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Gladion

pkmin3033

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    GF have been attempting to push a story-focused narrative in Pokemon since Gen V, and by now they really should have learned a thing or two about how to actually do that. When they're recycling the same plot they've been using since Gen III, focus is clearly intended to be on characterisation, and in all ways here they are falling short. Maybe it isn't necessary, since the games sell regardless, but that they have learned nothing is disheartening.

    Although honestly, I wouldn't pick Gladion for having an expanded role either, if they were serious about proper character development. His type has been in the games so many times now, and there isn't much to him I think they could add, short of resetting him completely.
     
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    pkmin3033

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    Then why the shift in focus? Why the sudden sidelining of the player character and the constant, ceaseless shoving of NPCs in our face? I think the argument of showing off features of the game goes out the window when you consider how on-rails SM was, and the fact that you could rename the games to Pokemon: Lillie Version. Of course, this could be because SM were rushed, and USUM will have more refined features, but honestly I think it more likely we'll get a greater focus on NPCs again than anything else.

    ...probably because the player would have missed all those features if they hadn't of drawn attention to them, given how focused on NPCs the game was. I got a definite sense of "You can't explore because we're going to funnel you down this linear stage-based island experience with these NPCs, but you can do this if you want to!" feel from SM's features. Which weren't stellar to begin with. I mean, the interface for Festival Plaza, come on, GF...
     

    pkmin3033

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    I would say all Pokemon has had are cardboard NPCs. This is precisely why I do not find them appealing: all that has changed is the frequency of their appearance. There is no progression, just more of the same. I suppose if we didn't have the current formula we might ask why they haven't changed up their approach, but...well, they haven't changed up their approach. Same cardboard NPCs, just appearing more often. That isn't a positive change. To keep it relevant, you could put Gladion in the second gen games, or the third, or whatever, and nothing would be different apart from the fact that he'd pop up more often. There is no progression. I know that is a subjective matter, but...well, yeah.

    I see your point, but if they want to push features like that, why are they pushing story instead? The features in SM felt very secondary because you were barely afforded enough time to really explore them. There was a constant rush on, and a need to drive the player through the story as quickly as possible. Honestly though, I think how/if they expand the features in USUM will determine where their focus is for Gen VII because, as I said, SM were very threadbare, and without a similar comparison it's difficult to tell if that was intentional or due to rushed development for the 20th Anniversary. I would like to think it was the latter. But I won't discount the former until I see what USUM does to improve upon those lacking features.
     

    Alexander18

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    SM are not games focused on Lillie or Gladion. They are focused on your character. Gladion deserves an expanded role. Also he made more progression than lillie ever did. That is why Gladion has more purpose in the games.
     

    pkmin3033

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    I lost my original post and had to type this out again so sorry if it sucks, thank you PC for crashing

    More is not always better, and frequency of appearance is not really progressive change. The quality of the NPCs has not improved even marginally, is my point. Less is sometimes more - I mean, a lot of NPCs who aren't central to the story of games get massive amounts of popularity because they ooze personality through their dialogue and design, or whatever. The more you see a character, the better you get to know them, but if there is nothing about them that is really worth knowing...it falls flat. It fell VERY flat with pretty much every major NPC from Gen V onwards, because GF forgot to give these characters actual personalities. In the old days it wasn't a problem, ecause it was VERY clear where the focus was. Now that they're drawing attention to this by including them more often, it's becoming more and more apparent how shoddy the quality of that really is.

    I honestly don't think GF does know what it's doing, because the player is having to hunt for these mechanics, or they're getting minimal focus or explanation - remember the battle styles in Gen V? How about sky battles in Gen VI? - and instead we're getting bogged down in the same story again with banal dialogue with NPCs that are about as interesting as the townspeople who just repeat the same 2-3 lines of dialogue each and every time you talk to them. I realise it's a matter of perspective as to whether the NPCs are better or not. But they can't cower behind the "focus on the gameplay!" excuse any more when that gameplay is getting minimal exposure in amongst the banal dialogue. The games have not changed, but the FOCUS of the games has, and it's suffering for it unless you can tune it right out, which you shouldn't have to do, because if they're going to change the focus they should put some effort in. Effort is not "we'll just have these NPCs appear more often and say more than 2-3 lines". Yeah, they know the gameplay is what sells the games. So they ignore it because they can afford to and push the weakest part of Pokemon games - the story and characters - repeatedly in our faces. It's unnecessary, alright.

    Although yes, I will agree that it is unlikely Gladion will get any significant development because of this, meaning he'll remain one more bland design in hundreds of other bland designs, without any personality whatsoever. That doesn't make him any worse than the rest of them, but it definitely does not make him better.
     

    pkmin3033

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    This entire thing is subjective, and at the end of the day it comes down entirely to whether or not the writing in the games appeals to you. I'm guessing for you, it does. Me, though? If they're going to push these NPCs repeatedly, I expect them to be able to justify that with quality writing and character development. The sole thing that sticks out for Pokemon NPCs, to me, is design. None of them have even a shred of identity beyond what they look like, and when they reoccur continually and that still happens, it gets worse. It shows just how little thought was put into them. You can throw as many examples of change as you like, but it remains that all you're seeing is the beginning and the end. How they started, and how they end up. You never see the middle. How can you have development without those transitional stage? People don't just change. They might as well be two different characters, because the only thing that links them together is their design. Oh sure, they show up throughout the game, but all that changes is their Pokemon. That's not really development for them as characters.

    Line up any number of different characters from the Pokemon franchise and you can probably name them easily enough. But take some quotes from some of their lines in game and see how many you can name. They have no defining, standout moments, or clearly defined personalities, outside of that aesthetic design. They're just hollow shells with more than 2-3 lines of dialogue, and that is not necessarily a good thing. If Pokemon needed that, the franchise likely would have never gotten off the ground, because it never used to have it.

    You don't need to know anything about a character's backstory to appreciate them, no. But they disappear, and then they come back with a marginally different tone to their dialogue, with no explanation for how that happened, and they never show it. Show, don't tell. That is key to good writing, and good character development. When have we ever actually SEEN these NPCs develop as characters? Even Lillie, who appears more often than any other NPC in SM, never SHOWS how she's changed. Just tying your hair back doesn't equate to character development. And for Gladion? Just having one of your Pokemon evolve doesn't equate to character development. GF don't have a clue what good writing is, and it gets more and more obnoxious with each passing generation.

    And here is the thing - no, it's not really your journey anymore. You play as a character, but they're not important to the story; they have no personality whatsoever. Gone are the days when it was just you vs. whatever, and that's not necessarily a bad thing...but the ones who star alongside you have no personalities and no character development of their own. They show up at important times - or in the case of SM, all the bloody time - with nothing to show for it. You don't need to know anything about their backstory, but you DO need to know something about their lives, and their personalities, rather than just quick flashes of dialogue followed by battles or whatever. That's not storytelling. It's intrusive, it's lazy, sloppy, and bad writing. Again, show and don't tell. Telling us these characters have changed is not the same as showing us how and why they've changed; getting us involved in their story - which is clearly what the games focus on now; SM was almost entirely about Lillie and nobody else - and getting us to actually care about them.

    Really, the two approaches are difficult to compare, as the games have gone from a vaguely open-world make-your-own-story approach to an almost on-rails traditional RPG approach. They're severely lacking in the latter because of the writing. I realise that is subjective. But I think my points still stand and if you played any other RPG series and gave them characters like Pokemon has, it'd be hailed as an absolute disaster for the poor quality of the writing and the fact that nobody is memorable outside of their designs. They have a VERY long way to go before they can deliver a quality story-focused experience, and I don't think there is anything remotely praiseworthy about the characters as they are now. The games aren't enjoyable because the quality of the writing is mediocre at best, and that is what they're drawing all the attention to by shoving these NPCs in our faces rather than leaving us to our own devices. It's a valid approach to take to games. But until they improve the franchise will never be as good, to me at least, as it was in the days of Gen IV. Because they can make a good world with good gameplay, but they just cannot make good characters.
     

    Alexander18

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    Sorry but Gladions design and development in the games is superb. It is lillie who has a poor design and development. There should not be any denial of this. Gladion surpasses lillie in every possible. Lillie is consider the worst character of SM games. And no SM games was not about Lillie at all. It was about our character.
     

    clbgolden

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    Sorry but Gladions design and development in the games is superb. It is lillie who has a poor design and development. There should not be any denial of this. Gladion surpasses lillie in every possible. Lillie is consider the worst character of SM games. And no SM games was not about Lillie at all. It was about our character.
    ... Pretty much everything you said is purely opinionated.
     

    MegaKuriboh

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  • I can see both sides of the coin on this one, there really are two types of Pokemon games. There are the open world "Go take on all the gym leaders on your own and be the very best with the strength you and your Pokemon share!" to "Let's all go on an adventure and be friends!", and for the past three generations it's been the latter. I feel like this is a big reason why so many people have been turned off from the current Pokemon games, there's not too much freedom, you always have to go where your friends are and I can see why it's frustrating. There's so much dialouge, and it really feels like the game is babying you at times, especially at the beginning of the games (Glares at Melemele).

    I absolutely love Gen 5 and Gen 7, and I dislike Gen 6, why? Because of the characters, at this point it feels like the characters themselves carry the game for the most part. Gen 6 has a lot of cool stuff going for it, Mega Evolution, Super Training, Trainer Customziation, a beautiful region, a huge range of Pokemon to catch in the main story, however a lot of the game feels so bogged down because of that annoying friend group that follows you around EVERY.WHERE.YOU.GO. It's frustrating, but Gen 7 does the same thing with Lillie, Hau and Professor Kukui. So why do I love Gen 7 so much? Other than the difficulty going up from XY, I really love Sun and Moon's cast. They have personalities that I feel were pretty well fleshed out, not perfect (trust me I got upset at how rushed Hau and Gladion's development felt), and they feel like real, lovable people. The Gen 6 cast just felt like one personality quirk and now we're done with it. It even felt like they couldn't write a proper ending for the villan. Sun and Moon gave us closure to Guzma's character and mostly to Lusamine, although we have yet to find out if she will truly return to her good ways or not. It felt to me like they did give a shit about the characters this time, and Lillie was a prime example of that.

    What we're forgetting here is that Pokemon is still a game aimed for kids. Game Freak does seem to be slowly acknowledging that most of the audience is in fact Teens and young adults who grew up with it, but they just won't give up on that audience because hey money. Because of that, we won't be getting brilliant Persona level writing in these games at least for a long time, but we do have other outlets like the Pokemon Adventures manga that has a lot more freedom and gives personality to gym leaders and other side characters as well (Pretty much all the Kanto Gym Leaders play big roles in later parts too), and I'm looking forward to how it handles Gladion, Guzma and Lillie.

    Getting back to Gladion though, I feel like his character is really all it needs to be, the edgelord that brings his family together. I want him to show up more in USUM, maybe act more as a threat, and do more stuff with Team Skull, that was a cool plot element that was never really established. It is also curious to see how he'd be like as the president of the Aether Foundation, which is why I wished USUM would be sequels instead.
     

    Alexander18

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    Gladion could appear more but it is not must have thing. I am satisfied by how he appeared in SM. Not like lillie is appears far too often and became an annoyance. Gladion was one example of a fine character and it be neat to see him again.
     

    Z25

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    I really liked Gladion but some improvements could be made.

    It be cool to see him not being accepted by Aether or Skull in this. Instead he wonders around angsty, but we see a good side of him as the game progresses. We'd even see him capture one of his mons that evolve through friendship which would capture his character well imo.

    He could made into a mis understood but really good character through ways like this imo.
     

    Mawa

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  • I still can't get my head into having "old" character (previously used in a game) having a brand new role and no continuity, only rebuilt... I wonder what if... what if we ddn't moved, we always lived in Alola and he's our childhood friend/rival? Like we always known each other, so we know who his mother is, etc.
     
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