Garchomp is broken ?

[luke]

Let's keep this on the discussion of Garchomp's tier placement, not grammar people.

 

[ABYAY]

lol we can do what Smogon did and put Garchomp in the Limbo tier list.

Garchomp's stats are just absurd for its class. If they would've decreased HP for speed, then he'd be like the god of OU. (Honchkrow would probably also be in OU if that happened to him and if he was given better moves.)

Remaining on topic, Garchomp covers his only two weak spots very well from STAB users (Fire/SE for Ice, Dragon for well, Dragon) He's also granted resistance against the common T-Wave. His defenses are above average, and it's just a huge force. That and Cresselia are the two forces I fear, along with the uncommon Snorlax, but I'm resolving that issue.

 

[Anti]

SDchomp is walled by bulky waters (EVed correctly, of course). Very few Ice types stand a chance against Garchomp at all (not to mention STAB Earthquake does more anyways), so I would say the covering it's weaknesses thing is...well...overrated. Like everything in my mind is.

My one (and this is the ONE) concern I have is that every Garchomp set can be countered. While countering them is an epic chore with Sand Veil and its unpredictability, Garchomp has been OU long enough that we have shown it can be beaten. You could say that the CB set isn't countered by anything, but you can say that about other CBers as well, and many of them also have other movesets and movepool options.

You could make the case that all Garchomp sets can be handled by more than a few standard pokemon.

That being said, I am leaning more towards the "uber" argument. I just don't think that making decisions at an impulse (not to say research and critical thinking hasn't been done - it has) is a very good idea (just look at what happened with our friend Wobbuffet). At least Garchomp won't hammer the uber metagame like Wobby has hammered standard play though...but that's a whole other story.

I just wanted to state a counter-argument since I do think that before making a decision we should look at this from all angles possible. I actually agree with it going to ubers, but I don't feel as strongly as the others do.

 

[sims796]

Neither do I. I mean, we've all beaten our fair share of Chomps, but that doesn't really make it, you know, not uber. I mean, I beat a kid with a hacked Gritinia...with my Noctowl. It was embarassing. It has nothing to do with Chomp, I just always wanted to share that.

Despite them having the movepool, they just aren't as bulky as Chomp to place him in the same category as the rest. You and your overrated. Damn you. Damn you all.

Regardless (damn you all), I'm still not to rush it to uber, since it has been beat plenty of times. However, we should be grateful that he lacks a priority move.

 

[ABYAY]

Here's my last statement (still needs limbo tier!)

Garchomp is basically loaded with everything with few counters, but it's not an invincible machine. I see Garchomps fall in battle a decent bit after their type is recognized. Also, there's those all-known bad switch-in moments and underestimation of your opponent.

If it HAD to be OU or Uber, then OU is its place. I know this may sound like I'm arguing against my last post, but OU can take this thing on.

 

[sims796]

Just because we've seen it fall, doesn't mean it belongs in OU. As said, it has no counters.Even Swampert gets 2HKO'ed, so it's not even a reliable switch in. Someting must lose in order to revenge kill. I feel the metagame is just getting used to Chomp, and we will soon see it rise to more unreasonable standards.

 

[Outlawed]

20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

 

[Xairmo]

20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

I agree. I mean if you're gonna throw Garchomp into Uber then you might as well throw Dragonite up there! I mean after a single Dragon Dance, Dragonite can take down 2-4 pokes with Outrage! I think sending a normal poke such as Garchomp to the Uber tier because some people cant take it down is so absurd. I think to do something like this will just suck the fun right out of the game >.> I mean what next? Blissey? Or Skarmory? Garchomp is by no mean unstoppable.

 

[sims796]

20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

What? Are you crazy? Frosslass can't switch into ANYTHING that Chomp throws. Maybe you should re-read those post, especially the first.The fact that he FORCES you to use luck in order to hope and win is the major trouble. 20% evasion is significant, and that miss WILL cost you the match. On top of the fact that we are all forced to use CB Donphans, which is a pretty lousy wall. How stupid do you think the Chomp user is? If it was that easy to beat, we wouldn't have 2 pages or somethin' worth of post.

EDIT:You guys really aren't thinking of why we are all saying why he should be uber. You are giving half made counter arguments. Furthermore, you are ignoring the reasons of why he belongs there. Read the first post.

Yeah, ive wanted to bring this up for a while, i want opinions on the matter, not a flame war. I want a debate, should this thing be moved up to uber ? . However, Read the whole post before posting/or saying stupid things like "Liek zomg, Garchump is easy i beat it with a mudkip !111", In fact read the whole post before posting. Period.

Here is a little reference for you guys not reading the first post, then making some half arsed argument.

 

[Melody]

Listen, No matter how you toss the dice. No matter what numbers, stats, or movesets you throw at it...Every pokemon has a flaw.
From the UU class to the Ubers class, Every pokemon has weaknesses. Sure, you can spend all of your time debating that garchomp is broken. But in reality what pokemon isnt 'broken' in some way.

In my opinion people use the Uber class to trash what actually works.
In other words...THE WHOLE GOSH DARN TIER SYSTEM IS FLAWED!

Seriously. I laugh at the tier system. It's why I got out of the batting scene. It ruins the whole point of a battle. Why draw a battle out by hobbling yourself?

Anyhow back ontopic. Sending garchomp to the ubers pile essentially tells everyone that the average trainer cant handle it. If that's the case then there is a sad sad future for pokemon battling indeed.

 

[Angelic Diablo]

I think that there should be a tier for pokemon that are too good for OU, but can't be used in ubers... like Wobby, that thing is single handedly changing the OU environment simply because it can't handle a Specs Mewtwo Shadow Ball etc.

Blissey was under consideration for ubers btw, it's just Nasty Plot and Choice Specs and not to mention Focus Blast and Close Combat kinda changed that. Blissey isn't THE special wall for nothing.

(Not trying to change this to moving Blissey to ubers btw)

 

[_Prince_]

I agree. I mean if you're gonna throw Garchomp into Uber then you might as well throw Dragonite up there! I mean after a single Dragon Dance, Dragonite can take down 2-4 pokes with Outrage! I think sending a normal poke such as Garchomp to the Uber tier because some people cant take it down is so absurd. I think to do something like this will just suck the fun right out of the game >.> I mean what next? Blissey? Or Skarmory? Garchomp is by no mean unstoppable.

If Garchomp gets kicked out of the OU tier, I see Dragonite taking its place. I actually fear Dragonite more than Garchomp. I have been swept by Dragonite more times than Garchomp has swept my team.

However, Garchomp doesn't really have a proper counter, so that really dents its chances staying in OU.

 

[Hadim Sinan Pasha]

it shouldn't be banned from ou and be classified as Uber as it isn't. it's still weak to Ice-type moves. what if you had a poke with an ice type move and scarf. also, yes, DA, i've heard of the Yache berry but still, x2 damage isn't that bad. defense wise, yes Chomp is broken but not broken enough.

 

[_Prince_]

it shouldn't be banned from ou and be classified as Uber as it isn't. it's still weak to Ice-type moves. what if you had a poke with an ice type move and scarf. also, yes, DA, i've heard of the Yache berry but still, x2 damage isn't that bad. defense wise, yes Chomp is broken but not broken enough.

Right... ice type move and scaf'ed? Ya really think that Garchomp won't switch out? Unless if was stuck in outrage, then yeah, that would work after it has killed your previous pokemon. ;)

 

[Ársa]

Listen, No matter how you toss the dice. No matter what numbers, stats, or movesets you throw at it...Every pokemon has a flaw.
From the UU class to the Ubers class, Every pokemon has weaknesses. Sure, you can spend all of your time debating that garchomp is broken. But in reality what pokemon isnt'broken' in some way.

In my opinion people use the Uber class to trash what actually works.
In other words...THE WHOLE GOSH DARN TIER SYSTEM IS FLAWED!

Seriously. I laugh at the tier system. It's why I got out of the batting scene. It ruins the whole point of a battle. Why draw a battle out by hobbling yourself?

Anyhow back ontopic. Sending garchomp to the ubers pile essentially tells everyone that the average trainer cant handle it. If that's the case then there is a sad sad future for pokemon battling indeed.

Let me see...

"ZOMG! FEAR Rattata is broken because it is guaranteed a KO!"

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S

 

[sims796]

Let me see...

"ZOMG! FEAR Rattata is broken because it is guaranteed a KO!"

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S

The biggest problem is, too many people aren't thinking. For instaance, in Colum's post, which was widely flawed in so many ways imaginable, it's a prime example of someone not thinking of the consiquences. They aren't looking at the first post, and are constantly posting crap, because they didn't look at the first post. Nor are they looking at the facts of what Garchomp can do. They all want to make some stupid post "ZOMG,
HEZ WEEK 2 EYC TEYPS!", really sounding like idiots. I bet everyone saying Garchomp isn't uber didn't even look at Tortured wonderful post above me. It's not about the average trainer not being able to handle it, get off that hippie BS. It's about him literally being a cut above everything else, which is not fair.

And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

Deoxys-Defense@Brightpowder
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.

 

[_Prince_]

And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

Deoxys-Defense@Brightpowder
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.

Hmm... If it's 1 on 1 then ...

Zangoose
Taunt
SwordsDance
Shadow claw ( + good crit chance)
Crush Claw/Return

 

[sims796]

Rebember, Double Team has most likely been used, and whenever you're (puny) hits connect, it won't do much, and he can Recover off the damages. And you know more than I that it's never one on one. This is the ultimate haxed staller, only beaten by Taunt, and if it already have Substitute up, it's over.

This set is for anyone bawing over tier list, and not realizing what Chomp is made of.

 

[Ársa]

The biggest problem is, too many people aren't thinking. For instaance, in Colum's post, which was widely flawed in so many ways imaginable, it's a prime example of someone not thinking of the consiquences. They aren't looking at the first post, and are constantly posting crap, because they didn't look at the first post. Nor are they looking at the facts of what Garchomp can do. They all want to make some stupid post "ZOMG,
HEZ WEEK 2 EYC TEYPS!", really sounding like idiots. I bet everyone saying Garchomp isn't uber didn't even look at Tortured wonderful post above me. It's not about the average trainer not being able to handle it, get off that hippie BS. It's about him literally being a cut above everything else, which is not fair.

And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

Deoxys-Defense@Brightpowder
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.

Thankyou sims. ;)

Seriously people, listen. sims, Dark_Azelf, Anti-Pop and Syaoran are experienced in these matters. All they are asking is that you read the front post. Please do this before you post some crap that will most likely get you flamed...

On another note sims, I have found one major flaw.

If you don't have Stealth Rock/Spikes/T-Spikes support up, there is one very easy way to deal with it.

KEEP SWITCHING OUT

You cannot PP stall your opponent if they don't attack. It makes the match impossible, but eventually your opponent will need to switch, unless they want to be there for hours. The Deoxys will eventually stall itself out...

btw, you still have "Lost" in your friend list. I've given that account the nudge, this one is my main one, as it is the "known" one. :P (If you want to change it. ;))


~T_S

 

[sims796]

Thankyou sims. ;)

Seriously people, listen. sims, Dark_Azelf, Anti-Pop and Syaoran are experienced in these matters. All they are asking is that you read the front post. Please do this before you post some crap that will most likely get you flamed...

On another note sims, I have found one major flaw.

If you don't have Stealth Rock/Spikes/T-Spikes support up, there is one very easy way to deal with it.

KEEP SWITCHING OUT

You cannot PP stall your opponent if they don't attack. It makes the match impossible, but eventually your opponent will need to switch, unless they want to be there for hours. The Deoxys will eventually stall itself out...

~T_S

Then they would eat Toxic every turn. You'd lose this stall war far before he does. And he can indeed learn Spikes, so...

Remember, this is one of many pokes that is on a team. Don't tell me you guys stopped thinking as well. There are 5 more pokes to deal with, this being one of many. You can swap Cosmic Power for Reflect, even.