Illegal immigration and Disease

[Oryx]

No, I especially help my family. I agree that my family should get priority over strangers because those are people that have supported me my whole life. I help strangers the same amount whether or not they're American. Or at least I try to - no one's perfect and I have to get over biases just like everyone else.

The influx of immigrants right now is due to suffering. The three countries that these immigrants are mainly coming from are Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador.

Guatemala: 75% of Guatemalans are below the poverty line. In the past 50 years, it's spent more time at war than at peace - and that war was with itself. It has one of the highest violent crime rates in Central America. You can go through that article and read about the ridiculously blatant crime in Guatemala, from literal barricades in roads to a car accident turning into a shootout.

Honduras: Honduras is the country with the world's highest murder rate. It is the second poorest country in Central America. Nearly 65% of the population lives in poverty. It's also a hub of sex trafficking, and "most trafficking offenders are prosecuted under non-trafficking statutes that prescribe lower penalties; government efforts to identify, refer, and assist trafficking victims are inadequate".

El Salvador: Crime and violence in El Salvador are critically high. Gang activity is common. 40% of the citizens live in poverty. 90% of their surface water is undrinkable, and 20% of the population has no access to clean drinking water.

So it could be that these people are living under the specter of violence the likes of which none of us have ever experienced, the very real threat of trafficking, and crushing poverty so complete that they don't have water to drink; or they can be just trying to take advantage of America because...fun, I guess. What do you think the end goal of these people is? Do you think they travel thousands of miles through impoverished nations with little to no food and money just to get to America because it seems like a cool place? Just from the basic common sense you have, you must see how obvious it is that people aren't going to make that difficult journey across dangerous countries and risk being sent right back if they didn't have a reason that was good enough to risk all that. What do you think they're thinking when they travel all that way, a lot of the time lately young children all alone, to get to America?

 

[Tek]

You can't reconcile "I don't think these people deserve to suffer" and "I think we should deport them back to the suffering they're trying to escape by coming here." Those two are direct contradictions. That is an active choice to put them back in suffering, instead of extending a helping hand to a fellow human being. If you don't think they deserve to suffer, why do you think they should be sent to where they were already suffering when they tried to escape to a better life?

Wanting to help the people within your country is not twisted. Wanting to help the people within your country have a marginally less annoying life at the expense of massive suffering on the part of people outside your country is.

Whether or not the effect of the influx of migrants is "marginally less annoying" depends on how close to the border you are, for one thing. In addition, food, water, and money are finite, meaning that the presence of these people has an impact not immediately noticeable - or easily trackable.

I do agree that a person cannot simultaneously look after the well being of these migrants and also support deporting them. But the situation is that not everyone places the needs of these migrants at the same level as the needs of the American populace.

It occurs to me, though, that providing humanitarian aid need not require granting citizenship, but instead a temporary refuge. Hence my usage of the word 'migrant' and not 'immigrant'.

 

[Kanzler]

Illegal migrants present a problem from a public health perspective, although I'm just surmising that because of migration + poor socio-economic background = introduction of foreign diseases. I'd say that the United States has a greater responsibility to its own citizens than non-citizens, I mean, that's what you get for what you pay (being a citizen and all). I would also say that the United States has no responsibility to those who are not its citizens, outside of the purview of serious human rights issues. Just because they made much effort to come to these borders does not mean they've earned a ticket in.

 

[Oryx]

Whether or not the effect of the influx of migrants is "marginally less annoying" depends on how close to the border you are, for one thing. In addition, food, water, and money are finite, meaning that the presence of these people has an impact not immediately noticeable - or easily trackable.

I do agree that a person cannot simultaneously look after the well being of these migrants and also support deporting them. But the situation is that not everyone places the needs of these migrants at the same level as the needs of the American populace.

It occurs to me, though, that providing humanitarian aid need not require granting citizenship, but instead a temporary refuge. Hence my usage of the word 'migrant' and not 'immigrant'.

I would be completely for help from the US that didn't necessarily involve citizenship, or help from the US that helped spread them out across the country so the few areas where water is an issue aren't being overrun with more people than they can handle. In the vast majority of the US, worrying about not having enough food is not an issue, at least not worrying about there being enough food in the area for the populace.

 

[Tek]

I would also say that the United States has no responsibility to those who are not its citizens, outside of the purview of serious human rights issues. Just because they made much effort to come to these borders does not mean they've earned a ticket in.

The second sentence here I agree with. But personally... I feel that since we, as a country, have the ability to both recognize these people's suffering, and to do something about it, we have the responsibility to help.

For now, I do my part by paying taxes, and educating myself about what's going on. I hope that if I have the opportunity to do more, I'll have the courage and will to act.

 

[T The Manager]

I as well don't believe in illegal immigration and those that attempt to come here illegally should be shipped back to Mexico, pregnant or not. The only reason a pregnant woman tries to come to America illegally is so she can become a US citizen along with her child. The problem I see here is, who's paying for the hospital bills? Oh wait, the tax payers! Last time I checked it costs money to give birth at a hospital and I think it's asinine that they expect me and fellow American citizens to pay taxes to fund for someone that's an illegal immigrant. I'm sick and tired of the illegal immigrants leeching off of America's system, and the liberals are what allow it.
*take note, liberals not democrats*

Another problem with illegal immigration is they have "everything given to them" including jobs making it harder for a citizen that was born and raised in this country that's not illegal. Why should they get payed under the table for a smaller pay? So what if they don't have any money, It's not my problem. I shouldn't have to be competing for jobs against an illegal immigrant. That illegal immigrant shouldn't be here in the first place.

I don't have a problem with legal immigrants. The problem with America is the country is so jacked up that they don't care about illegal immigration not to mention their own country's people. This country would rather allow illegal immigration rather than fix issues involving it's own citizens. But as long as politicians and those who have power get a paycheck they don't care. They don't care about America as a country or it's people. They don't care about the illegal immigrants. All they care about is making their pockets swoll and that's a major issue.

If an immigrant wants to live here they should go through the process legally instead of pissing off America.

And just so you guys know I'm not on either side of the political party because their both part of the same bird.

 

[Rogue planet]

snip

They cannot become legal until the child vouches for them at age 21, quite a long wait. I wonder how many people are actually planning that far ahead, or if that's actually not the reason at all.

American hospitals are also not free? Correct me if I'm wrong, I know when people go to the US to give birth legally it costs several thousand dollars, what hospitals are giving birth to illegal migrants without insurance for free?

You say they have everything given to them, I don't understand. Who is handing out jobs to migrants? Are you talking about the business owners that deliberately seek out migrant workers so they can be exploited, paid below minimum wage and work in a place outside the sight of the law where safety measures and employee rights are virtually non-existant. I'm sure if you really wanted to work in such a place nobody would have a problem with you joining the queue. Have you ever applied for a job and not had to give some sort of national insurance number? I expect every job you have has required one, so if you were an illegal migrant you wouldn't be able to get it. The only sort of jobs open to these people are the ones I described at first.

Where you say America does not care. This I agree with. We need to point the finger and focus the blame on our governments, the people with power, not the people that have no power. They are just struggling to reach a better life, because the people with power are not assisting them in any way. We have been conditioned by the media and our politicians to point the finger at those who are vulnerable and powerless, in order to shift the blame from the people who are actually in control. These problems would not exist if it wasn't for the greed of politicians and corporations. These problems could be solved by either accommodating migrants and relaxing immigration laws or by giving aid, both of which would be plausible if wealth was more evenly distributed. But as a lot of you argue, America needs help first. Yes there are a lot of issues that need solving, but they all have the same root cause.

Finally, unfortunately they can't go through the legal process. You need at least a university degree in a subject that is currently in demand, and even if you have that it's no easy process to legally migrate. So their options are either stay where they are in poverty or take all the risks of illegal immigration on the off chance they might be able to have a better life. I know what I would do if I was in that situation.

 

[Oryx]

American hospitals are also not free? Correct me if I'm wrong, I know when people go to the US to give birth legally it costs several thousand dollars, what hospitals are giving birth to illegal migrants without insurance for free?

This actually was the one part of his post that was true-ish - emergency rooms are required to treat you regardless of ability to pay, and if you can't pay then...you just have a bill following you around. When you're not even technically a citizen, whether your credit score is dropped by bills is probably the least of your worries. Normal doctors can determine your ability to pay and then treat you or refuse to treat you, but in the emergency room that's not the case.

 

[Silais]

I would be completely for help from the US that didn't necessarily involve citizenship, or help from the US that helped spread them out across the country so the few areas where water is an issue aren't being overrun with more people than they can handle. In the vast majority of the US, worrying about not having enough food is not an issue, at least not worrying about there being enough food in the area for the populace.

47 million Americans are on food stamps. It may not be a matter of how MUCH food America has, but a matter of how difficult it is to get it. I think the problem you are having with this discussion is that you are assuming all of these immigrants have it worse than many American citizens do. While that may be true in a lot of cases, there are millions of American citizens who are born into such horrid poverty that they cannot survive on their own. People in our own country experience violence too. In fact, the United States has the highest murder rate compared to virtually all over developed countries.

 

[Oryx]

47 million Americans are on food stamps. It may not be a matter of how MUCH food America has, but a matter of how difficult it is to get it. I think the problem you are having with this discussion is that you are assuming all of these immigrants have it worse than many American citizens do. While that may be true in a lot of cases, there are millions of American citizens who are born into such horrid poverty that they cannot survive on their own. People in our own country experience violence too. In fact, the United States has the highest murder rate compared to virtually all over developed countries.

I'm not having any problem with this discussion. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean that I have a problem.

When we have an influx of people from developed countries coming to the US, I'll compare murder rates and find it relevant. Meanwhile, we're talking about countries that are all in the top five murder rates in the entire world. There's no reason to compare to other developed countries; we are the closest developed country to them so they end up here. Our poverty rate is still under half that of the richest country they're fleeing from, and the least murderous of the three has a murder rate 10 times ours. Poverty exists here, and murder happens here, but not at a comparable rate to the countries they are fleeing.

If you plan on continuing on the path of "Americans are worse off than these immigrants" you're going to have to bring out some statistics that back you up on that.

 

[T The Manager]

They cannot become legal until the child vouches for them at age 21, quite a long wait. I wonder how many people are actually planning that far ahead, or if that's actually not the reason at all.

This may be true but I highly doubt that's the case in highly immigrated states like Illinois or even a city like Chicago. Chicago doesn't follow the states laws, they do what they want when they want. I live in Illinois and whites are turning into the minority due to the illegal immigration. I don't know who's sending them here but there's tons of illegals in Chicago, especially from Mexico and a majority of them are involved in criminal activities like the Cartels that do illegal drug trades through Mexico. The Latin Kings is also a highly immigrant gang as well.

American hospitals are also not free? Correct me if I'm wrong, I know when people go to the US to give birth legally it costs several thousand dollars, what hospitals are giving birth to illegal migrants without insurance for free?

No medicaid pays for the illegals bills not the illegals and how's medicaid funded? Oh, the taxpayers! But how does the immigrants get medical care may you ask? OBAMACARE. Obamacare covers illegals medical care giving them medicaid, which is why you see immigrants getting free doctor/hospital visits.

You say they have everything given to them, I don't understand. Who is handing out jobs to migrants? Are you talking about the business owners that deliberately seek out migrant workers so they can be exploited, paid below minimum wage and work in a place outside the sight of the law where safety measures and employee rights are virtually non-existant. I'm sure if you really wanted to work in such a place nobody would have a problem with you joining the queue. Have you ever applied for a job and not had to give some sort of national insurance number? I expect every job you have has required one, so if you were an illegal migrant you wouldn't be able to get it. The only sort of jobs open to these people are the ones I described at first.

Explain to me how an ILLEGAL immigrant get's a drivers license, food stamps, section 8 housing, welfare, medical care, etc? If you say they don't then you're probably on the same party that allows it and just don't wanna admit the truth or you see no problem with it. This is ALL paid by the taxpayers, social security, and the disabled. The funds are then passed to the Congress to the illegal immigrants. America is very corrupt.

As for illegals not taking jobs; is this a joke or are you that un-knowledgeable when it comes to illegal immigration? Maybe not in your state but in states like California and Illinois damn near every illegal immigrant has a job. Highly liberal area = jobs to the illegals. You wouldn't see conservative state like Texas doing this would you? Now their not getting employed by huge franchises either it's usually smaller restaurants and construction type jobs; roofing, cement, siding, etc. This is on the employer tho and he/she is taking a risk by employing them but they feel the risk is worth the reward since their paying them at a lower wage under the table keeping them and employee off the radar.

Finally, unfortunately they can't go through the legal process. You need at least a university degree in a subject that is currently in demand, and even if you have that it's no easy process to legally migrate. So their options are either stay where they are in poverty or take all the risks of illegal immigration on the off chance they might be able to have a better life. I know what I would do if I was in that situation.

This isn't my problem, you're acting like I don't know what's going on when in reality I do I just don't care. We got enough illegals as is, we don't need anymore. What happens if you try to go to any other country illegally, say China, Russia, or Africa? They imprison you and some will torture you, if not kill you! I don't believe in the torturing and killing but tell me why America is the only country that allows illegal immigration the way it does? I don't care if it's the land of the free, the ultimate opportunity, and the pursuit of happiness. That still doesn't mean we should allow thousands upon thousand of illegals cross the border a year. It needs to be stopped.

Now before you say our government doesn't give them ♥♥♥♥, realize that the government does a lot of stuff that you're not aware of. They have power therefore they can do what they please even if it's against the Constitution or the law. That's a problem with our government. They do it right under our nose and a lot don't see it, but I do as well as 10% of America. I'm very well at picking up corrupted politics like this and it's another reason why I don't vote period.

 

[Oryx]

you're acting like I don't know what's going on when in reality I do I just don't care.

American ideals at their best.

 

[T The Manager]

American ideals at their best.

Lol, liberal ideals at their finest.

Give me one good reason why I should care about an illegal immigrant wanting to have a better life if all their gonna do is leech off the system? I'm sorry but not everyone on this forum has the same democratic beliefs as you. The only people I seen or heard of wanting to help illegal immigrants or don't mind that their coming over here is liberals. But as I said, I'm on neither party, their both part of the same bird.

 

[Tek]

Lol, liberal ideals at their finest.

Give me one good reason why I should care about an illegal immigrant wanting to have a better life if all their gonna do is leech off the system?

A man from Mexico immigrates illegally to Chicago. No asks him about his troubles or bothers to help. All he gets are dirty looks. He therefore decides: I'm gonna get mine and screw the rest of you.

A second man immigrates illegally to Chicago. He encounters people that treat him like a decent human being. He develops friendships and experiences a supportive community. He is therefore motivated to give back, and become a part of his community.

Neither of these are set in stone. The first man might be motivated to show everyone else up, to be a better American than the people who were born here. The second man might be lazy and take advantage of helpful people. But it is not hard to see that people need a little bit of support to be at their best. Especially when you take a moment to imagine that you are the man leaving a violent, messed-up homeland in the hopes of a better life.

We can point fingers all day, as you've suggested, and blame various groups for the human situation. We do, of course, need to examine facts and uphold accountability. But I prefer to spend my time doing what I can to leave this place in better shape than I found it, rather than spend my time telling others how they fall short.

Well, when I'm not playing Pokemon or watching anime, anyways. That time is dedicated to me.

 

[T The Manager]

A man from Mexico immigrates illegally to Chicago. No asks him about his troubles or bothers to help. All he gets are dirty looks. He therefore decides: I'm gonna get mine and screw the rest of you.

A second man immigrates illegally to Chicago. He encounters people that treat him like a decent human being. He develops friendships and experiences a supportive community. He is therefore motivated to give back, and become a part of his community.

Neither of these are set in stone. The first man might be motivated to show everyone else up, to be a better American than the people who were born here. The second man might be lazy and take advantage of helpful people. But it is not hard to see that people need a little bit of support to be at their best. Especially when you take a moment to imagine that you are the man leaving a violent, messed-up homeland in the hopes of a better life.

We can point fingers all day, as you've suggested, and blame various groups for the human situation. We do, of course, need to examine facts and uphold accountability. But I prefer to spend my time doing what I can to leave this place in better shape than I found it, rather than spend my time telling others how they fall short.

Well, when I'm not playing Pokemon or watching anime, anyways. That time is dedicated to me.

I get what you're saying but they still shouldn't be coming over here illegally, hence the word "illegal". Last time I checked illegal means breaking the law which results in either a huge ticket, jail, or prison time depending on the severity of the crime. Why should illegal immigration be any different? Just send them back. If they come over here illegally their destined to leech off the system even if it's not their plan, it's just what ends up happening. Instead I'd rather them get a visa and live here legally. I have no problem with immigrants but the illegal ones need to make their way back to where they came from and come back when they have a visa, while the legal ones can stay.

 

[Tek]

I get what you're saying but they still shouldn't be coming over here illegally, hence the word "illegal". Last time I checked illegal means breaking the law which results in either a huge ticket, jail, or prison time depending on the severity of the crime. Why should illegal immigration be any different? Just send them back.

I agree that immigrants ought to obey the laws, and be held accountable when they don't. Same as everyone else. In general, you need to follow through when rules are broken (I say 'in general' because rules are not always perfect, but I don't want to get off track). However, just sending these people back doesn't fix anything, in the same way that throwing a law-breaker in jail often doesn't stem the crime. Not that there shouldn't be some accountability, but the root problem isn't being addressed.

In other words, it seems to me that deporting a migrant - and taking no other action - is a lot like releasing a prisoner back into the same shoddy hood he came from, and expecting his behavior to somehow change. At least in jail you get three hots and a cot.

If they come over here illegally their destined to leech off the system even if it's not their plan, it's just what ends up happening.

I'm certain that some of the guys I've built houses with were here illegally. Yet they contributed in a lot of the same ways I did: purchase a vehicle, clothes, and food (consume), put up walls and floors (work), engage in conversation with the people around (relate). Their income wasn't taxed, like it should have been, that's the only leeching that I saw. Again, they shouldn't get a pass, but they helped out as much as they leeched. 'Bout like anyone, really.


Not sure how to tie all this together. I guess my main point is that deportation alone doesn't seem like a viable long-term strategy. Combined with an impassable wall at the southern border it could work, but I would not like to live in a country that acted like that. I guess if we had to, but... I think we can take care of our needs and help Central America a bit, if we can just figure out how.

Y'know, it occurs to me that if migrants came here and actively wanted to enter the legal system, we could fix the illegal immigration and the unchecked spread of disease in a single stroke.