Fanfiction Lounge

[Act]

True, but your "pokémon journey" is basically the archetypal "hero's journey" in a box, and that's your classic coming of age tale right there. Child goes out into world to beat down opposition with cuddly critters and returns a man/woman, basically. I don't think of coming-of-age stories having any particular storyline, much less one that relies entirely upon character development, but rather as a genre in which the character fundamentally matures as a result of the plot, which I think fits most standard trainer 'fics quite well.

No character development in the sense of growth is required to complete the hero's journey, really. According to the cycle itself, a character 'succesfully' completes the journey when he shares the fruits of the plot with his 'home.' In a pokemon world, this could mean sharing the secrets of celebi with the folk of Cerulean, which surely a sue could accomplish.

On the other hand, a more interesting hero's journey would invovle a character learning about themselves and using this epiphany to reveal something to their people no one has seen before. This is definitely more CoA and requires more in depth character devlopment, but whether or not it is a 'coming of age story' depends on the context. I mean, you could have a very round character realize something without the whole story being focused on this realization. Some stories are just more plot-driven, and I think the type of fics you find in our fandom and true coming-of-age fics are kind of mutually exclusive... not to mention how broad the term OT is. In the ideal situation, of trainer wakes up gets pokemon and embarks on journey and the fic si well-written' OT might entail CoA. But there's so many sub-genres that fit the journey cycle yet don't require complex character development that I think they tend to be mutually exclusive.

And like you said... we're also making the assumption that it's a good, serious fic.

Sorry if that doesn't make much sense.

Personally, I'd rather find ways to work around my character's personal problems than make the story centered around

I'm not sure I understand the sense in that. The whole point of characters is that they have problems, and the plot is the resolution of these problems. Brushing aside personal-ity is essentially brushing aside characterization. Of course, an entire fic isn't a mope-fest, but it is a pretty essential part. You're also assuming 'problems' is angsty and emo, which isn't always the case.


EDIT: I feel like Joe Campbell might be turning over in his grave right now as we apply him to Pokemon fanfic

 

[Negrek]

I'm not sure I agree with that. After all, you can't have "apotheosis" without having a fundamental shift in a character's understanding of the world. It's true that you can have the character seek something like arcane knowledge as their "ultimate boon," but they almost always must change who they are before they are able to truly acquire it. In a badly-written 'fic, sure, I could see you coming back to your village the same old perky perfect person, now equipped with teh sword of uberawesome, but in anything even halfway realistic characters are markedly different when returning from the end of a quest than they were upon leaving, even if what they sought was something mundane and material. Otherwise, there would be no real satisfaction to the end of a story.

But I think we may be defining coming-of-age in two different ways. I consider it to be any story in which a character's perception of themselves and their world is significantly altered. While this does require some character study, it's basically just as a result of natural reactions to the quest elements and often appears secondary to the "main plot" until the end. However, you sound like you're talking about something much more dedicated; I would argue that any story in which the character makes a fundamental realization about themselves or the world is coming-of-age, and I think you almost specifically stated that that's not what you're talking about. I think I would label what you seem to be getting at "character study" or something. In any case, I think there's a conflict of definitions at work here.

 

[Dragonfree]

I like character-driven stories. I'm not good at plotting, although I have found myself to have an almost uncanny ability to weasel out of even the most hopeless of plot holes with some obscure explanation made up in retrospect. This, however, makes for more of a mess than a plot (see The Quest for the Legends), and making a whole, complete, sensible and intriguing plot beforehand without such weaseling is just something I can't really do. I actually surprised myself this NaNoWriMo by being able to write 50,000 words around a couple of character arcs, but half of the loose plot of that more or less just came into being by itself as a result of the characters' interactions with one another.

Really, I think that if I have a future as a professional writer, I will be writing books that are created as simply a group of characters in situation X whose interactions with one another and their situation slowly make up some semblance of a storyline as I go along. That, really, is what I've been doing with most of my fics aside from The Quest for the Legends.

 

[JX Valentine]

Does anyone find it annoying that I keep backpedaling, by the way? XD

Seeing as I've just brought up the themes of Pokemon, random question: How important is it to you to capture the "feel" or "theme" of the canon material you are writing from, and more importantly, how do you define those terms?

I completely agree with Negrek. That is, the theme or feel of the original canon isn't quite as important, particularly because it might needlessly restrict the author into writing only a certain genre. For example, the Pokemon anime is all about happy, fluffy, "let's all be friends" sort of stuff, even the movies when everything's said and done. While you could write about that (and, by all means, go ahead and do so), the major point of fanfiction is to explore themes that aren't brought up in original canon. So, if you want to write about, for example, the fact that as a mouse, Pikachu will die sometime before Ash, then the theme of "we all live in a happy, happy world where everyone's friends forever" shouldn't stop you from doing so.

However, there's a difference between keeping canon and keeping the theme of canon. While, yes, it's contradictory in some places (even within itself -- hi, anime Team Rocket backstory), out of respect (considering you're setting out to write fanfiction as a fan and therefore will most likely need to respect canon for the obvious reason that violating it doesn't fully express your ultimate goal of doing it out of fan's love), it's a good idea to avoid violating canon. That is, don't defy the obvious like, for an actual example of a headdesk-worthy fanfiction that's floating out there, having Charizard use Explosion for the sake of convenience.

There may be some exceptions where, for example, the canon is self-contradictory (Team Rocket, whut?) or if you want to do a little canon cocktailing, but otherwise, I just don't like the idea of ignoring canon for the sake of ignoring canon.

 

[Astinus]

That is, don't defy the obvious like, for an actual example of a headdesk-worthy fanfiction that's floating out there, having Charizard use Explosion for the sake of convenience.

Or a Scizor learning Crabhammer? D=

Seeing as I've just brought up the themes of Pokemon, random question: How important is it to you to capture the "feel" or "theme" of the canon material you are writing from, and more importantly, how do you define those terms?

I write in what I consider to be animeverse (since a character that I write about doesn't exist in any other canon and there are more towns and cities for me to blow up), but my story doesn't follow the happy go-lucky feel of the anime. I just respect the ideas presented in the anime canon (like TM moves are actually taught to the Pokemon through training, rather than with the aid of CDs). But never would I completely disregard canon in any way by doing something as moronic as Exploding a Charizard because I can't think of a more creative way for my character to win a battle. It's just that it's the animeverse I like exploring more than manga or game verses.

 

[txteclipse]

I say that fan-made material should be easily recognizable as derived from the canon material. In other words, someone should be able to pic up your work, read a bit, and think "pokemon" or whatever the canon happens to be.

That said, I think the sword cuts both ways. It is possible to be TOO much like the canon, in which case no creativity happens. You need to basically use the created world you're working from to your advantage, and make it into something of your own.

As a rule of thumb, I would also say that you have to match the story with the canon. I.E. you wouldn't use pokemon to write something where the characters say the F word every other line and lots of people die horrible, bloody deaths. That just doesn't sit right with me. Just like you wouldn't use the Terminator movies as a canon to write a children's book, you have to find the limits of the canon and not exceed them.

 

[JX Valentine]

Or a Scizor learning Crabhammer? D=

Yeah, but at least that had some sort of vague logic to it in that although it ignored actual canon or how moves actually work, the kid thought Scizor + claw = "I can hit things with my claw!" So, in a way, it's understandable how he could think that, even though he's missing the point that regardless, Scizor can't learn Crabhammer, especially if the only reason it's being given that move in fanfiction is because it's the easy way out of solving a problem in the storyline.

However, the Exploding Charizard that actually knocked out several Haunter and Gastly at once just wins the Failing Game over a Crabhammering Scizor for several more levels of blowing off canon, I think. XD

So, uh, I guess the lesson is if you're going to write a serious fanfiction, it's always a good idea to make sure it makes sense in terms of canon. Or anything at all.

 

[Sike_Saner]

Seeing as I've just brought up the themes of Pokemon, random question: How important is it to you to capture the "feel" or "theme" of the canon material you are writing from, and more importantly, how do you define those terms?

I'm not really very concerned with being faithful to canon. I follow it in places, but I deviate from it in others--though not so far as to, say, have a Wooper evolve into a Probopass or anything like that. No Chari-bombs, either. XP (Charizard using Explosion is definitely one of the funniest things I've "heard" lately, I must say. XD) I don't think I stay true to the "feel" of the canon much, if at all; a lot of my stuff's quite a bit darker than that. o.o;

Just because canon doesn't go there, doesn't mean that a fan can't, or even shouldn't.

Agreed. ^^

 

[Saffire Persian]

However, the Exploding Charizard that actually knocked out several Haunter and Gastly at once just wins the Failing Game over a Crabhammering Scizor for several more levels of blowing off canon, I think. XD

If you go with game canon, you can *technically* have your exploding dragon. I'm pretty sure it can learn Mimic. :p

 

[Astinus]

Even if Charizard can learn Mimic (which I have no clue about), Mimic copies a move made by another opponent in the battle. I've seen the fanfic that Jax is talking about, and there were no other Explosions in the battle. That fanfic did have a host of other problems other than Explosions that knocked out Ghost-types.

I.E. you wouldn't use pokemon to write something where the characters say the F word every other line and lots of people die horrible, bloody deaths. That just doesn't sit right with me.

Pokemon MASTER was the fic that came to my mind after reading your post, txteclipse. While there aren't F-bombs every sentence, there are violent deaths and sexual themes (from what I remember when I read it a few years ago). Different people write different things involving different fandoms. You would be surprised at what you find in fanfiction or fanart in fandoms. People see the world in different ways.

 

[Dragonfree]

In my mind, there's nothing wrong with exploring a different mood than canon does. Just because what we see of the Pokémon world in the animé is rather happy-go-lucky, how does that mean the entire rest of it has to be as well? After all, you can take a cross-section of the real world where everything is happy-go-lucky and then take another one where it's not, while staying within the same universe.

So, if you want to write about, for example, the fact that as a mouse, Pikachu will die sometime before Ash, then the theme of "we all live in a happy, happy world where everyone's friends forever" shouldn't stop you from doing so.

...Dang it, Jax. Now I want to write a fic about Pikachu dying of old age. D:

 

[Alter Ego]

Aaagh...never a dull moment in the FF lounge; what's being discussed here now?

Ahh...canon loyalty and genres. Oh, and angsty/dark stuff too by the looks of it. :3

Well, I enjoy angst as much as the next person -- okay, the next person would probably not be too wrong in arguing that I actually enjoy it a lot more than they do, but it's a figure of speech -- but there's a limit to everything, you know. Maybe it's because of my experiences from RPing (Because really, basically every RPer on these boards has been an angst whore at some point of their writing, though fortunately most of us grow up and move on) but after reading page upon page of how a person is doing nothing but angsting you really start wishing that they'd just can the whine and get on with their lives already. I don't mind some problems. Heck, I expect to see some problems and insecurities, but I just think it should be more than just plunging from one huge personal dilemma to the next. It's like...not every obstacle a character comes across needs to be a huge personal struggle for them, you know?

That being said, prancing through happy sunshine land for the whole duration of the story isn't any better. There should be a balance in there.

Anyways, genres...well, I've never really been any good at categorizing things like this. OT fics have always been my guilty little pleasure, but as has already been noted, those can branch into all sorts of things. (Part of why I love them too) And I do like the realistic/darker takes on the pokémon world, provided that they are done in good taste and really build up their case well (as opposed to a slapdash angstfest). I also have a thing for mythology and folklore and basically always end up using them (can't resist making up traditions and such) at some point, so I suppose that would swing me towards fantasy type settings? Really, though, I don't think genre when I write; I just do what I feel like doing and leave the categorizing for someone else.

Concerning canon matters...I tend to limit my use of canon material as much as possible. The whole pokémon anime and manga tangle is just too much for me to sort out, so I typically go for the new region thing; it's cliché, sure, but it gives me a lot more space to operate and given my like for fake mythology and folklore and dislike for using core characters that's a big plus in my book. When it comes to the rules of the pokémon universe I use the pokédex as my primary guide and games for the strengths and weakness of the pokémon, because the anime does too many things that are just plain stupid and my manga material is limited at best. But yeah, pokémon has a pretty loose canon so I adapt as I see fit. The happy sunshine world is too simplistic for my tastes. xP

And incidentally, Mimic is one of those moves that basically every pokémon except Magikarp, Beldum, and Unown can learn but I still can't picture how you mimic a technique to blow yourself up, or a pokémon who would be willing to do it for that matter. x.O It's sort of the same thing as with Toxic; it's just lobbed everywhere without any proper explanation for why pokémon can learn it.

 

[Saffire Persian]

And incidentally, Mimic is one of those moves that basically every pokémon except Magikarp, Beldum, and Unown can learn but I still can't picture how you mimic a technique to blow yourself up, or a pokémon who would be willing to do it for that matter. x.O It's sort of the same thing as with Toxic; it's just lobbed everywhere without any proper explanation for why pokémon can learn it.

I actually can't see it blowing itself up even with Mimic, either. But I remember the fun Pokémon Stadium days when my Mimic-happy Persian would Fly. XD In fact, I think it was the Rental Persian that knew Mimic. I loved the critical hit ratios of the original Stadium.

 

[Scytheteen]

I think it's time I try out my first One-Shot (hence the new banner). I plan on making it an actual fic once P: SN is finished, which is no time soon. So yeah, prepare for a long wait for the next chapter guys :( (Unless I start writing now).

Spoiler:

I'm never going to catch up...

Glajummy, a one-shot!? O.o. I'm reviewing that

I actually can't see it blowing itself up even with Mimic, either. But I remember the fun Pokémon Stadium days when my Mimic-happy Persian would Fly. XD In fact, I think it was the Rental Persian that knew Mimic. I loved the critical hit ratios of the original Stadium.

Lawls @ flying persian.

 

[JX Valentine]

If you go with game canon, you can *technically* have your exploding dragon. I'm pretty sure it can learn Mimic. :p

True, but the author unfortunately didn't think of that and attempted to teach his Charizard the actual move of Explosion. And then, of course, he proceeded to use it to lay a smackdown on entire gangs of Ghost-types, which would've been hilarious if he went with game logic and had that tactic fail. XD

If you'd like to see the actual fic, feel free to PM me for it. It's full of incredible moments like that as well as I Am Author; I Am God Syndrome.

 

[Duncan McNeil]

Heh, this place got busy real fast. :) The canon? I (like most people) have ripped it to shreads. Why not? It's a fan fiction. So why should we be bound by canon? Sure, canon should (usually) be followed to a certain degree. Ah, whatever.

I actually can't see it blowing itself up even with Mimic, either. But I remember the fun Pokémon Stadium days when my Mimic-happy Persian would Fly. XD In fact, I think it was the Rental Persian that knew Mimic. I loved the critical hit ratios of the original Stadium.

XD I remember that! I spent all kinds of time messing with Mimic. Non-flying Pokemon always look hilarious flying, don't they? :D The critical-hits were fun, too. XD

 

[Yamato-san]

Pokemon MASTER was the fic that came to my mind after reading your post, txteclipse. While there aren't F-bombs every sentence, there are violent deaths and sexual themes (from what I remember when I read it a few years ago). Different people write different things involving different fandoms. You would be surprised at what you find in fanfiction or fanart in fandoms. People see the world in different ways.

exactly. I mean, doujinshi fandom is just loaded with hentai of various series (several of which clearly aren't meant for such a thing), and some are actually pretty well-done. I think someone earlier said it best: Pokemon is an extremely expansive media. There is so much to it in the form of video games, anime, manga, all of which feature a variety of content. Sure, for a lot of it, it focuses on travel, befriending wildlife, and friendly competition, but some official mediums will contradict even this much. Aside from most of the mediums featuring a save-the-world plot at some point, the Game Cube RPGs involve a character trying to stop the spread of corrupted Pokemon within a rather small area rather than journeying to compete in a tournament, while games like Pokemon Ranger, Pokemon Trozei!, and Pokemon Snap (as well as several anime episodes) don't even put focus on the Trainer profession (for that matter, Trozei! features a rather unusual art style and characters in comparison to other games).

You can't even view Pokemon as animals when you've got games like Mystery Dungeon and manga like Pipipi Adventure portraying them as humanistic beings capable of speech (the anime and Special manga will also tend to portray them in a humanistic fashion), and the Pokemon don't even need to be super-powered (another distinguishing trait they have) if they're just walking around acting cute (Pokemon Channel), being collected (Trozei!), or merely being photographed in the wild, for the most part (Snap). Hell, even the Pocket Monsters' namesake is eliminated completely when they're not being captured or carried around in convenient portable capsules (quite often they're not portrayed this way, though I guess one specific example of this would be Mystery Dungeon... speaking of MD, I should point out how serious its story seems to be. The sequel even features character deaths, from what I understand). Let's not forget about the Dengeki! Pikachu manga, which not only features some of the most realistic Pokemon designs you can find, but also manage to be a lot more violent and sexually risque than the rest of the franchise (though still managing to fall under the demograph of your average shounen manga).

I should remind everyone that every single thing I have just mentioned is all official. While the demographic seems to never exceed late tweens, probably due to Nintendo's standards (Zelda, Metroid, and Fire Emblem are probably the darkest and most mature franchises to their name), it nonetheless proves that Pokemon canon is extremely flexible. Probably the only thing that makes Pokemon Pokemon is the Pokemon themselves (and even then, derivative works can focus on the human characters). That said, there's absolutely nothing wrong if someone wanted to feature Pokemon in dark, tragic, gory, erotic, or any type of heavily serious or mature scenarios. It's probably beyond the usual Nintendo standards, but seeing as it's unpublished fanworks, isn't that something which should be taken advantage of?

Besides, Pokemon has a lot of untapped potential within its canon just waiting to be used, a lot of serious themes yet to be explored. I, for instance, plan to use my long-running doujin series to focus on humans dominating over all other species through their advancements in technology, as well as the idea that they're capable of controlling, and even creating (Mewtwo), god-like beings. My hentai, meanwhile, focuses on how journeying could affect a relationship. Another rather prominent theme in my doujinshi: I'll tend to tone down the importance of Pokemon and especially Pokemon training, even when the canon seems to have established such things as serious business. While the idea of superpowered biology that humans can control is certainly nothing to take lightly, one must remember that people in that world are still capable of having lives which don't heavily revolve around animals (and while I make no attempts to change the fact that people can travel as young as ten, I'll often give characters reasoning to never travel until their teens, namely after graduating high school. This is assuming they desire to travel at all).

EDIT: Almost forget, I will say this about canon: I personally oppose using fan-made Pokemon in my stories. I say that since canon has given us a lot to work with as is, and it really helps to make things a lot less complicated than they need to be (a select few might say not making up your own Pokemon is lazy, but honestly, if we didn't want to write with what we're given with, we wouldn't be doing derivative works in the first place, now would we?).

 

[JX Valentine]

It's a fan fiction. So why should we be bound by canon?

A lot of fanfiction authors tend to use this explanation for raping canon, but I just don't understand why. Sure, fanfiction, to a degree, is about exploring ideas that haven't been explored in canon (like, for example, hot Ash x Brock lovin'), but the reason why anyone should respect canon is because it's fanfiction. That fan part basically means that you're going into it with the idea that you want to express your love for the fandom as a fan, not as the original creator for the work who can take whatever liberties he wants with the canon he's actually created himself. To not respect as many elements of canon as you possibly can within your writing just seems like a contradiction to the fact that it's a fan activity. So, the question becomes: Why wouldn't you be?

That doesn't mean, of course, that you should be bound in terms of creativity. Some of the best fanfics I've ever read keep in mind as much canon as they can fit in for what they're using (e.g. if they have a new trainer story set in Hoenn, then they don't try to write Wallace as an idiot for the sake of having a story) while figuring out ways around the obstacle that is canon. Sure, canon tends to provide a lot of elements for you, but that just means it takes a little more effort to figure out how to use canon in your story and make your story seem like something fresh and different.

Of course, that's a general view that applies mostly to the "no duh" elements -- Pokemon moves, characterization of figures in Pokemon and other fandoms, events (unless you're talking about AU, and even then, there's a whole set of rules regarding what separates a good AU from a really bad one), et cetera. As in, the pretty obvious details. Canon might also cover a lot of other stuff, like the implicit stuff that are there but might be interpreted several different ways while not really being accepted as fanon (like what one would make of the fact that Misty's following Ash -- could be a crush, could be just for her bike, could be to make sure Ash doesn't do something else that's stupid).

I really hope that all made sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's several layers of canon. Out of a fan's respect, you shouldn't violate the explicit stuff and even a tiny bit of the implicit stuff (like how certain characters would react -- a la Ash suddenly becoming a cold-hearted jerk for no apparent reason... which is why I didn't read too far into Pokemon MASTER, personally, although I like the idea of a darkfic), but if you go into the stuff that could be interpreted several different ways (including tone, although I still think that's a Ponyta of a different color), then you're treading on uncertain territory.

And then you have canon cocktailing, or the act of mixing canon in order to bring in the points from one canon into the universe of another. This tends to happen with Pokemon especially, given its vast types of canon and the fact that more information about certain characters tends to be provided in one form of media more than another. For example, the anime's rendition of Steven barely touches on who he is, but Wallace practically tells you his life story in Emerald. I tend to go back and forth with it because there are points where borrowing elements from another universe doesn't really interfere with the canon you're working with. (At the risk of being predictable and making an example of my favorite character, giving the anime version of Bill two sisters. The anime makes no mention of his family, but the games do. So, by doing that, it's not really violating canon because there's nothing to contradict.)

On the other hand, canon cocktailing might be, according to the strictest canon nazis, a violation because it means that an author can take any element from other canon and insert it into a story so that, for example, Ash Ketchum suddenly has Red's personality. So, I'd like to hear what other people have to say about canon cocktailing. Should it be done? Is it canon violation? What sort of restrictions would you think come with canon cocktailing so that it's separated from canon violation if you don't think it is?

 

[Scytheteen]

I slightly edited chapter four if anyone cares

 

[Astinus]

I'm all right with canon mixing with restrictions. For instance, I think that it's fine you gave anime!Bill two sisters since he has sisters in the game and no history at all in the anime. So you used the history provided elsewhere to give him a history in the verse you wrote him in.

(My question is, how did you decide to deal with his accent? In the games, he doesn't have any; in the anime, he's British; and in the manga, he's a American Southern boy(which I don't know if that was in the original). All three are different, and I wish to hear what you decided and how.)

Canon mixing is not okay when you violate what's already given. For instance, it's not okay to say that anime!Ash caught a Fearow or Espeon when he so clearly didn't just because Ash from Ono's manga or Red from G/S/C had that Pokemon on the team. That would be violating canon.

But to fill in what's missing? Then it is fine to mix. Because's there no history to go against it and no one can prove you wrong.