Do you think the writers and the (dub) actors are incompetent?

[weedle_mchairybug]

Im of belief how value and importance of character isn't and should not be measured by how much someone does,

But in what he does and how much his presence embellish structure of anime, character interactions and overall plot. Impacting series in general with his antics, interests in life and various characteristics unique to him. Something Misty imo fulfilled quite nicely leaving big influence on plot and characters.

Btw overall Iris while may have got more focus on her dragon master dream, still received less focus and development than Misty had if you ask me. By character development im referring to changes in someone personality and attitude, external impacts, persons and obstacles left on someone causing him/her to change, improve and learn on past mistakes. Get over his emotional struggles and build himself as character.

Yeah, agreed overall. In fact, Misty's actions in Kanto had a huge impact on Ash's journey as well, either at the very least ensuring he got to a gym (the Cinnabar arc comes to mind), or even saving his life (first episode, St. Anne arc, and the like), even both (the first two movies came to mind). In fact, there were plenty of things that, had it not been for Misty, things would have gone to heck. Sure, maybe she didn't have a named goal until Johto (though to be fair, at least Misty's Water Pokémon Master goal was hinted at in Kanto anyways due to her insistence of getting water types or at least pokemon that drink water in the case of Oddish).

I can't speak for Iris, as I've never actually seen her in action (and while I could reasonably conclude from some people's statements of her that she was not a Hina character, I can't actually say whether this was truly the case or not, though she's more likely than May and Dawn to not be that).

I dont see it that way. Original series stick much less to frames dictated by games unlike it was case with following generations. Aside from gym leaders not many characters from games were included with most characters we saw in Kanto and Johto being mostly anime exclusive, interpretations coming from writers mind.

Yeah, true. You'd be hard pressed to find anything in the Gen I games that actually matches up with the anime, even in Yellow, the closest thing to an actual game adaptation of the anime. Not to mention, unlike in most future series (Diamond and Pearl and XY come to mind, the former having badge indents in the badge case that all but preclude any chance at actually going for any badges save for the ones that match the badges, meaning that despite what Palmer stated, Ash literally had no choice but to go to Sunyshore City, and the latter had a restriction on how many gym badges Ash must obtain to even access the gym, as evidenced by the first episode of XY), not only did Ash actually have the choice to go for badges that aren't the standard eight, he actually DID go in an order that was unlike that of the games (as Sabrina and Erika's positions were swapped in the Anime), and in fact was the only region to have him do an order fully independently from the games (DP doesn't count, as he was following the Diamond & Pearl games order of accomplishing Gyms, and by the time he got to Faustina, Platinum was released meaning it was far too late to change it to match the order established in Platinum due to that game switching Faustina's order with her preceding GLs).

We had in general more of anime only mini side stories and arcs such as island of Giant pokemon, Whirl islands, side story with Sabrina, episodes dealing with abnormal pokemon (Tentacruel, Gengar, Alakazam) wanting to wreck whole world, mischief pokemon which supplied anime with various unique running gags which embellished series appeal making it more memorable and fun to follow. Whether we are talking about Jigglypuff, Snubull or Delibird.

Yeah, a lot of episodes that actually expanded on Pokemon beyond what is typically known from the games.

There was whole anime only region in form of Orange Islands with gym leaders, league, champion , even challenges Ash had to pass in gyms being completely product of writers imagination tailoring anime to their own needs and desires.

Agreed with that. The only other time we got an actual anime-only region (As Battle Frontier doesn't qualify as not only was the Battle Frontier something from the games, but it was situated in Kanto in the anime version instead of near Hoenn like in the games) was the Decolore Islands from Best Wishes, and overall the region, references to Ash's Butterfree aside, was completely pointless as there wasn't even anything for Ash to actually do that would make it mean anything. At least Orange Islands had Ash competing in a gym, league, and fighting the champion, even if it was largely ignored in future seasons.

With things not being subjected as much to game quests, game characters and plots or pokemon at that time. Which are much more prevalent with exploitment of their personalities and motives nowadays than humans themselves.

Yeah, agreed with that. Otherwise, Giovanni would not be the Team Rocket leader anymore, Ash would be infiltrating the Rocket base underneath Celadon City's Game Corner, plus with the Lavender Tower he'd actually be facing Team Rocket rather than simply ghost hunting for fighting Sabrina in a rematch, he'd quell an intrusion in Silph Co. by Team Rocket (heck, Silph Co. would have an actual role instead of merely a convenient way for Team Rocket to lure Ash and co. into a trap with a warp panel), and Ash would have actually fought Giovanni at the Viridian Gym, not Team Rocket as usual (even though I will admit they actually were dangerous that time around). And that's just with the first gen. Second gen, he'd probably would either be king of Mt. Silver or otherwise if he took over Gold's position fighting Team Rocket's Slowpoketail operation and the Radio Tower incident. In fact, pretty much the only real major plotpoint from Generation II that actually was covered in the anime was the Red Gyarados incident.

In comparison in original series from Kanto to end of Johto it was other way around with development of characters and friendship coming in first plan making me believe original cast in general had closer bond and friendship than any other cast which came later.
As such its not hard to notice how there existed interchangeable communication between all characters in main cast with no one ending neglected having their moments of annoyance, happiness, talks about their own dreams and issues but lighthearted jokes as well promoting friendship between protagonists which grow forward when exploring world in evoking, memorable manner.

Yeah, we definitely got a lot more development from the characters and wasn't merely goal oriented. I mean, don't get me wrong, actually focusing on a goal is very important, but it shouldn't be at the expense of character development. Not to mention they actually treated their girl like an actual character rather than merely someone to fap at (this is no joke, as even the ex-storyboard director mentioned they created May and Dawn specifically because they viewed the girls as eyecandy), which is especially fortunate considering that it otherwise would have given a lot of negative implications of peddling child porn, and the sexual fanservice was actually kept to a bare minimum, unlike AG where they if anything they increased the fanservice not only in frequency, but even in terms of crassness (May stripping on the beach and putting a bikini on offscreen comes to mind).

Fact how writers followed games to much smaller degree back than often adding their own touch to episodes and stories they came up with brought more originality and unpredictability in this show since it didn't followed repetitive formula not being set up in advance what to expect next increasing people eagerness to stay tuned and see what will happen next. Which they succeed in to higher degree than its case nowadays with series formula and way things will be pan out being much more formulaic accompanied with various rehashes of what was seen numerous times before.

Yeah agreed, especially when there's little point in watching in half an hour something we can do on the games on our own free time.

Moreover this doesn't just applies to Kanto and Orange Islands. But Johto as well because it was treated like direct sequel to what was established before. There were no new starts, regressions etc with Ash , Misty and Brock continuing from where they stopped. Building up on their team and skills as trainer, as well building up on friendship becoming more familiar and recognized with each other flaws with chemistry taking more mature spin to it.

Yeah, not to mention Ash actually increasing in rank in Johto, which hadn't even been accomplished until DP, ironically due to their failing to end the show due to wasting time. There was actually quite a bit of development in those episodes, and several of the Johto episodes not only were entertaining, but actually had a point, and the Gym Leaders still actually seemed like they could be taken seriously (really, other than Roarke and Brawley, name me one Gym Leader from AG onwards who actually seemed like he or she was not a JJM clone in terms of skills or lack thereof?). Probably the only real flaw I can list is that Brock didn't actually pursue his goal as a Pokémon Breeder. Even Misty at least pursued her goal of becoming a Water Pokémon Master.

There were lot of throwbacks to Kanto in appearances of Koga sister Aya, photohgrapher Todd, Duplica, Suzie etc. filling that saga with lot of continuity keeping ties with past(like proper anime should do to making story stronger that way) and many of episodes like "Just Waiting for a Friend", "For Crying Out Loud", "Fortune Hunters", "Forest Grumps" etc still contained certain level of darker, mysterious and expressive style first two seasoins had with Brock eccentric nature, Ash goofiness and Misty tender,sarcastic and hotheaded side. Promoting together sense of world building, strong unbreakable bonds friendship can create between people and excitement through never knowing what to expect during their voyage.

Yeah, agreed, and I can attest to that statement as well from actually watching some of those episodes during the CN run back when DP was around the corner.

That level of maturity, emotion and unorthodox writing style can still be found in several Johto episodes such as "Just Waiting on a Friend", "Fortune Hunters", "Ignorance is Blissey", "Unbearable", "Beauty and a Breeder", "For Crying Out Loud", "Will Real prof. Oak Show Up" and several others.

Creative writing would work in many ways. And honestly, it's better to have a loose adaptation of something that is at least cleverly written than to have a straight up adaptation that's wooden. That being said, it shouldn't deviate too much from the source material, which fortunately the original series didn't deviate too much from its source material.

Johto often receives lot of flack, with people developing misconception how it was just one big bag full of "fillers". Not bothering to watch whole saga through. To realize for themselves how many of episodes they dismissed as "irrelevant" contained actual character development, evolutions and captures, throwbacks to past and storyline which foreshadowed future events(one of examples being "Ring Masters" where Ash won Kings Rock foreboding Misty Poliwhirl evolution later on).

Yeah, agreed, not to mention Ash actually increased in rank in Johto, and not only did much better overall and actually settled his rivalry with Gary Oak, but unlike in Indigo, Ash actually lost gracefully and fairly, instead of losing thanks to Team Rocket sabotaging his match and not waiting until AFTER Ash fought in the match to kidnap Pikachu and the officials at the league being too stupid to realize that such an event would mean they'd need to postpone the match so Ash's Pokemon actually have a chance at recovering instead of, you know, starting the match before Ash had a chance to recover or even explain his side of the story. There was plenty that was done in that series that are overlooked and even falsely defined as "filler." If anything, AG came across as being closer to being just one big bag full of "fillers" because, honestly, other than Pokemon Captures, what did AG have that actually set it apart from any other series and actually made it important, especially when Ash retained the exact same rank as in Johto, not advancing at all nor decreasing in rank, meaning effectively the entire Hoenn region was skippable, and the Battle Frontier arc basically got largely ignored by DP save for Brandon's reappearance. Even the debut of Contests in the series doesn't cut it, especially when they replaced May with Dawn for something they could have easily just had May go to Sinnoh for (not to mention was an extremely overrated goal anyways especially considering that the games don't even place even half as much emphasis on them regarding the plot and were at best a sidequest if even that).

Pokemon anime in general followed different formula back than where exploration of character personalities, friendship, adventure aspect and emotional aspects of life had bigger priority than battling, pokemon training and focus on character careers. Hence being one of primary reasons behind Misty storyline not being explored as much as it could have been. It wasn't only reason because writing also took step for worse in Johto during middle of sagaswith things not starting to pick up until Master Quest,. But it was one of them.

Yeah, agreed, and even the middle of Johto wasn't even that bad. I'd know from watching some bits of the middle of Johto during that weekend marathon a few years ago. Not to mention even the worst of Johto wasn't fillers, and certainly wasn't as bad as future shows where they focus more on making them close adaptations at the expense of character development.

Not quite, i believe Misty purpose went beyond simple token girl which served as stabilizer in main cast of not having just cast made of males.

Yeah, not to mention Misty, unlike May and Dawn at least, actually was different than most anime girls in that she wasn't a Hina stereotype. May and Dawn, even with their goals, came across far closer than Misty did to being actual simple token girls (heck, the ex-storyboard director even shamelessly admitted it).

Sure you could say coordinators like May and Dawn had their own rivals, better expanded dreams and more focus on progress made in their careers.
But way i see it Misty arguably brought just as much on table, if not even more than other girls did since she beside her plots and story directly influenced plot of main protagonist and story of this anime in general. She served as catalyst through which Ash developed as trainer helping him to stand on two feet when starting out, often saved his and other people lives, took initiative in her hands preventing natural disasters caused by pokemon or human factor. Played fun subrole in many episodes bringing strong identity and charisma through her string presence not being dependent on structured plots like contests to give viewer impression that someone is active.
Along with having strongest personality out of all female companions imo bringing lot pf sarcasm, clash, comedy and conflict in main cast with her dreaming and romantic side adding extra flavor to group dynamics providing anime with extra twist through her insecure and shy outbursts not being your typical tsundere you can see on daily basis in other cartoons.

Yeah, not to mention actually saved Ash's life and journey more than a few times. And hey, she had a goal that was focused on, even in Johto. Sure, it may not have been trinkets yet, but had they had her stay on, they definitely could have come up with actual trinkets for her to collect for her goal. At least her goal actually got more focus than Brock's breeder goal did even before Johto. Let's face it, other than the Breeder convention, his meeting Suzie, his nursing Togepi's egg, possibly even the Stantler episode, when exactly did Brock do anything that even pertained to his goal? Heck, it's even worse with Johto due to that region actually introducing it in the games.

While having her motives and desires, quest of becoming water master, versatile and interesting line up of pokemon she collected during travels,sad and easy to relate background which greatly shaped in what person she became and development .

Yeah, agreed with that.

Which i can say turned out to be female protagonist whose personality and emotional growth was much, much bigger than Dawn or Iris had(goal development isn't same as character, personality development) with travels, struggles and experuence she gained affecting her just as much as it did May.

Yeah, and unlike May, Misty's friendship with Ash actually was shown to be strong (since May left Ash and the group in a heartbeat with zero hesitation or reluctance to abandon her friends. Even her brother actually cared for his friends than May did since he was pretty much the only one of the main cast who actually DID have hesitance towards the group separating). Not to mention May was actually shown to be a huge coward in the Manaphy movie when she basically let Phantom get away with it (and I do mean coward because she actually could do something about it, like sic her Squirtle at him instead of just standing there and letting Phantom kidnap Manaphy and get away with it). Had Misty been the one who got Manaphy, I guarantee that she would have made sure she got Manaphy back without relying on SSJ Ash (my name for Ash endowed with the Sea Crown energies for obvious reasons) to do the deed.

Regardless of Misty own dreams and aspirations being ignored for good chunk of time.

Yeah, and I wouldn't even say they're that ignored, as she at least captured Pokemon that were Water-Types, focused on Water Pokemon-related events and all of that. Brock's goal seemed to be more ignored.

Result of Johto subpar writing had hardly much to do with Misty presence as main girl though.

Problems related to how this saga was written go much deeper and beyond than who was in main cast.,

Yeah, and it also speaks volumes when Johto actually proved to have better ratings than AG, DP, or especially BW, possibly even XY.

Being result of: -writers inexperience never writing for long sagas wich last for 3 or 4 years having big problem with proper pacing and structure of story,

Yeah, and then they went the easy way out with AG onward by making direct copies of the games plots, and relying on tried-and-true (and offensive) stereotypes for female characters (exempting Iris and possibly Selena, and they're in the gray area) and cynically thinking that just making her a pretty face, sexual fanservice icon, and shallow would sell well without actually putting in the work to actually developing said characters to be very respectable. Of my times at AWA, I only recall this year having even one May cosplayer. Every year, most of the cosplayers, assuming they aren't cosplaying as the Gen V girl, were cosplaying as Misty. That alongside Misty actually having a Wikipedia article speaks volumes about how popular, notable, and well-received she is compared to the other female leads.

Before Masuada's cynical attempt at thinking eyecandy is what makes a female character rather than, you know, actual character (yes, even May wasn't really that well developed, rack aside, compared to Misty, though she certainly was more developed compared to Dawn), probably the only time something even loosely related to the Anime subjected a girl to fanservice only and was more cynical and adult overall was Takeshi Ono's Electric of Pikachu manga, and even he at least had the decency to age Misty up to 12 years old (granted, it's not really that decent since it's still not really good for her to be subject to hentai-style fanservice, but at least she was closer to a teen than Anime Misty).

-drop of main driving force justifying Ash and co trip to Johto in first place(GS ball). Plot which supposed to turn in big storyline involving Celebii with Ash, Misty and Brock playing major part according to original plans. Losing their sense of direction and hitting brick wall after msain plan was abandoned not having backup plan developed until late 4th season, beginning of Master Quest which was heavily plot centric and filled with lot of character development.

Yeah, and that wasn't even necessarily the writers fault so much as being forced to not use it thanks to the Celebi movie for no real reason (it's not like they couldn't simply reference the events of the main anime in the film. The First Pokemon Movie, after all, directly referenced the events of The Battle of the Badge and Showdown of Poke-Corral in the opener. Granted, that was thanks to the Porygon incident more than anything else, but even still...).

-head writer at that time Takeshi Shudo often getting in disagreements with other members of writing staff and pokemon directors(chief director was and still is Yuyana Kunihiko, while anime director was i presume Masamitsu Hidaka)and certain member of staff called Omae Sama rejecting his plans and ideas how series should be written.

Yeah, we in the US had something similar happen with Toy Story when Jeffrey Katzenberg basically demanded that Woody have a more adult, cynical edge, which nearly ruined the film and shut down its production, even ripping all of Pixar's notes apart when demanding the cynical route.

His train of thought was very different from other writers wanting to bring new level of innovation and creativity in story. He even stated in his blogs how he decided to create somewhat complex characters which to extent he succeeded in introducing main protagonists and TR, but due to marketing constraints and disputes with director he was never allowed to take them through deeper, more challenging development. Or take series story in entirely new direction treating it as cohesive on going adventure where each main character plays criucial role in trying to accomplish some bigger scope in journey aside from pursuing their dreams.

Yeah, and the show ultimately is suffering for this if the ratings are anything to go by. And Misty's removal actually proved to be detrimental to the show in the long term.

One of examples i brought up originally in this thread was intention for third pokemon movie containing real prehystoric T-rex revived from petrified fossils. He desired to add more realism to pokemon world (because references to real animals happened at times like ordinary fish or even dog being showed). Bringing new dimension to story perhaps better explaining pokemon origins and how pokemon came to planet earth. Now that i think about it that sounds like great material for some very fascinating and more profound plot.

Yeah, and it actually made the show more believable in terms of the plot (though I personally viewed Poke-Earth as being more like Corneria from Star Fox, another compelling story). Instead, the writers simply got cynical with their audiences, which resulted in a lot of the show's quality declining (and believe me, it's still a mystery as to how they could actually get away with May stripping naked in public offscreen, or having Max and Brock staring at May's butt in an incredibly obvious and crass manner) and alienating even their intended target audience, to say less about their loyal base. BW is probably the worst of it.

But in end mr. Shudo vision of treating pokemon series as more family oriented show with some depth behind it was stopped in halt by higher staff members with marketing taking priority over original, well written storyline.

Yes, and while they did manage to do it somewhat right with DP (as they did at least introduce Paul), AG and BW suffered from this decision, and it shows in the ratings, even DP still sank like rocks.

So you see Misty presence hardly has anything to do with possible drop in quality. Although i still am of belief how Master Quest should be evaluated separately being very enjoyable season filled with action, character development and story going fiorward. With Misty being more enjoyable and having actual, importance there.

Agreed with that. Heck, I wouldn't even say Misty was even treated all that badly even in mid-Johto. Brock was the one who got shafted the most, and this was despite Gold and Silver actually introducing the breeding element.

Number of fillers decreased significantly, Misty and Brock received more focus, there were several arcs introduced which contributed to current plot(Like not just Whirl Cup, but whole Whirl Islands which were basically Misty centric, Red Gyarados, Lugia, Larvitar etc), gym leaders were depicted in better light (like Pryce and his past or Clair which pulled with itself mini arc about Dragonite) group pokemon started to gain better development along with Johto Silver Conference being one of best leagues we ever had.

Yeah, I agree overall, especially considering how Johto did end with a bang. And I wouldn't even say mid-Johto even had that many fillers, as even that had actual character development, captures, expanding on some elements, training, and all of that, to say less about the gym battles. Not to mention Ash actually settled his rivalry with Gary, and unlike back in the Indigo league, not only did he increase in rank, he actually lost honorably instead of it being forced on him due to circumstances far beyond his control.

May did changed alot emotionally, i can give you that. In growing to like pokemon, becoming less silly and dizzy in behavior compared to early, mid Hoenn becoming more confident, mature and collected as girl realizing what she wants from life and how to get there. Making me kinda proud how much she grew compared to her rookie days.

Yeah, unfortunately they actually had her cry for losing the second time out of anguish, even though she actually got a better rank than before, and the Manaphy movie showed her to be a coward. I mean, it's one thing if she literally had no way to save Manaphy at all, but she had Squirtle, and thus could have easily used that to stop Phantom, so her not doing anything even when it actually was in her ability to do so simply due to fear does indeed merit her as a huge coward. Oh, and basically abandoning her friends without even a second thought and in an instant for Johto. At least Misty, Max, heck, even Dawn cared enough for Ash to actually have some hesitance in leaving Ash to pursue their own dreams. And either way it was still nothing like Misty's development, which was needlessly severed and they didn't even let her go on her own journey.

But Dawn? While she may have grew alot as coordinator, thats not same as emotional, personality growth.
I often felt that she didn't changed as person enough to match her struggles, effort and improvement as coordinator which would mold and leave bigger impact on her characterization taking away from depth of her story arc.

Being by end of journey just as girly, optimistic and interested in fashion or appearance like she was at start. Not saying she was exactly same because she went from overconfident to confident and became abit more humble after depression stereak she wen t through. But compared to other girls when comparing each of them from start to end of region/cameos Dawn changed the least giving out impression how she stagnated in that sense. At least in my opinion it seemed that way.,

Agreed wholeheartedly. Though I'd personally rank May the same way as well.

With Misty most, if not all character development she experienced was in maturing in personality, emotional aspect. Its not very hard to deduce how when looking at Misty character from early Kanto days and during chronicles, Hoenn appearances this character went through some serious and highly notable changes and growth.

Yeah, agreed with that.

Like i mentioned before:
Because of sisters downplaying her being viewed as "useless runt" this caused revolt in Misty character wanting to prove that she is better than them which set up ground for deciding to become water master in first place. Because of this character toughen up feeling inferior to them with confidence being staggered,with temper being used as mask to hide her flaws leaving negative effect on her mental state(in my post above i explained it more thoroughly).

Over time as Misty became more open to Ash and Brock establishing strong friendship,she started to reveal more about her past over time softening up. Thanks to winning Princess festival, coming top 8 in Whirl Cup,being recognized by several trainers like Dorian,Andreas,Trinity, Marina from Orange Islands etc as good water trainer which has talent character started to gain more confidence in her own abilities realizing that she isnt in any way inferior than Daisy,Lily and Violet are.

Thanks to this she managed to take on mentor and older sister role to other characters who suffered from similar issues such as Sakura helping her about same issue with older siblings and whn she took over gym at end of Johto getting it back on right track character gained sisters respect becoming filled with sense of accomplishment, becoming more confident and independent restoring bad relationship she used to have with them in past.

Yeah, agreed. And even that was unfortunately shafted when she was forced into a gym position that she doesn't even want (not merely "didn't want" since that implies she changed her mind, but doesn't because as late as her second AG appearance [excluding the Hosos] she made clear her dislike of running the gym by trying to delay returning as long as she possibly could.). Next time they want to have Misty make a cameo (and thanks to Mayumi Iizuka's tweet a few months ago, a cameo's probably going to be inevitable), actually have her pursue her dreams if they can't have her return to the main cast instead of being forced into a gym again. She definitely developed the most of the girls, surpassing May [probably the only other character to truly develop as a character].

Being along with May character which changed the most as person.

Yeah, and even May's development was not even close to Misty's development, as aside from becoming more confident and assured of herself, she was still effectively the same as before.

Thats not same as someone goals and affinities being explored and developed as much as they could obviously. Because in that aspect writers left many things unfinished and alot more to be desired.

In goal structure, fleshing out of someone dream and ambitions, pokemon team and consistent storyline which is well connected, obviously your right. Misty was handled pretty subpar compared to other girl protagonists. But i cannot pretend like everything was handled worse about her, and i have to give writers credit.

Yeah, and besides, she still got actual focus on her goal compared to Brock. When was the last time his breeder goal even came about? And that was despite Johto actually introducing Pokemon breeding. And heck, I'd arguably say that her goal was more important than May or Dawn's goals, since at least her goals actually could lead to the end credits if one plays the games. May and Dawn's contest goals only land to a trophy, in a sidequest for another sidequest that the player could go about without even doing at all, and was apparently lacking of importance enough that they had zero hesitation in replacing May with Dawn for DP when they could have easily just had her tag along to Sinnoh.

In having what in my opinion appeared to be one of most believable growths character went through in show gradually(though that process was rather slow) growing in mature, independent person through friends help, as well stronger trainer coming long way since early days when she just wanted to run away from sister shadow being full of insecurity and self doubts.

Yeah, agreed with that.

While delivering lot of lively atmosphere, sense of justice and proactive solutions in moving things forward with her curious, definat characterization. Often being possible to feel Misty presence because of taking part in various activities and through deducing and actively coming up with ideas and plans helping toi push other characters, story and problems forward gaining some knowledge. Even if it wasn't directly linked to her own dreams and aspirations.

Agreed overall. And besides, as stated multiple times, she at least got more focus in her goals compared to Brock. Even Tracey had more focus to his goals than Brock did.

It depends on how you look at it. You view Misty removal as move which allowed pokemon series to grow and explore new concepts with character standing in way of that.

With me, i consider Misty leaving to be mistake because it lead to losing great deal of comedy, identity and playful charm her unique and varied personality brought knowing how to pull out anger and agitation from others leading to amusing conflicts, how to establish strong friendship with others helping them to find themselves in romance or e courage to keep trying and do their best like she did with Brock being complete and complex as character bringing lot of turbulent turmoils and colorful interactions within cast,. Along with having compelling story and dream of becoming master of type she adores(water), aspiration to learn as much as she can about various pokemon, catch legendary type or connect with him making herself known and recognized among other experts of such profession. Become powerful as E4 members, like LOrekei she worships so much.

Yeah, and Lizardo, the writers, or at least Shudo, is more likely to agree with DBZ fan than with you regarding that.

And besides, they basically decided to replace Misty with a character and made said character into a Hina stereotype. That was a really huge jerk move that alienated many of us fans, especially when Misty's popularity was precisely because she was a different kind of female character (she doesn't even really fit the Tsundere stereotype, either).

She undeniably had lot of potential waiting to be explored, unique relationship with pokemon(like Psyduck), interesting history and family from which she came opening array of possibilities waiting to be done.

Which was was poor and bad move in my opinion with writers not thinking far enough in what consequences this move would cause. Resulting in possibly biggest and most intense backlash i ever saw for any replaced companion, with no fans being as adamant and passionate over writers bringing Misty back with any other replaced character. I came on internet in 2002/2003, and complaining was huge at that time. Liking her varied characterization and being dsisappointed that story was left unfinished with lot of materias to be done much more never being used, feeling Misty left prematurely.

Yeah, agreed, and the fact that there were plenty more people even to this day who are demanding Misty return, even those who most likely didn't even grow up with the Original Series (I remember a Vanderland kid mentioning he could get signatures to a Bring Misty Back petition I was circulating throughout Dunwoody High School, and at that time, DP was just starting in the United States), that should really be something to consider. Heck, on Halloween last year, Ian Flynn with the Archie Mega Man Franchise did a special Halloween bit involving Roll, and one of the costumes she used was of Misty from Pokemon, and apparently was the only Pokemon-based character she used. And while I myself initially didn't actually care about Misty being removed because I stopped watching Pokemon by that point (not for any faults the show itself may have had, but because of KidsWB's Socka Party commercial), I did start caring after realizing how May was of the Hina stereotype, both in body and in deed, which was a bad influence on children.

Especially when taken in account how Hoenn was dappled with many interesting plots like Kyogre and Team Aqua, experts like Juan and Wallace. 9th movie being all about water and prince of sea Manaphy, all those islands, oceans, lakes where more tournaments like Whirl Cup, introduction of bug water pokemon like Surskit which evolves in Masquerain(not hard to deduce how would this be great way to give Misty more development) could be made advancing her story.

Agreed with that, and unlike with May, I can definitely guarantee that Misty would not become a coward when Manaphy ends up snatched from her by Phantom late into the film, heck, maybe even expand on her backstory like revealing she was a descendant of the Samiyans/Akushans, puts another light to Ash's claim about her desire for the dolls being a "Misty thing" in Princess vs. Princess. Maybe even reveal Daisy, Lily, and Violet, presumably her deadbeat parents as well, to be adopted sisters, adding for more development and even the implication that the neglect may have been due to racism. There was plenty they could have done for Misty as well, heck, even create a standard for becoming a Water Pokemon Master, possibly even challenge some Water Gyms to give her an edge. There was plenty of things they could have done for her in AG, not simply ax her out. And heck, expand it for DP as well, especially when there was a Water-themed Pokemon Contest. Heck, a fanfic I had been planning years ago actually had a concept similar to what I'm and you're proposing regarding Temple of the Sea with Misty, only replace Phantom with Team Rocket (and not JJM Team Rocket, but the organization as a whole), and also have Misty accessing a new form upon repairing the sea crown (one that actually resembles a Super Saiyan or Super Hedgehog). Oh, and having the main bad guy (a Darth Vader-esque character responsible for the murder of her true parents, and nearly tried to kill her as a baby) intending to specifically set off the traps inside the temple to destroy it as well as the Sea Crown specifically to effectively cause a power vacuum among the Water Pokemon and presumably any other Pokemon (alluding to how Team Rocket frequently tries to kill Pokemon, think the Mother Marowak from Gen I).

When even writers themselves admit how they removed Misty without exploring her enough, than any further debate of their incompetence in removing characters before its time becomes superfluous.

Yeah, not to mention their admitting such was also a huge mistake, which should preclude any debate about whether the writers did a good job or not in removing her. Funny thing is, B2W2 with the World Conference provided the writers with the perfect opportunity to fix this, yet they didn't.

Personally i dont only think that Kanto, but Johto as well in its better parts contained more layers and depth in someone characterization. Than anything else which came afterwards. Filled with deeper, more original arcs and subjects. Like dealing with pretty dark and intricate backtory about Mewtwo, even for pokemon standards. Developing hatred and resentment toward humans killing all scientists on island starting to question its own existence and what purpose he really serves. Prequel to Mewtwo movie introducing girl Amber which spent whole life in tube telling Mewtwo to continue living never having chance to live herself experiencing all its charms and positive things realizing how end is near dying shortly afterwards .

Invoke of mega big pokemon like Alakazam and Gengar threatening to destroy world in apocalyptic like scenario, even Johto side adventures like Whirl islands and Whirl Cup brimming with mystery and connection to ancient times theme etc regarding ancient sea sprits and heroes which controled water poikemon. Mystery about Silver Wing, baby Lugia and its mother being imprisoned. Focus on first and only time in pokemon anime history character with serious mental disorder, introducing concept of split personality through Sabrina which became psychotic because of being treated as outcast and feared by everyone, developing pleasure to hurt others.

Brock sad background in being abandoned with younger siblings by parents, having to take over parental role in taking care of them and put his own dreams and desires aside to take care of Pewter gym and his family. Developing guardian, protective feelings toward his brothers and sisters trying to escape from reality and this way of living.

Misty losing parents at very young age being constantly degraded by everyone else and her sisters; who deconstructed her confidence and security as character. Becoming rough and mistrustful , creating facade to hide her own vulnerability and weakness she had as person and trainer. Having emotional struggles, coping with it and developing need to be independent and headstrong. Due to experiences from past not wanting to receive pity and depend on anyone.

Real use of fire arms, guns, tanks, bazookas or bombs. Such as in giant Tentacruel invading Porta Vista city. Pokemon ranger pointing gun at Ash starting to fire, same with TR putting gun on ranger head. Rocket trio using bombs and explosives, or Ash and co meeting officer Jenny which developed special squad in fighting criminals with fire arms through Growlith disabling thief.

Receiving sequel in Johto through Giovanni launching massive operation in finding Mewtwo and his clone brethen. Diving deeper in mewtwo thoughts, conceot of death, will there ever be peace and place where he could live far away from humans, being painfully aware of being viewed as outcast.

Illustrated and inspiring storyline from third movie featuring Molly Hale who as result of feeling lonely, confused and scared looking for mother care and father protection. Caused that through Unknown her thoughts and needs manifest themseklves in reality resulting in Ash mother being kidnapped.

Giving to us various pretty tame stories such as of 200 years old NInetales from Johto waiting for its master, not realizing it has died.

Gym leader Price suffering heavy burns from fireblast to protect its pokemon in youth. Becoming over the years cold hearted, embittered person which lost faith in developing bond with pokemon after thinking that Piloswine betrayed him.
Etcetra, etcetra.

Yeah, agreed with that, and even IF Misty's parents weren't dead (as apparently one of the writers confirmed they weren't, and in fact were like Brock's deadbeat parents), her parents basically abandoning them would actually make for even more angst and another reason for her development. The Kanto and even Johto series definitely had a lot more actual story development than anything after it.

Not saying how there didn't existed sad or more mature storylines in AG, DP, BW(because Hunter J, Cyrus from Team Galactic, king of pokelantis from Hoenn posessing Ash body, Dawn depression, N trying to release pokemon from human influence etc instantly come to mind for example).

Yeah, and sometimes they came across as half-baked, as was the case with Cyrus, since they basically made him into a typical Saturday morning cartoon villain, with his tragic backstory from the games not even being touched up upon, even in the Japanese version, not to mention N's shafting (though that was more the game designers' fault for prematurely releasing B2W2 than the writers' fault).

But in general i felt under mr. Shudo batton and sometime after his leaving from place of head writer for series. World in pokemon anime was portrayed as darker, more tougher place to live in with gym leaders often being portrayed in bearish, robust style like lt. Surge whoch demanded discipline putting opponent pokemon to hospital, or people they came across being frauds and manipulators like that kid with Farfetched which stealed from other people. Manipulation of pokemon evolution causing Gyarados to forcefully evolve(one which Lance cauight), Latios death or all those huge tear jerkers(like PIkachu and Butterfree goodbye, Misty and Brock leaving ASh etc packed with immense emotion, sadness and suspense).

Yeah, agreed. Especially when most other group separations don't even have the characters even being remotely hesitant at splitting apart (May if anything was way too eager to lose Ash and the others, and even her return seemed more predicated on her goal than actually on her "friends." Probably the only character to actually have any reluctance to leave his friends was Max. DP did it slightly better with Dawn at least briefly being sad, though even that wasn't done that well). Not to mention that from AG onward, up to possibly BW (and that's only because they actually made Ash into a total idiot than actually demonstrating skills on the GLs part), the GLs were basically made into JJM clones (especially JJM's loss in the third episode against a Caterpie that was near dead and completely inexperienced), even worse considering how they removed Misty.

As well several episodes dealing with psychological issues, someone trauma and developed misconceoptions about certain pokemon species bringing extra depth to story and whole adventure.

Backed with strong, spontaneolus and organic chemistry between original trio managing to carry out message of adventure pokemon tried to promote and companions which have fun together , exploring world, new places, people and creatures while pursuing different dreams in realistic, simplified and inbred manner.

Resulting in highest number of banned episodes comes exactly from older series. Coincidence or not OS were only time where real blood was showed too never happening again.

Drawing paralel of mr. Shudo trying to write for Kanto, Orange and to extent Johto as anime aimed not just for kids, but teenagers, adults, elders etc with more mature and sophisticated level of writing being present in it in my view. Alongside more passion and heart in developing plot.

Agreed overall. And it wasn't even that bloody at all (aside from James losing a tooth courtesy of Jessie in the St. Anne episode), just a brief cut and some brief red splotches on the Pokémon's mangled body. It's still a lot more than what we get currently, though, and honestly, currently the writers are being too PC anyways (heck, we got a DP episode that could arguably make the case for gay marriage with Piplup and Pikachu falling in love with each other thanks to a malfunctioning device, and keep in mind they're both male, to say nothing about how the infamous Zoaroak movie happened because the writers were apparently big fans of Michael Moore's propagandistic movies. Even if Misty was in the film, I would never see it).