I really wish the games had one of these...

[Trainer Evan]

Hey guys! =]

I don;t know if you're anything like me, but this is a problem that's always bugged me with the games, despite them being like my favorite games. I get emotionally attached to my Monsters, which i think is one of the main draws of this game series. The relationship that is built between you and you're team. I know its all data and pixels, but from a roleplaying and imagination perspective, its incredible. I was severely disappointed in B/W when they took out Pokewalker functionality and the aspect of your favorite monster following you around. But that' not what I'm talking about here. When reading the manga, or imagining the world, as it is a very interesting and realistic universe to imagine, I figure that battles would be won by knowledge, skill, and a deep understanding between Trainer and Monster, Not on stats, because obviously, they wouldn't be there. Now, if you're anything like me, you love certain Pocket Monsters. My favorite Pocket Monster is Fraxure. And I want to fight with him online alongside the rest of my team, cause I love him so much as a Monster. Problem is, because I never evolve him to Haxorus, whom I do not like as much,(because it takes away what I love about Fraxure)he will never be a viable meta-game option because, simply, his stats won't be good enough. I can't even find strategies online for using him because everyone assumes you'd want a Haxorus. Well....I don't. It doesn't really make sense why they wouldn't get the same based stats as their next evolution when they hit the evolve level in my opinion. Perhaps cause physiology changes? I don't...that excuse could only apply to few monsters. So yea, my Fraxure is permanently crippled. I have a solution though, that I really wish were in the games.

I would call it the "Power Stone". It would be used like any other evolutionary stone in the game, but it could only be used on Under Evolved Monsters. The stone would bump the monster in question's stats up to the base stats of its next evolutionary form. After using the stone, to preserve balance, that Pokemon would never be able to evolve. But its stats would be as good as its next evolutionary form. This would also free up space so you don't always have to have your monster holding an Everstone during training. These stones would also be pretty rare. You could either buy them for a lot of money or find like, one or two of them per game.

What would you guys think of that?
=S

 

[Trance and Moss]

I wouldnt be totally surprised if something like that was added to the game - so its a reasonable concept.

However it can easily be argued by other people that in order for a pokemon to have certain abilities it simply must evolve. Perhaps it does not have the biological abilities in it's precursory stage of growth.
"You can't have your cake and eat it too."
"You can't have your kakuna and Beedril too."

 

[Trainer Evan]

I wouldnt be totally surprised if something like that was added to the game - so its a reasonable concept.

However it can easily be argued by other people that in order for a pokemon to have certain abilities it simply must evolve. Perhaps it does not have the biological abilities in it's precursory stage of growth.
"You can't have your cake and eat it too."
"You can't have your kakuna and Beedril too."

But I'm not talking about move-sets. Clearly a Kakuna cannot learn the moves that make Beedrill what Beedrill is. It doesn't have arms. I'm talking about the stats. There's no reason I can think of for a Kakuna to not have equal base stats to a Beedrill, it just simply can't really do anything with them.

In the ideal Pocket Monster universe, every pocket monster, evolved or not, should have potential to be used competitively. It should be all about the training, not superficial factors like stats. This should apply to every monster(Except Dunsparce and Magikarp, of course. =P).

 

[bwburke94]

How would the Light Ball work if you used the item on Pikachu? Would it double Pikachu's Atk and SpA or Raichu's? Or would it not work at all?

EDIT: Speaking of which... Eviolite.

 

[myrrhman]

But I'm not talking about move-sets. Clearly a Kakuna cannot learn the moves that make Beedrill what Beedrill is. It doesn't have arms. I'm talking about the stats. There's no reason I can think of for a Kakuna to not have equal base stats to a Beedrill, it just simply can't really do anything with them.

In the ideal Pocket Monster universe, every pocket monster, evolved or not, should have potential to be used competitively. It should be all about the training, not superficial factors like stats. This should apply to every monster(Except Dunsparce and Magikarp, of course. =P).

I really like your idea. Right now, my favorite Pokemon are all fully evolved. In order, it goes Starmie, Nidoking, Milotic, Staraptor, Torterra, Lapras, etc. However, I know that if there was an item like this, I would like a lot more unevolved Pokemon the same, if not more, than their evolutions. As always, there would have to be certain kinks to work out, for instance, imo it doesn't make sense for Magikarp to have Gyarados stats, because they're not the same at all, but for almost every other Pokemon, I see no reason not to have your idea into effect.

How would the Light Ball work if you used the item on Pikachu? Would it double Pikachu's Atk and SpA or Raichu's? Or would it not work at all?

EDIT: Speaking of which... Eviolite.

I feel like Eviolite was Game Freak's initial attempt at something similar to Evan's idea. Not the idea of making unevolved Pokemon able to be used on competitive teams, but the idea of boosting their strength and to try to make them somewhat on par with evolved Pokemon.

Something somewhat similar that I would like to see is a change in how attacks work. I think that as Pokemon use a move more and more, they should get better at using it. For instance, in the Anime, Ash has a Swellow that takes an entire episode to learn how to use Aerial Ace. At the beginning of the episode, it couldn't pull it off, but it could by the end. (I think this is right, might be a different Pokemon). I think that moves should also have a leveling system, and every 20 times or so that you use a move, the move gains a level, which boosts the power, accuracy, or like PP of it. Of course, there would be a cap (like lv. 20 or so), but it would make people think harder about deleting a move for a slightly stronger one if they've leveled up their first move some.

Maybe even have like varying cap levels, with the stronger ones having lower caps, so the weaker moves have more room to grow.

 

[Trainer Evan]

Something somewhat similar that I would like to see is a change in how attacks work. I think that as Pokemon use a move more and more, they should get better at using it. For instance, in the Anime, Ash has a Swellow that takes an entire episode to learn how to use Aerial Ace. At the beginning of the episode, it couldn't pull it off, but it could by the end. (I think this is right, might be a different Pokemon). I think that moves should also have a leveling system, and every 20 times or so that you use a move, the move gains a level, which boosts the power, accuracy, or like PP of it. Of course, there would be a cap (like lv. 20 or so), but it would make people think harder about deleting a move for a slightly stronger one if they've leveled up their first move some.

Maybe even have like varying cap levels, with the stronger ones having lower caps, so the weaker moves have more room to grow.

See I always rationalized this in game as because you're stats get better as you train your attacks get more powerful, seeing as they most certainly do. What would make more sense, imo, is if you use a move enough you get more PP in that move upon leveling up so you can pull it off easier. But that might become in blanced when ir comes ro One-hit KO moves...But they're banned from competitive play anyway.

 

[XEL]

You could always play in lower tiers haha. Or be like me, say "**** it," and just use Pokemon you like :) The only OU Pokemon I carry are Dragonite and Scizor haha

 

[Trainer Evan]

I think actually, all the monsters in my sig, which is my team, are in UU tier. Except maybe Mamoswine. I'm not sure about him.

 

[Mothman~]

I wouldnt be totally surprised if something like that was added to the game - so its a reasonable concept.

However it can easily be argued by other people that in order for a pokemon to have certain abilities it simply must evolve. Perhaps it does not have the biological abilities in it's precursory stage of growth.
"You can't have your cake and eat it too."
"You can't have your kakuna and Beedril too."

I'm using that quote next time I have the opportunity just so I can get a reaction. :laugh:

But yeah, evolution is a necessary process if you want your Pokemon to acquire certain abilities. Because that's usually the only way to get them.

 

[Trainer Evan]

I'm using that quote next time I have the opportunity just so I can get a reaction. :laugh:

But yeah, evolution is a necessary process if you want your Pokemon to acquire certain abilities. Because that's usually the only way to get them.

But Abilities =/= stats.
=S

 

[Oryx]

But the thing is...evolving does significantly change a Pokemon. Taking Fraxure and Haxorus as an example...how could Fraxure possibly be as strong as Haxorus (same attack) with less muscles, less blades, shorter, smaller, etc? It doesn't make sense for a Fraxure to have the same stats as a Haxorus; they're just different Pokemon.

 

[Trainer Evan]

But the thing is...evolving does significantly change a Pokemon. Taking Fraxure and Haxorus as an example...how could Fraxure possibly be as strong as Haxorus (same attack) with less muscles, less blades, shorter, smaller, etc? It doesn't make sense for a Fraxure to have the same stats as a Haxorus; they're just different Pokemon.

I think you're stretching it a bit there...These are Pocket Monsters, not real life animals. This is a universe where a monkey about you're size can decimate a 60 foot long rock snake. That doesn't make a lot of sense, but Pokemon are powerful no matter what size. They remark on this in the early parts of B&W, if I recall. There's lots of things that make far less sense than that in the pokemon universe. According to the in-game dex, Larvitar weighs 158 pounds. That would only be possible were his atomic stucture made up of Dark Matter. Even crazier according to the dex for his mother, they can punch down mountains and maps have to be redrawn after they rampage. This is a universe where where our laws of reality and biology don't apply 100%. Even in the anime, which displays things more realisticly most of the time, isn't Ash's pikachu the most powerful Monster on his team? Of all the things the Pokemon franchise asks us to accept, this proposal makes far more sense than a lot of them, and would make the game a lot more enjoyable for people who aren't able to use their favorite Monster competitively.

And again, I'm not saying they should have the same abilities, just the same stats. The monster would still be limited by the movepool it has access to.

 

[Oryx]

I think you're stretching it a bit there...These are Pocket Monsters, not real life animals. This is a universe where a monkey about you're size can decimate a 60 foot long rock snake. That doesn't make a lot of sense, but Pokemon are powerful no matter what size. They remark on this in the early parts of B&W, if I recall. There's lots of things that make far less sense than that in the pokemon universe. According to the in-game dex, Larvitar weighs 158 pounds. That would only be possible were his atomic stucture made up of Dark Matter. Even crazier according to the dex for his mother, they can punch down mountains and maps have to be redrawn after they rampage. This is a universe where where our laws of reality and biology don't apply 100%. Even in the anime, which displays things more realisticly most of the time, isn't Ash's pikachu the most powerful Monster on his team? Of all the things the Pokemon franchise asks us to accept, this proposal makes far more sense than a lot of them, and would make the game a lot more enjoyable for people who aren't able to use their favorite Monster competitively.

And again, I'm not saying they should have the same abilities, just the same stats. The monster would still be limited by the movepool it has access to.

The anime has its own canon outside of the games. Also, I'm not sure how saying it's unrealistic for this:

...to have the same stats as this:

...is stretching anything. It seems it would be the opposite, that pushing the series even farther out of realism would be stretching "it", whatever it is.

Even if there are things that make less sense, I would rather it not be there because I always push for as much realism as possible. It sounds strange in a fantasy world, but there are differences between things that are "magical" and things that just make no logical sense for no reason. Like Charizard breathing fire? I can suspend my disbelief on that, because it's magical and meant that way. But a tiny Pokemon with the same stats as its evolution? It's far enough out of the realm of logic without moving into the realm of reasonable fantasy. And then it raises the question...where would it stop? Would you be able to do this with a Dratini to the power of a Dragonite? Because otherwise it wouldn't be fair to people who want to use Dratini competitively.

Some Pokemon just aren't meant to be competitive.

 

[Trainer Evan]

The anime has its own canon outside of the games. Also, I'm not sure how saying it's unrealistic for this:

...to have the same stats as this:

...is stretching anything. It seems it would be the opposite, that pushing the series even farther out of realism would be stretching "it", whatever it is.

Even if there are things that make less sense, I would rather it not be there because I always push for as much realism as possible. It sounds strange in a fantasy world, but there are differences between things that are "magical" and things that just make no logical sense for no reason. Like Charizard breathing fire? I can suspend my disbelief on that, because it's magical and meant that way. But a tiny Pokemon with the same stats as its evolution? It's far enough out of the realm of logic without moving into the realm of reasonable fantasy. And then it raises the question...where would it stop? Would you be able to do this with a Dratini to the power of a Dragonite? Because otherwise it wouldn't be fair to people who want to use Dratini competitively.

Some Pokemon just aren't meant to be competitive.

Which goes against one of the core ideals of Pokemon, imo.

You're saying that you can suspend you're belief to a point, which is acceptable, but you're suspending it with the excuse we call in critic circles "A Wizard Did it." Surely a stone that makes your monster as strong as a fully evolved one can be assumed to have magical properties? You may consider the anime different, but in that show you see tiny Monsters with immense power all the time. You also don't see Monsters punching down mountains or causing Typhoons, but apparently in the game, some do. Its a silly situation of deciding what crosses the line and what doesn't, and sometimes what does cross the line makes it into the game. I see no reason why a Dratini trained as hard as a Dragonite shouldn't be as strong. They evolve to reflect their strength, but surely they don't need to actually evolve to have it? I mean clearly, a Charmeleon can't learn fly because it has no wings, but surely it can belt fire as powerful as a Charizard if trained all the way to the max level. The whole point of this is to allow people to compete with their favorite Pocket Monsters in the Meta Game, I can't really see why you would find fault with it...shoot, allowing more diverse teams would decrease the amount of repetitive Monsters you run into online. Then you have Monsters that barely change when they evolve. Like Cubone and Marowak, or Goldeen and Seaking. I don't see why one of them could do something but their under-evolved counterparts couldn't...
You also have to factor in that the proposed item would be relatively rare and hard to get, so you'd have to think before using it on a Monster. Which leads me to believe if you were to use such a stone, it would be for people in the exact same situation I am, which I am sure there are plenty of.

Maybe you just never loved a Monster's first or second stage as much as its final? Idk man....But it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to implement. =/

(Oh, and the Chansey comparison...you couldn't think of two Monsters to illustrate that point better? They look fairly similar...why not Magikarp and Gyarados? XD)

 

[sherreamethyst]

Hmm, that would be cool, but then I think the whole game might go out of whack. I do have some pokes that I prefer in their pre-evo state rather than their last evo state but not even in the anime or the manga are the pre-evo pokes have been or ever will be stronger or just as strong as its last evo. There are some exceptions though, but the pokemon really struggle and I think they only put those in to make us feel like we can do anything.

Anyways, your power stone idea is a nice one. I have thought about it myself before too. I do wish we didn't have to care about lvls and stats, just like how in the show trainers just put all their trust and effort into a Pokemon, and it somehow wins. Winning because of bondage and trust is a interesting way to fight. But then we wouldn't have to get stronger to fight anymore. It'll just be served to us on a silver platter, if you know what I mean...

 

[Oryx]

Which goes against one of the core ideals of Pokemon, imo.

You're saying that you can suspend you're belief to a point, which is acceptable, but you're suspending it with the excuse we call in critic circles "A Wizard Did it." Surely a stone that makes your monster as strong as a fully evolved one can be assumed to have magical properties? You may consider the anime different, but in that show you see tiny Monsters with immense power all the time. You also don't see Monsters punching down mountains or causing Typhoons, but apparently in the game, some do. Its a silly situation of deciding what crosses the line and what doesn't, and sometimes what does cross the line makes it into the game. I see no reason why a Dratini trained as hard as a Dragonite shouldn't be as strong. They evolve to reflect their strength, but surely they don't need to actually evolve to have it? I mean clearly, a Charmeleon can't learn fly because it has no wings, but surely it can belt fire as powerful as a Charizard if trained all the way to the max level. The whole point of this is to allow people to compete with their favorite Pocket Monsters in the Meta Game, I can't really see why you would find fault with it...shoot, allowing more diverse teams would decrease the amount of repetitive Monsters you run into online. Then you have Monsters that barely change when they evolve. Like Cubone and Marowak, or Goldeen and Seaking. I don't see why one of them could do something but their under-evolved counterparts couldn't...
You also have to factor in that the proposed item would be relatively rare and hard to get, so you'd have to think before using it on a Monster. Which leads me to believe if you were to use such a stone, it would be for people in the exact same situation I am, which I am sure there are plenty of.

Maybe you just never loved a Monster's first or second stage as much as its final? Idk man....But it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to implement. =/

(Oh, and the Chansey comparison...you couldn't think of two Monsters to illustrate that point better? They look fairly similar...why not Magikarp and Gyarados? XD)

Because if I picked those two you would just repeat the point you already made earlier about how it wouldn't count for those two?

I just don't like it because I can't see it making sense, that's all. You may think it goes against the ideals of Pokemon to not be able to use every Pokemon competitively, but that's been a part of Pokemon since Gen I, so I feel like that's more a part of Pokemon than your image of what you think Pokemon should be, lol. The bottom line for me is just that I'm not going to like how little sense it makes in many cases. You saying "other things don't make sense" doesn't make me want to add more things that don't make sense. I don't like the parts that don't make sense and I would rather not see more added. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Edit:

They evolve to reflect their strength, but surely they don't need to actually evolve to have it?

Surely they do since that's how it's been for the 15 years Pokemon has been around. Even when Pikachu fought Raichu in the original anime for example, Pikachu didn't win because it was just as strong as Raichu even though it wasn't evolved, they said specifically that he won because he was faster and had Agility even though he wasn't strong enough without evolving.

 

[Trainer Evan]

Anyways, your power stone idea is a nice one. I have thought about it myself before too. I do wish we didn't have to care about lvls and stats, just like how in the show trainers just put all their trust and effort into a Pokemon, and it somehow wins. Winning because of bondage and trust is a interesting way to fight. But then we wouldn't have to get stronger to fight anymore. It'll just be served to us on a silver platter, if you know what I mean...[/COLOR][/FONT]

Well, its a game, it would be hard to win based off "bondage and trust". I may love my monsters, but they are still just pixels and numbers. Hard to get that attached to. lol. But the games beat that theme over our heads over and over again, "Bondage and trust and learning things from one another". Shouldn't the battles try and reflect that more? How about relying on clever moves based off the opponent and scenario rather than purely stats? In gen 1, you could pretty much fight any Monster with any Monster if I recall. I remember destroying the Cerulean Gym with only a Charmeleon. That started disappearing as the Tiers began to form. As long as there's type advantages and disadvantages, I feel that fights could still be difficult. And we're not talking about making the game easier at any length, or changing the battle system. We're talking about making a Blastoise that happens to look like a Warturtle. I don't think that would whack the game up....

 

[Elite Overlord LeSabre™]

I'm not cool with this idea. It just seems unnatural for a tiny Pokemon to be able to attack with the sheer power of a much larger, more evolved form. At least with that defense stone thingy in 5th gen it was a held item, so it would put a handicap on a Pokemon by restricting its use of other held items. But this... there's no restriction on using held items if you use it, so there's no drawbacks at all.

Which basically boils down to making evolution completely unnecessary and superfluous except for personal preference as far as appearance. Which does take away a part of what makes Pokemon, well, Pokemon.

 

[XEL]

I actually like the concept. The only thing I would tweak is make this "Power Stone" a held item as opposed to a "use once" item. In any case, if you look at all the stats, average is around 80-90 for everything, with only speed having an average of 78. In this regard, many of the pre-evo's are good enough for battle, even without the help of a stone. A Darumaka, with hustle, is fully capable of denting a fully evolved Pokemon. Will it last as long in a battle? Probably not. But neither would Darmanitan anyways :P

There's really nothing stopping you from using your favorite Pokemon in battle. Back in '07 I was religious about battling. I had a team full of OU Pokemon, some that I just pure hated. Was it fun winning? Yes. Was I having fun using these random Pokemon? No. I guess that's why I keep losing and regaining interest in Pokemon. Nowadays, I'm just creating teams with Pokemon that I actually like. Is losing fun? Not exactly, but I've built a team that can hold its own and put up a damn good fight. Is the battling fun? Hell. yes.