Do you think the writers and the (dub) actors are incompetent?

[KorpiklaaniVodka]

I do. Even 7 year old kids realize this show is basically crap. TV Tokyo and ShoPro don't care about their fans and how the story goes (in my opinion). All they care about is $$$.

>Team Rocket (except BW)
>Tobias
>Pikachu losing to a level 5 Snivy after tying with a Latios
>Trip
>Rushed tournaments (actually, the entire BW arc was rushed)
>Ash LOSING to Cameron?
>Decolore Archipelago (Adventures in Unova and Beyond)
>Bonnie
>Ash doesn't grow up
>BW's bad japanese endings (except for the second one)

Yeah, those are things that in my opinion don't belong in a serious anime. What do you guys think?

 

[Famon]

I do believe Writers are incompetent !
Not only they waste good opportunity , They doesn't come with anything better.
For example , Rivals !
Even I can come with better rival despite being an Amateur But those idiots couldn't came up with anything better then Trip & Cameron!!!
More then enough proof of their incompetence .
AND NOW THEY DITCHING RIVALS BECAUSE NOBODY ACCEPT TRASH LIKES TRIP & CAMERON!!!
How dumb can they get???
Most of good thing of the Anime was done by Takeshi Shudo & his team. Like the League conference for example.
I heard a rumor about Tomika letting amateur Freelancers to handle the script.
Now I believe the rumor to be true .

Another proof--
If I had to do a ''Da Journey'' then first I will give Ash a more dignifying defeat in Unova League.
Then Ash will join a school on a ship and meet friends as classmate.
Anyone remember ''The Suite life on Deck'' ! Basically I will do the same.
Iris & Cilan will lose their status as Main character because A ship full Kids now the cast Character of the Show.
Thats how I would handle ''Da Journey''

 

[Wobbu]

Just because the show doesn't cater to your every ideal doesn't necessarily mean that the writers and dub actors are incompetent. The Team Rocket routine was getting old, that's why they gave them a slight change of seriousness during BW (which I thought was a good idea). Sure Tobias was OP, but is that necessarily a bad thing? It was either Ash lose to Paul or lose to someone OP, and losing to someone OP was the better choice due to Ash's climactic win against Paul. Pikachu lost to Snivy because Ash wasn't aware that Pikachu post its Electric powers. From his perspective, how would he have known that Zekrom disabled Pikachu? Not sure what you mean by rushed tournaments. Many battles occurred during the course of an entire episode, unless you would've preferred to see the random background characters' battles. Just because Cameron seemed foolish at times doesn't mean he can't be a bad Trainer. He's good at overcoming disadvantages, as witnessed during his battles against Marlon and Ash. Decolore was fun, and I think Ash deserves to take at least one break from Training. What's the issue with Bonnie? She's a much more notable presence than Max. Ash hasn't aged by numbers but his experience has surpassed that of an average ten year old.

The things that you don't like do have an explanation for why they happened, which means that the writers are completely competent imo.

 

[Dr. Wiggles]

It's a cartoon for kids, what do you expect?

 

[donavannj]

I do. Even 7 year old kids realize this show is basically crap. TV Tokyo and ShoPro don't care about their fans and how the story goes (in my opinion). All they care about is $$$.

Are you completely unaware that it's been a shill for merchandise and the games since the very beginning?

>Bonnie

I'm sorry, you must have your characters confused. Bonnie is by far the best of the main four in XY. Her marriage proposals are the highlights of every episode she's done one in, and her eye for women is far keener than Brock's was (Brock was drooling over every single pretty face they met).

>Ash doesn't grow up

Why should he? He and Pikachu are the single most marketable characters of the anime, and it's hard for children to relate to teenagers.

serious anime.

Pokemon never intended to be serious. It intended to be fun for all ages while being targeted at children.

 

[Famon]

Just because the show doesn't cater to your every ideal doesn't necessarily mean that the writers and dub actors are incompetent. The Team Rocket routine was getting old, that's why they gave them a slight change of seriousness during BW (which I thought was a good idea). Sure Tobias was OP, but is that necessarily a bad thing? It was either Ash lose to Paul or lose to someone OP, and losing to someone OP was the better choice due to Ash's climactic win against Paul. Pikachu lost to Snivy because Ash wasn't aware that Pikachu post its Electric powers. From his perspective, how would he have known that Zekrom disabled Pikachu? Not sure what you mean by rushed tournaments. Many battles occurred during the course of an entire episode, unless you would've preferred to see the random background characters' battles. Just because Cameron seemed foolish at times doesn't mean he can't be a bad Trainer. He's good at overcoming disadvantages, as witnessed during his battles against Marlon and Ash. Decolore was fun, and I think Ash deserves to take at least one break from Training. What's the issue with Bonnie? She's a much more notable presence than Max. Ash hasn't aged by numbers but his experience has surpassed that of an average ten year old.

The things that you don't like do have an explanation for why they happened, which means that the writers are completely competent imo.

It's a cartoon for kids, what do you expect?

Don't blame Kids for Writer's incompetence !!!
Digimon Xros War didn't do half of thing Pokemon BW series did yet it become popular enough to get nomination for emmy award.
Digimon's game & franschise may be not as Popular as Digimon But Digimon is better then Pokemon when it comes to Anime.
If showing some Cute animal was enough for Kids Anime then ''Jewel Pet'' would have been more popular then Doreamon.
You can say that Writer tried to make Ash funny & Childish ! Then just answer me this --

Did Ash's silly & Childish trait make you laugh just like Luffy (One Piece) & Goku (DBZ) make you laugh.

Truth is , Ash couldn't match ether one ! Because Most of those guy silly & childish trait are well-thought and calculated So they only seemed Silly & Childish But not stupid .
Also--

--Ash didn't needed electric attack to Beat a Level-5 Snivy ! He could have finish it off with Iron Tail . Hack , They could end the first episode with Pikachu about to get hit by ''Leaf Tornedo'' to keep audience at suspense and then at the next episode Pikachu dough and use Iron tail to win But fall down due to the injury it took earlier .

--So Just because Cameron beat Bianca , he should be considered to be super-strong !!! He only won with all Power no tactic!
Beating Maron is no achievement when he was obviously depowered like Ash ! Its like how 2nd gym-leader like Roxie shown to be Super-strong .
An A Overwhelming advantage??? That what You call a newly evolved Lucario.
Why don't you simply say ''Lucario'' Trainer will always beat Ash unless he resort to cheating .
Ash still had 3 pokemon left , 3 ! It like simply saying Cameron & Lucario has better bond then Ash has with all his Pokemon .
Even though ''Bond'' were complete useless against Paul.
We all can guess what will happen in Korrina's gym ! Obviously he going to get a pity Badge Or He going to use 4 pokemon to beat that 1 Lucario .
To me , Its the less hyped Gym-Battle .
Also I'm pissed about how Cameron & Iris can get Super power Hydergion and Dragonite But Ash isn't even allowed to get a Lucario .

--Team Rocket main problem is that they are still Bad guy ! There haven't been any development on them . BW series only made it worst.
Just like I said , Team Rocket just primary ''Friendly villain'' who clash against the protagonist time to time yet has complicate unique friendship .
They never suppose to be serious Villain , Not even in original series.
James will never patch thing with his parent and Jessie will never find a true goal. And Meowth will never find a trainer he will love.

--Also , didn't Ash took Break training all the time in BW series ! He always had less training more adventure in Unova.
May be that why he get his ass-kicked by trash like Trip & Cameron.
Because they all train while Ash just take break and has Adventure.
The main reason Pokemon was Unique was due to Ash desire to reach the Top But ''Da Journey'' turn Pokemon into regular type Kids Anime with nothing to ''Look forward too''.

Writer were incompetent and Lazy ! They are bunch of Old Man who think Kids Anime just need cute Little Animal doing funny little thing.
They doesn't know the difference between a Kindergartener & A Preteen Elementary school Student.

 

[Wobbu]

--Ash didn't needed electric attack to Beat a Level-5 Snivy ! He could have finish it off with Iron Tail . Hack , They could end the first episode with Pikachu about to get hit by ''Leaf Tornedo'' to keep audience at suspense and then at the next episode Pikachu dough and use Iron tail to win But fall down due to the injury it took earlier .

Ash was relying on Pikachu's electric attacks to win the battle, which is why he didn't use Iron Tail or Quick Attack. Ash and Pikachu were unaware of Zekrom's effect, so it's not like Ash would've have known that the electric attacks did nothing. I don't see how the writers are to blame for Ash losing a reasonably rigged battle.

--So Just because Cameron beat Bianca , he should be considered to be super-strong !!! He only won with all Power no tactic!
Beating Maron is no achievement when he was obviously depowered like Ash ! Its like how 2nd gym-leader like Roxie shown to be Super-strong .

How is it that Cameron won with no tactic? Using Ferrothorn effectively while it was limited of movement on the buoyant platform seems to me like a very tactical performance. How was Marlon obviously underpowered? Also, anime =/= games. Roxie may or may not the second Gym Leader, it depends on when a Trainer chooses to battle her. One of the Gym Leader's roles in the anime is to provide a fair battle against their opponents, and since Ash had seven badges, Roxie went all-out. That's one of the ways in which the writers make things interesting by making the Gym Leaders more dynamic and realistic.

An A Overwhelming advantage??? That what You call a newly evolved Lucario.
Why don't you simply say ''Lucario'' Trainer will always beat Ash unless he resort to cheating .
Ash still had 3 pokemon left , 3 ! It like simply saying Cameron & Lucario has better bond then Ash has with all his Pokemon .
Even though ''Bond'' were complete useless against Paul.
We all can guess what will happen in Korrina's ! Obviously he going to get a pity Badge Or He going to use 4 pokemon to beat that 1 Lucario .
To me , Its the less hyped Gym-Battle .

Props to the writers for making things fair. It's not like Ash is the only Trainer who is able to evolve Pokémon during a battle. Cameron receiving a whole new Pokémon during the middle of a battle is enough to ruin a strategy, and it did ruin Ash's strategy.

There is a logical and reasonable explanation for almost every event that has happened in the anime. If that doesn't make the writers competent, then I don't know what will.

 

[Famon]

Ash was relying on Pikachu's electric attacks to win the battle, which is why he didn't use Iron Tail or Quick Attack. Ash and Pikachu were unaware of Zekrom's effect, so it's not like Ash would've have known that the electric attacks did nothing. I don't see how the writers are to blame for Ash losing a reasonably rigged battle.

He saw 2 time Pikachu inability to use Electric attack yet he couldn't think of using Iron Tail.
Plus , Why did Zekrem appeared there at the first place ? Did Trip prayed to Zekrem to make him Win ?
And I always talk about the 2nd battle between Ash & Trip ! Not the first one.
Ash shouldn't lose that badly considering Both caught new Pokemon But Ash had experience and A Pokemon with more experience then all Trip's Pokemon.
Do You expect Korrina's Lucario to lose to Trip's Servine?

How is it that Cameron won with no tactic? Using Ferrothorn effectively while it was limited of movement on the buoyant platform seems to me like a very tactical performance. How was Marlon obviously underpowered? Also, anime =/= games. Roxie may or may not the second Gym Leader, it depends on when a Trainer chooses to battle her. One of the Gym Leader's roles in the anime is to provide a fair battle against their opponents, and since Ash had seven badges, Roxie went all-out. That's one of the ways in which the writers make things interesting by making the Gym Leaders more dynamic and realistic.

If I remember correctly , Ferrothorn got easily taken down by Pignite !
And You saying Roxie Went all out by using 3 pokemon against Ash's 6??? That's call ''Holding back'' !
Its Commonsense !
If Roxie went all Out that she would 6 Pokemon , Not just 3 !
And If I remember correctly then Roxie took most trainer using only Koffin ! Including the one Ash met at the gym.
The only smart thing Marlon did was ''Curse Body'' ! He's definatly the less impressive Gym-leader in the Anime.
The Only reason Cameron Won was due to Hydregion & Lucario.
I guess Paul was right about catching only strong Pokemon rather then wasting time with weakling like Oshawott since that all Cameron needed.
To think BW Series Proved the same thing DP Series tried to prove wrong for 4 year ! BRAVO WRITERS !

Props to the writers for making things fair. It's not like Ash is the only Trainer who is able to evolve Pokémon during a battle. Cameron receiving a whole new Pokémon during the middle of a battle is enough to ruin a strategy, and it did ruin Ash's strategy.

Evolution doesn't guaranty victory !
Ash lose despite his Pokemon evolution . Like the full battle with Paul for example.
As for Mandy , He lose because he got Over-confident .
Just like Ash lost multiple battle to weak trainer because of his Confidence Until he met Draco at Hoenn where he told about how he use to lose a lot because of overconfidence promoting Ash to take a vow about not being overconfidence.
And Your talking about fairness ????
You call Trip wining the whole Junior Cup unscratched FAIR ?
Then how about making Ash's Hawlucha untouchable ! It has the same base speed as Serperior .
Oh , I remember , Its Unfair for Ash to have Untouchable Pokemon But its totally fair for their love-child Trip to win whole Tournament unscratched .

There is a logical and reasonable explanation for almost every event that has happened in the anime. If that doesn't make the writers competent, then I don't know what will.

No , There wasn't any logical explanation !
It was all stupid statement without any commonsense into it .
Most of Writer's mistake had no explanation since there were better way to handle everything.
For example , If Ash has to lose to Cameron then why it has to be 6 vs 5 ? If Ash going face Trip first then isn't wiser to make the 1st battle 3 vs 3 like Kanto League ?
If Writer were competent then they did this to torment Ash-fans for not accepting their love-child Trip .
Last time I cheek ,Where Pokemon drop down 2nd place to 8th Place in Bandai Toy sales chart ! The Anime must did an amazing Job for the Franchise .

 

[Wobbu]

No , There wasn't any logical explanation !
It was all stupid statement without any commonsense into it .
Most of Writer's mistake had no explanation since there were better way to handle everything.

You appear to trash the writers because the characters don't align with your ideals. That doesn't prove the writers are incompetent in reality, it proves that they are incompetent from your perspective only. As I mentioned in my previous post: everything has a logical explanation. If something didn't happen the way you wanted it to, it doesn't make it illogical.

 

[Jorah]

I do. Even 7 year old kids realize this show is basically crap. TV Tokyo and ShoPro don't care about their fans and how the story goes (in my opinion). All they care about is $$$.

>Team Rocket (except BW)
>Tobias
>Pikachu losing to a level 5 Snivy after tying with a Latios
>Trip
>Rushed tournaments (actually, the entire BW arc was rushed)
>Ash LOSING to Cameron?
>Decolore Archipelago (Adventures in Unova and Beyond)
>Bonnie
>Ash doesn't grow up
>BW's bad japanese endings (except for the second one)

Yeah, those are things that in my opinion don't belong in a serious anime. What do you guys think?

I think the title of this thread should just be "were the writers of BW incompetent?", ha. DP Ash was the most skilled at battling (so far) so they put in cheap Tobias the legendary user to make it seem "legit" that he lost. Although, yeah, that annoyed me, too. From what I heard, it was better him losing to a cheap legendary user than him being incompetent throughout BW and his awful league performance there, but I haven't watched the BW league so can't really comment. I don't think there's anything much wrong with Bonnie. She's pretty cute and amusing. And hey, Sakura go Round was a cute ending theme.

For a lot of dubs the voice acting isn't as good as the original version. I suppose they don't have the budget that they do in Japan? I only watch subs nowadays anyway.

 

[Famon]

I think the title of this thread should just be "were the writers of BW incompetent?", ha. DP Ash was the most skilled at battling (so far) so they put in cheap Tobias the legendary user to make it seem "legit" that he lost. Although, yeah, that annoyed me, too. From what I heard, it was better him losing to a cheap legendary user than him being incompetent throughout BW and his awful league performance there, but I haven't watched the BW league so can't really comment. I don't think there's anything much wrong with Bonnie. She's pretty cute and amusing. And hey, Sakura go Round was a cute ending theme.

For a lot of dubs the voice acting isn't as good as the original version. I suppose they don't have the budget that they do in Japan? I only watch subs nowadays anyway.

Its because most episode of DP were personally handle by The Head writer Tomika.
But during , He didn't paid much attention and let freelancer do whatever crap they wanted.

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Are you completely unaware that it's been a shill for merchandise and the games since the very beginning?

It wasn't until around AG, maybe DP that they actually tried to closely follow the games to a huge extent. In the original series, they at least tried to make things original.

EDIT:

I'm sorry, you must have your characters confused. Bonnie is by far the best of the main four in XY. Her marriage proposals are the highlights of every episode she's done one in, and her eye for women is far keener than Brock's was (Brock was drooling over every single pretty face they met).

Can't comment much on Bonnie or Serena as I haven't actually watched XY at all, but with that said, I can agree with you on Brock. In fact, even back in Kanto, I don't recall ever finding Brock's womanizing gag funny. And it also doesn't help matters much that many of us heterosexual males are being stereotyped as sex maniacs now, like with Glenn Quagmire, Lumiere, Krillin (prior to marrying 18), Master Roshi, and all of those guys.

Why should he? He and Pikachu are the single most marketable characters of the anime, and it's hard for children to relate to teenagers.

Dragon Ball was geared towards children as well, and so was Digimon, yet those characters DID age. And besides, when you have a journey to improve, become the very best, require multiple regions, and you actually reference Ash's accomplishments, yes, aging is required regardless of whether the show is geared to children or not. And it's not hard for children to relate to teenagers at all. The Disney Princesses are catered towards young girls, and even the films they debuted in, which were geared for children of both genders, were still geared for families. Guess what? All of them are either late teens or young adults by the time of their debut films (and that's not even getting into sequels). I think the closest to a child one of them ever got was Snow White, who was 14 at the time of her film. If your logic held out, there's absolutely no way children would even follow their merchandising or their original films because they are not of the same age as the characters.

 

[Famon]

You appear to trash the writers because the characters don't align with your ideals. That doesn't prove the writers are incompetent in reality, it proves that they are incompetent from your perspective only. As I mentioned in my previous post: everything has a logical explanation. If something didn't happen the way you wanted it to, it doesn't make it illogical.

Or may be its the opposite of what you think .
Is this my personal ideal of Ash being strong enough to beat a Rookie and not get curdstumb by him?
Is this also my personal opinion for Ash to have more dignified defeat in the League?
Is it my Personal opinion for Iris to show off her Battling skill with Normal Dragon rather then getting a freaking OP Dragonite?
It seem You see Pokemon more as a Japanese ''Dragon tales'' which is why you think Writers were Competent!

 

[Pinkie-Dawn]

From here I thought you were going to discuss about the English dub judging by the title, but it turns out you're talking about the anime itself.

I do. Even 7 year old kids realize this show is basically crap. TV Tokyo and ShoPro don't care about their fans and how the story goes (in my opinion). All they care about is $$$.

Gee, just like every other company known to man.

>Team Rocket (except BW)

I don't see how having comedic villains are a bad thing, even Meowth's seiyuu wasn't fond with the dark tone given to them during the beginning of BW.

>Ash LOSING to Cameron?

In Cameron's defense, he was using a Lucario, which according to /vp/ is Pokémon's Lightning.

>Bonnie

That's a funny way to spell Serena.

>Ash doesn't grow up

Neither does Bart Simpson, the boys of South Park, Timmy Turner, etc.

Yeah, those are things that in my opinion don't belong in a serious anime. What do you guys think?

Pokémon was never meant to be serious in the first place. While there's parental bonuses and dark moment, it's still primary targeted towards children.

 

[Wobbu]

Or may be its the opposite of what you think .
Is this my personal ideal of Ash being strong enough to beat a Rookie and not get curdstumb by him?
Is this also my personal opinion for Ash to have more dignified defeat in the League?
Is it my Personal opinion for Iris to show off her Battling skill with Normal Dragon rather then getting a freaking OP Dragonite?
It seem You see Pokemon more as a Japanese ''Dragon tales'' which is why you think Writers were Competent!

Yes, those are your personal ideals and opinions, not your exclusive ideals and opinions. I have my own personal ideals and opinions, but do I complain when they don't happen? No. I'd like to see them come to fruition but I don't blame the writers for being incompetent for not fulfilling them. I enjoy what I'm given knowing that I won't be able to make a difference.

Apparently I closed this thread on accident... Sorry about that, everyone, it's opened again.

 

[Taemin]

Eeeeh.

If they were so incompetent then the show would not still be airing, especially not outside of Japan. A lot of us have our complaints, or ways that we think it could improve, but apparently younger kids like it well enough that it's been upwards of 15 years and it hasn't gone under yet. .w.

When last I heard it averages about 4 million views or so per episode, and the start and the end of most series is more like 7 million, which is really quite the number for an anime that's been around for so long and isn't too hyped anymore. In general, I think that the writing team and voice actors are doing just fine. It could be better in some ways, AKA have deeper character development, and generally allow Ash to keep his skills with every new region (IMO), but I understand their reasons for not doing those things with it. :/

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Would have replied earlier, but Wobbu accidentally closed the thread:0

Gee, just like every other company known to man.

"Every other company known to man" usually tries to alter its business practices if they realize that said business practices are actually decreasing their profits and ratings. This does not, however, even when their current business practices are killing them. And when even children, who make up the largest base, are being repulsed by the quality of the anime, and they aren't actually fixing the show, the show has problems.

I don't see how having comedic villains are a bad thing, even Meowth's seiyuu wasn't fond with the dark tone given to them during the beginning of BW.

Having comedic villains in itself isn't a bad thing. But when they aren't actually made threatening, even if in a non-dark manner, it makes their role very pointless. The point of being a villain is to be a pretty big threat to the protagonist or anyone around them. For example, the Joker is most certainly comedic in the BTAS shows, yet even he was depicted as being a genuine threat despite that. Same with Kefka Palazzo, and Bowser isn't even that dark of a villain and even very much comical to almost the same extent as JJM in some games, yet he is nonetheless depicted as being a genuine threat himself despite this. And BTW, I wasn't particularly happy with how they were handled in BW myself largely because they didn't strike the right balance. But I'd rather take BW TRio than have to endure JJM basically being treated like total wimps who aren't even a remote threat like in AG and DP.

In Cameron's defense, he was using a Lucario, which according to /vp/ is Pokémon's Lightning.

That's a funny way to spell Serena.

TC's referring to that gym leader's sister, not the female playable character.

Neither does Bart Simpson, the boys of South Park, Timmy Turner, etc.

At least the shows they were in were never intended to actually have much continuity, even being a floating timeline. Pokémon, on the other hand, with its constant focuses on the journey and trying to go through multiple leagues did imply growth and, you know, actually having continuity, meaning it made little sense for Ash and co. to NOT age.

Pokémon was never meant to be serious in the first place. While there's parental bonuses and dark moment, it's still primary targeted towards children.

Actually, it was intended to be geared towards families, but then executive meddling on both sides of the Pacific and their neighbors among other things decided to make it a kids show along the lines of Barney and Friends by the time of AG, DP, BW, and XY. Takeshi Shudo even made this much clear in his blogs, and even objected to the kiddification of the anime. And it's failing at even that, based on the decreasing ratings not only in the dub, but even in Japan, certainly more of a drop than usual thanks to BW.

Eeeeh.

If they were so incompetent then the show would not still be airing, especially not outside of Japan. A lot of us have our complaints, or ways that we think it could improve, but apparently younger kids like it well enough that it's been upwards of 15 years and it hasn't gone under yet. .w.

When last I heard it averages about 4 million views or so per episode, and the start and the end of most series is more like 7 million, which is really quite the number for an anime that's been around for so long and isn't too hyped anymore. In general, I think that the writing team and voice actors are doing just fine. It could be better in some ways, AKA have deeper character development, and generally allow Ash to keep his skills with every new region (IMO), but I understand their reasons for not doing those things with it. :/

Maybe, but then again, there also were a lot of people who really shouldn't be teaching our kids anything yet actually are teaching them in various public and private schools, heck, even Colleges and Universities, many of them even being given tenure. Not to mention a lot of news stations are still going on even when many of them are in fact losing a huge amount of ratings. And considering ratings were actually dropping in the Anime each passing year, usually increasing just a little with the airing of a new series and even then it never actually reaches the height of the beginning of the prior series, I'd say they are definitely losing a lot of viewers. I know the start of DP had about the same ratings as the second, maybe third season of AG (and in fact, the Pike Queen Lucy was at the time considered the worst-rated episode ever, and by now it's most likely to have already been upstaged by several episodes) based on a Pokeani ratings chart (at least I think it was Pokeani, I know it had brown wallpaper though).

 

[Perriechu]

I can literally see no reason as to why the actors were brought into this discussion since your original post has nothing to do with them lol, voice actors are brought in and expected to do what they're paid for, voice the character, they don't write or get a say in what the characters do.

>Pikachu losing to a level 5 Snivy after tying with a Latios

Games =/= Anime. Since Snivy knew moves that a level 5 Snivy wouldn't know at that point, it's clear to say that it wasn't level 5, not that levels matter in the anime... a lot of people on this forum seem to forget that important point tbh.

>Trip

Meh, I kinda agree, really didn't like him as a rival as he didn't do anything, he seemed like a Paul knock off.

>Ash LOSING to Cameron?

Once again, I agree, I really didn't want Cameron to win, he was a good character and I liked him but he was too young and too scattered, I mean he didn't even bring 6 Pokemon to the battle, plus that Hydreigon was totally overpowered.

>Decolore Archipelago (Adventures in Unova and Beyond)

I'm indifferent on this. When it was announced I was hoping we'd get to see a few past rivals, Pokemon etc, making it into a development arc instead of just filler. It would have been nice to see a few trainers that Ash had "promised" to see again one day.

>Ash doesn't grow up

When are people going to learn that Ash will never grow up? He'll always be naive and that's the way it's been for nearly 20 years.

--

As for the actual thread, I agree with Wobbu, everyone is just annoyed because the writers aren't writing what the fans want -- if they caved in and basically pandered to fans the show would definitely turn to crap, because everyone wants different things and when that's all shoved together and put into one show it's not pretty see: glee season 5

 

[weedle_mchairybug]

Games =/= Anime. Since Snivy knew moves that a level 5 Snivy wouldn't know at that point, it's clear to say that it wasn't level 5, not that levels matter in the anime... a lot of people on this forum seem to forget that important point tbh.

Even ignoring the fact that levels, aside from one episode of the original series are never brought up at all, the fact of the matter is that Ash, who travelled through four regional leagues plus one filler league and the Battle Frontier, and his Pikachu did as well, basically lost extremely badly to someone who was very clearly a rookie trainer who hadn't even gotten his first start yet, in fact, just got his foot out of the door to the Lab, which is definitely not a good thing at all. Look, in various sporting tournaments, heck, many instances that demonstrate skills, it is generally those who are more experienced that have the advantage over the rookies, so having Ash/Pikachu lose to a trainer who literally had his first battle against him is downright pathetic for him.

Meh, I kinda agree, really didn't like him as a rival as he didn't do anything, he seemed like a Paul knock off.

Yeah, and at least Paul had good reason to be smug and arrogant as he had been through as many regions as Ash did. Trip was literally just starting out.

When are people going to learn that Ash will never grow up? He'll always be naive and that's the way it's been for nearly 20 years.

Yeah, except it comes across as being especially jarring when a huge emphasis is placed on the journey and they even keep continuity in regards to Ash's accomplishments. Those kinds of things do have implied requirements for aging, and it also doesn't help that they actually do reference time passing, heck, even at least one Birthday (Pikachu and Pichu Brothers took place during Ash's anniversary of meeting Pikachu, and that was the first day of his journey, which happened to be after his 10th Birthday. You do the math.). Yes, stuff like the Simpsons don't have aging either, but at least there they didn't need continuity anyways, while Pokémon, basically being the equivalent of a sporting tournament match, does require it. Heck, even Dragon Ball which had a similar premise of getting to the top, does allow for aging. Even Dead or Alive has recently allowed for the characters to age, after the first four games, plus those volleyball games, were apparently held within the same year (which implies that they were quarterly competitions, maybe even bi-monthly).

As for the actual thread, I agree with Wobbu, everyone is just annoyed because the writers aren't writing what the fans want -- if they caved in and basically pandered to fans the show would definitely turn to crap, because everyone wants different things and when that's all shoved together and put into one show it's not pretty see: glee season 5

Considering that the ratings are as low as it is, by ignoring the fans, the show IS turning to crap anyways, with even the target audience, many of whom aren't even fans, being driven away (I know DP was less than AG, and AG was less than Johto even on the Japan side thanks to Pokeani, and based on what happened with BW, I'd be very surprised if Pokémon managed to even get close to the ratings it had at the beginning of DP, never mind rise up).

And besides, I can name at least one show pandering to something we never even asked for and got cancelled for that. Heroes had Claire Bennet somehow being made into a lesbian in the Redemption arc, even though there was absolutely no indication as to whether she even held an attraction to the same sex, and if anything was demonstrated twice to be attracted to guys. None of the fans asked for that or hoped for that, and if anything they actually were sickened by that decision (I know I was, and I've seen several complaints about that development on TV.com). That, BTW, turned out to be the final season for Heroes, at least until the revived show that's coming soon, and considering they had a cliffhanger for the next volume, it's clear that the cancellation was due to ratings failure.

And in either case, this isn't about shipping, which Pokémon a character really should get, legendaries, or anything like that. All I ask is that Ash actually do well in a region, if not actually win a league, instead of doing terribly (like either not increasing in rank, or worse, he decreases in rank), that they actually give certain characters (ie, Misty) actual closure, and all of that.

 

[DBZ fan]

I recall answering this question somewhere else, so i might aswell offer my thoughts on this subject in here as well.

Personally i wouldn't say writers are so much incompetent. Especially when taken in account how some of them like Atsuhiro Tomioka or Jun Takegami are known for writing for other shows with deeper, more constructive character development, much stronger continuity and plots full of unexpected twists pushing narrative and protagonists forward. Such as One Piece, Fairy Tail or naruto.

Its more that when it comes to formulaic anime like pokemon writers are lazy, unmotivated and inconsiderate , especially nowadays not having same energy and enthusiasm they used to have when pokemon still had to prove its worth and gain interest/sympathy from international audience.

Because when you see for long running show like pokemon which lasts for 17 years being mostly known for:

1.) -keeping main characters in timeloop never seeming to progress forward with their story, barely mature, never age or make it look like learned lessons, moral values and experiences has poluted some results bringing them closer to final destination,.

Like its case with Ash character.

2.) -getting rid of traveling companions every time new region is introduced in favor of next one. Having their story left unfinished without ever getting chance to be explored to their full potential. And on top of that forgetting about them in anime which is apparently supposed to be continuity based show set in same timeline and universe following permanent main character and story which should build on itself but rarely does(often it goes backwards)?

Like they never existed, had any influence on franchise and story plot. Perfect example is Misty who disappeared from face of earth for past 9 yerars, May isn't in any better spot either and soon enough newer characters wil find themselves in same limbo. Defeating point behind inclusion of traveling companions in first place if their legacy is neutered , they never get follow upo on their own untold stories and have them abandoned and ignored for so long.

To the point of pokemon anime viewers not even knowing who they are, becoming completely irrelevant and outdated like their presence in history, contribution to main storyline and their own efforts and struggles, problems and pursued dreams were for nothimng becoming forgotten about.

Not sure how many follow twitter account about this but when even voice actiors like Mayumi Iizuka(Misty VA) express displease wishing that ex main characters dont remain forgotten, it reveals there is something awfully wrong with current formula writers practice in this show.

3.) -recourse to using past plots over and over again. Delivering same ideas and repetitive basic concept behind them(like whole background of fire starter being abandoned or neglected, Pikachu refusing to evolve, TR endlessly trying to catch Pikachu failing at it)rather than trying to deliver something more innovative. Making sure that each series is different, tries out new concepts increasing originality.

4.) -disbalance between advertizing games and making quality story itself.

Despite fact of being possible to have show which promotes video games, yet still has quality character development, more complex and substantial story which uses past and previous experiences as guidelines on which new ideas are constructed taking protagonists and plot quest forward.

And more continuity based anime which keeps all of its main characters relevant, gives recogniotion to previous regions and characters delivering follow up or their own subplots influencing new plots helping to build future. Filled with flashbacks, memory and past expertise being retained without resets involved.

Something which staff from pokemon in most cases dont provide.
All of this is reflection of makers of this entertainment product clearly not putting lot of effort, thought process and creatiuvity in it. Turning pokemon series is nothing more than 20 minute marketing ploy.

Something which wasn't so apparent before.

Sure pokemon anime was always primarily about games and their advertizing, but under batton of Takeshi Shudo in Original series and to extent in Hoenn pokemon felt more like its own individual medium.

It was treated like actual anime pervated with more consistent development and story paying attention to past and previous characters building on their growth along with Ashs. Takeshi Shudo(head writer for OS) even wanted to turn anime into family oriented anime with deep and well written story making each character crucial to plot playing part of some bigger joiurney. Until director and game producers rejected his ideas with series starting to become much more focused just on promotion with following and characters falling in second plan.

Original series always appeared to me as having more emotion, depth and originality, where human characters and their own personality and plots holded just as much if not even more porevalence than pokemon themselves.

Where more mature and deeper concepts of life were touched at times extending appeal to older audience(like messed up childhood or personality disorder issues leaving emotional scars on characters, death and selfquestioning of your own existence and purpose in world being introduced through beautifully illustrated Mewtwo background etc). And anime was filled with continuity, connections to past with each and every character being important and vital asset to storyline.

Giving out impression how writers and other people in chatge were more inspired, full of energy and determination to deliver more quality based product to its customers. Us, pokemon viewers.

This isn't just something to blame writers for, because fault cannot only be put on them but higher instances like directors and producers in charge who also dont care anymore for quality made product imposing restrictions and limitations which effectively prevent this anime from evolving and becoming more accessible and fun to follow not just for school kids, but older generations as well who for their loyalty are rewarded with nothing.

So even if writers themselves want to change something, they cannot do much without consent of those at higher positions(like chief director Yuyama Kunihiko or series directors which constantly change like Masamitsu Hidaka until BF, Sutou Norihiko until XY and as of lately Testuo Yajima ). Something ex head writer for OS Takeshi Shudo brought in his blogs explaining on often getting in clash with directors onot letting him to write for characters and story in way he wanted.