throughout the game and not just dead weight. It still wouldn't be the best move but for single player it would be acceptable.
 
TaviTurnip said:
I always thought HM moves might benefit from "level scaling", where a move like Cut could gain 1 BP every level, to a maximum of 90 BP at level 50 or something, so that it remains usable for the player throughout the game and not just dead weight. It still wouldn't be the best move but for single player it would be acceptable.
Click to expand...
This is something really creative and I absolutely love this idea. Time to figure out how to do that!
 
I am starting development on a new fan game and I am looking at adding a "learned" ability to handle HM's.
 
Kapreece said:
I am starting development on a new fan game and I am looking at adding a "learned" ability to handle HM's.
Click to expand...

Learned? As in, once they learn it, even if they forget it via move deleter, they are still able to perform the task?
 
Disturbed said:
Learned? As in, once they learn it, even if they forget it via move deleter, they are still able to perform the task?
Click to expand...

The HM will not be a move that they learn, rather it acts as a secondary ability the trainer teaches the Pok?mon. The ability won't affect battling.
 
(Not responding to anyone in particular, just throwing this out there)

I really don't like the idea of making HM's items or even the way Gen VII dealt with PokeRide. I acknowledge this solves many of the issues with HM's but it removes their strategic element in teambuilding/prepping for excursions and relegates them to just simple yes/no gateways that keep you from progressing. Once you acquire the item/PokeRide for a particular obstacle, every single one of that type of obstacle opens up and you no longer have to think about them ever again.

Here's another thought: what if the overworld HM effects were spread to more moves? For example, let's say you could Cut trees with any of a host of cutting-style moves: Cut, Slash, Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Leaf Blade, Air Cutter, etc. And the same idea for the other moves. This way you could solve the problem of teambuilding restrictions by opening up more workable combinations, and solve the problem of HM's forcing you to keep bad moves.

The "learned but non-battle moves" idea is also really intriguing, and I like Mana's terminology of "skills".
 
HMs had their purpose as a means of limiting progression over time but the way they were implemented is troublesome. They take up move slots, can only be used by certain Pokemon, and are hard to get rid of.

I would like to see a system similar to Z moves. For instance, if your Pokemon has a water move, you can use the "HM ring" and use the relevant HMs (surf, waterfall). And so on. Or maybe there is another limit of some kind (for instance strength can only be used if that pokemon has over 150 attack, or whatever).

It makes no sense to limit certain moves to HMs, any pokemon can push a rock...many pokemon can cut things...and so on.
 
Additionally, making HMs in-battle moves always wound up creating some bizarre Story/Gameplay Segregation issues. With some HMs - surf, waterfall, rock climb - the out of battle ability was just completely different from the actual attack. Surf, especially. Out of battle, you are swimming across water. In battle, you're sending a gigantic wave of water at the enemy, presumably from the Pokemon's mouth or back cannons or whatever. They are two entirely separate things.
 
Last edited:
Gen 7 introduced Poke Ride abilities as a replacement for HMs in the sense that certain areas cannot be accessed until the Ride ability is obtained. I like this, as the ride abilities are varied, pretty fun to use, and are always accessible.

The ability to always access ride pokemon is a big improvement over HMs, where if you're exploring but forgot to bring your Rock Smash pokemon, you have to go all the way back to a PC, teach a party member a suboptimal move, or drop a slot or two in your party to make room for HM slaves.

That being said, the later pokemon games have a lot more "this area is blocked off for arbitrary reasons" excuses, with the Rotom Dex constantly yammering (and marking) specifically where to go. As a result, the "directing" is much more conspicuous, which I think detracts from the immersion aspect of these games.
 
I want to share my opinion by saying that HMs (with the exception of Surf and Waterfall) have been nothing but IRRITATING whenever I play any Pokémon game, hacks included. I'm mainly talking about hacks with PSS Split.

Sure, they are important keys to let progress further into the story. But... that's it. Take a look low power, no status effects, and worst of all: unforgettable. It's a pain to destroy your Pokémon's beloved moveset/team building until late-game just because of these HMs. Even worse, when you progress through the story thinking you don't need cut anymore, BAM! there's a tree.

Strength? Why not just remove Body Slam and give Strength a paralysis effect? Cut? Make it Slash/Shadow Claw/ Psycho Cut or whatever that doesn't destroy a good moveset. Flash..... yea let's pretend that doesn't exist. Rock Smash? Um, what about Brick Break or Drain Punch or any other non-elemental punches? Fly? SHADOW FORCE!

I've seen some decent hacks making HMs less useless (God bless Doesntknowhowtoplay for making Strength a 100 BP move) but... when you look at this "improved" HMs and look at other TMs, you'll end with the TMs too.

Oh, and Fly. Yeah, giving Teleporters in every town that lets you revisit the places you have done exploring is MAGICAL.

Solution? Use TMs or much more preferably, Move Tutors that teach you useful moves (not TMs or HMs) e.g. Psyshock to make you progress through the game. Isn't that way better?
 
They are important, regardless of what form they come in (items, moves, rideable pokemon, something else unique). However I think it is possible to limit the players progression without HMs in the game. I do think that it needs to be completely flawless though or the game will be bashed for not using some form of HMs.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top