Lati@s Suspect Test Discussion

[Sebastien Loeb]

Have I played very today, and me trail immediately the desire to play on Shoddy Battle, and have I immediately returned to use NB, because? The metagame has become really very bad, it is inconceivable that a Pokémon as Latias both OU, the Toxic of the various Blissey, Cresselia and others that I am not here to quote, clears come as if nothing pits from moves as Substitute/Safeguard/Rest+Chesto Berry, the proper Special Wall cannot take for ever hits in switch because of Stealth Rock and Spikes, without counting whether to demolish a Blissey Latias can be accompanied by a Dugtrio, let's show up us if Blissey doesn't have Ice Beam, you don't come to speak to me of Tyranitar and Heracross, since nobody would leave Latias in front of that Pokémon them, therefore in theory it serves the I help some following moves: Pursuit.

 

[ABYAY]

Now that I can post this because last night the site stopped working...

Latias is going to cause an increase in Blissey and the use of Steels like Metagross, Bronzong, and even Registeel. HP Fire hurts them, but...

-Metagross can be defensive and set up Stealth Rock (Think Draco Meteor), hit hard with Meteor Mash, or hit with Pursuit.
-Bronzong can Toxic/Gyro Ball Latias, or in some rare cases now, hit with Hypnosis.
-Registeel has Thunder Wave/Toxic, and can at least hit with Ice Punch. Also, some sets can set up Curses on Latias.

Although not a "counter", Weavile outpaces and smacks with STAB moves. Mamoswine can come in on the revenge, a Specs Thunderbolt, or Calm Mind and hit hard with CB Ice Shard. I'm probably underestimating the bulkiness of Latias though.

Really, either use S.Toss Blissey or be a good predictor in its attacks. Defensive Snorlax is enough to deal damage to it, considering what move it uses.

 

[The Hero Without a Name]

I know the Choice Band set looks really bad but it actually works pretty well. Please take a look at the damage calculations. Don't randomly say "You're a noob! Latias can't use physical attacks!" because Togekiss can and it has base 50 Atk. :P

And I suppose nobody ever told you that CBKiss is just like Chain Chomp; you get your surprise value, but after that, it fails HARD.

 

[Anti]

Outrage will always OHKO the standard 252HP/176 SpD Blissey

252 HP/176 SDef Blissey isn't standard Blissey though. The "standard" set would probably be either 252 Def / 80 SAtk / 176 SDef or 252 Def / 40 SAtk / 216 SDef.

Either way, 651 HP/119 Def Blissey takes from Outrage:

426 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 460 - 543 (70.66% - 83.41%)

Novelty at best. There are WAY better lures (which is all that will be doing), and the fact that it doesn't ensure the kill on Blissey with a STAB CB 120 base power attack is pretty sad.

Shiroi Togekiss is right (although Chain Chomp wasn't too bad...just horribly outclassed by everything else Garchomp carried).

Either way, I'm definitely editing the Counters section to include revenge killers and checks (and I'll throw in Def. CBTar too since it gets the job done though I won't be hyping it by any means). I'll also add in stuff for Latios since it's pretty much the same thing but +power -defenses, obviously.

EDIT: The effect the Lati@s will have on the metagame is probably going to be a better discussion than what counters it since that's becoming well-known very quickly.

 

[.]

Heracross doesn't count as a counter. It usually gets 2HKO by Dragon Pulse with HP EV's and Latias is faster then it so unless it is a Choice Scarf variant it will usually be slower and also Choice Scarf variants don't invest EV's in HP so Heracross is probably not a counter.

Never called it a counter, and I am referring to Scarf Heracross, which is why I said living a Dragon Pulse is possible, since if Hera comes in on a Dragon Pulse, it can live and OHKO with Megahorn. Specs D-Pulse is an issue, but I am referring to the Calm Minder.

Blissey and Snorlax do handle Latias pretty well but there are still ways for her to beat them.

Not Blissey. Not unless she uses some gimmicky ResTalk or Safeguard set.

Latias will be threat in OU even without Soul Dew. Sure Blissey and Snorlax can wall it to an extent but it still has huge coverage and 110 Spe, 110 SpAtk and 130 Spd.

Soul Dew was never mentioned to be tested in OU (unless Smogon did, which is ridiculous).

Latios is NOT better then Latias. He may have better Attack but he is far less bulky 80/80/110 compared to 80/90/130 is quite a difference. He is better offensively but Latias is bulkier and can support.

Offensively he is much better. Defensively she is much better. I'd choose offense personally, and with people actually running Specs sets on Latias, Latios will probably be preferred over his female counterpart.

I know the Choice Band set looks really bad but it actually works pretty well. Please take a look at the damage calculations. Don't randomly say "You're a noob! Latias can't use physical attacks!" because Togekiss can and it has base 50 Atk. :P

Uhhh

And I suppose nobody ever told you that CBKiss is just like Chain Chomp; you get your surprise value, but after that, it fails HARD.

Exactly. CB Latias sucks.

Anti:

And hey, Scarf Cresselia actually worked alright when I tested it for a short while (you know, before Plat changes and whatnot). Even if something works, if it is outclassed, why use it? I see your point, but Def. CBTar is an "Other Options" counter. I'm not disputing you bringing it up, since it is relevant in the sense that it counters Latios, but it isn't in the sense that Def. CBTar probably shouldn't be used and is turned into a "notable" counter but definitely not the ideal one. Especially since Surf and Draco Meteor still take off a ton of its health in the process and it can't recover off previously-taken damage.

The reason someone would use Special CBTar is that it can take hits as well as hit back hard. The same Tyranitar is used in Ubers to take hits from the likes of Mewtwo and Kyogre (not in the Rain of course).

As for CBLax, it's kind of like using a Ground-type that takes 90%-99% from Close Combat...it's technically a counter and even with SR damage it can survive the hit, but it HAS to be a full health switching in or it's almost certain to lose. Even if it doesn't, it is essentially a sacrifice (not to undermine how useful they can be) and is killed. I don't think CB Snorlax is even notable because of how shaky it is.

It's shaky, but it has other uses. I'm mentioning it because it can work, and not be "overcentralizing" or some garbage such as that.

that's why people don't say "yeah, Swampert is my SDLuke counter."

Unlike Swampert, Snorlax isn't OHKOed by Latios.

 

[Rhys29]

Latias is acceptable as T-Tar, Snorlax, and sometimes Blissey (only CM sets) counter it. However, I believe Latios would absolutely wreck OU in every way shape and form. This is 'theorymon' of course, but a Specs Boosted 130 base Draco Meteor will take out everything everywhere. It also has Trick and potential Dragon Dance/MixSweeper sets, so it will be rediculous imo. Latias can do pretty dang beastly though. When you are doing your calcs with T-Tar make sure you take Reflect sets into account btw.

 

[Anti]

Anti:

The reason someone would use Special CBTar is that it can take hits as well as hit back hard. The same Tyranitar is used in Ubers to take hits from the likes of Mewtwo and Kyogre (not in the Rain of course).

It's shaky, but it has other uses. I'm mentioning it because it can work, and not be "overcentralizing" or some garbage such as that.

Unlike Swampert, Snorlax isn't OHKOed by Latios.

I'm definitely editing the Counters section to include revenge killers and checks (and I'll throw in Def. CBTar too since it gets the job done though I won't be hyping it by any means).

^Let that be the end of it. I'm not including CBLax though since it's simply too shaky. I'll mention Snorlax as a whole though and might throw in a mention of CBLax being an okay check since it works well if it avoids Draco after all. But a counter it is not.

I agree with Rhys for the most part but I refuse to jump on the physical or even mixed Latios bandwagon. Salamence is better suited for that stuff anyway. The DD set is equally "ugh" since Salamence does that infinitely better. Also, I'm not going to call Latios a lock for the Uber tier just yet since Latias was decisively voted to OUs, and while they do different things and everything because of stat differences, they really aren't THAT different (not to imply that the differences don't mean anything because they can mean everything, but just saying).

I think Latios will be deemed Uber but I would not be surprised if it went the other way. I'm kind of eh about it since I don't really OU anymore, and as previously mentioned, a lot of this IS theorymon.

 

[.]

I don't see the point of DD Latios honestly. If you're using an inferior offensive set for the sake of "surprising" your enemy, you're better off using something with more Attack. For example, Specs Luke is pretty underrated, and Calm Mind Lucario is also unexpected but packs a nasty punch. DD Latios gets 418 Attack after a Dragon Dance (excluding Life Orb). That's not that impressive, and it still misses a good deal of OHKOs after a Dragon Dance. +1 LO Earthquake doesn't OHKO Max HP Tyranitar, and even with Stealth Rock it only OHKOs 7.69% of the time. Max HP Metagross is never OHKOd; regardless of SR or not.

I guess an argument can be made against Blissey, since Blissey takes 90% minimum from a DD boosted Outrage and is always OHKOed with Stealth Rock present.

 

[Pokedra]

I admit that Heracross can come in and OHKO Calm Mind Latias but it is also weak to Latias so it can beat her at times but it also can't at times.

CB Latias isn't the great I admit but it can suprise people. Anti I think the EV's are standard now since Blissey has become a more Special-based waller due to the increasing Special attacker threats.

Latios and Latias are equal. It's generally up to preference. I prefer Latias over Latios for the same reason as I prefer Mesprit over Azelf cause it can take a better then the latter but still has amzing offensive stats.

 

[Anti]

CB Latias isn't the great I admit but it can suprise people. Anti I think the EV's are standard now since Blissey has become a more Special-based waller due to the increasing Special attacker threats.

Surprising people doesn't matter. Being effective is what matters. CB Latias isn't effective. It's that simple.

And you're wrong, those are the two most common special wall Blissey EV spreads. Bold Blissey is still common as well (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk) and makes CB Latias even more of a joke. Blissey without Defense EVs is so horrible that even the weakest of physical attackers can 2HKO. I'm 100% sure I'm right on this one, check the usage statistics if you want. But Blissey is almost always running 119 Def or 130 Def (the final stat).

Latios and Latias are equal. It's generally up to preference. I prefer Latias over Latios for the same reason as I prefer Mesprit over Azelf cause it can take a better then the latter but still has amzing offensive stats.

That isn't true either >_> Azelf and Mesprit are two totally different Pokemon and both are used for completely different things. If it was simply "personal preference," Mesprit wouldn't be almost completely unseen in OUs while Azelf shines as the number one lead on the ladder. Latios and Latias are similar in many ways, but they're not similar enough that you can call them equal. Otherwise there wouldn't be two separate suspect tests.

 

[Pokedra]

Surprising people doesn't matter. Being effective is what matters. CB Latias isn't effective. It's that simple.

And you're wrong, those are the two most common special wall Blissey EV spreads. Bold Blissey is still common as well (252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk) and makes CB Latias even more of a joke. Blissey without Defense EVs is so horrible that even the weakest of physical attackers can 2HKO. I'm 100% sure I'm right on this one, check the usage statistics if you want. But Blissey is almost always running 119 Def or 130 Def (the final stat).

Yeah but more people are running Special-based walling Blissey. Bold is still common but I read somewhere on a Smogon forum more and more Blissey special-bsed walling variations are being used.

It's still an optional set though, you don't have to use it :).

That isn't true either >_> Azelf and Mesprit are two totally different Pokemon and both are used for completely different things. If it was simply "personal preference," Mesprit wouldn't be almost completely unseen in OUs while Azelf shines as the number one lead on the ladder. Latios and Latias are similar in many ways, but they're not similar enough that you can call them equal. Otherwise there wouldn't be two separate suspect tests.

They are different but not completely different. Mesprit functions as a wall or a sweeper. I reckon Mesprit is a bit underated. It doesn't get Nasty Plot or Explosion but it still is very balanced with 4 105 base stats plus CM and Boltbeam. The speed really lets it down.

Latias/Latios are not totally equals but they're very similar with Latias more defensive while Latios is offensive. I think Latios will be dropped to OU, it is a bigger threat then Latias but it isn't as bulky as her so it dies faster.

 

[Archer]

I don't see the point of DD Latios honestly. If you're using an inferior offensive set for the sake of "surprising" your enemy, you're better off using something with more Attack. For example, Specs Luke is pretty underrated, and Calm Mind Lucario is also unexpected but packs a nasty punch. DD Latios gets 418 Attack after a Dragon Dance (excluding Life Orb). That's not that impressive, and it still misses a good deal of OHKOs after a Dragon Dance. +1 LO Earthquake doesn't OHKO Max HP Tyranitar, and even with Stealth Rock it only OHKOs 7.69% of the time. Max HP Metagross is never OHKOd; regardless of SR or not.

I guess an argument can be made against Blissey, since Blissey takes 90% minimum from a DD boosted Outrage and is always OHKOed with Stealth Rock present.

To elaborate more on this, Adamant Salamence has 405 Attack before a Dragon Dance. Neither of which have a STAB on anything that complements Dragon Claw/Outrage, so Salamence outclasses it in that regard. Unless it really complements your team, where Salamence doesn't.... in that case you should still run another set. :D

As with any over-hyped addition to the Metagame, Latias will centralise the metagame until people get used to it; meaning its (Thankyou Anti) activity will drop and people will learn to deal with it better, as they do all threats.

One thing that is interesting about tier changes is that all new additions seem to be offensive threats and this manipulates the Metagame into a more offensive and extreme (as in, you almost have to stick to total Offence or Defence). I'd quite like to see the effect Deoxys-D would have on the Metagame, as the Defensive side of the spectrum has received little new material to work with. Anyway...

Pokedra, see if this get's its point across:

 Azelf      | Move         | Stealth Rock     |    53.0 
 Azelf      | Move         | Nasty Plot       |    14.7

Azelf isn't even a primary sweeper, so trying to compare it with Mesprit and Uxie is pointless. Every Pokemon is different to another in some way, so unless one completely outclasses another in every regard, there is a time and a place in which one similar pokemon will excel more than another. Latios and Latias are different, they play differently and have a different movepool. End of story.

 

[The Hero Without a Name]

Yeah but more people are running Special-based walling Blissey.

All of which ALWAYS have 252 Def EV's.

Bold is still common but I read somewhere on a Smogon forum more and more Blissey special-bsed walling variations are being used.

Yeah, because people just don't learn >_> here's some Smogoner's post on that regard:

You are all wrong about Blissey. Defense is its most important stat, it should be made to withstand physical hits as much as possible.

714/130 Blissey forever. Maximize its ability to take physical hits. If you were to move its HP EV's into Special Defense (652/369), you'd only gain a little bit more Special survivability (versus 714/306) at the cost of Physical survivability. With all the mixed attackers out there, you need to make Blissey as able as possible to take the random Brick Breaks and such.

wtf? and Jumpman backed him up on that post, leaving me beaten -.-

 

[Pokedra]

One thing that is interesting about tier changes is that all new additions seem to be offensive threats and this manipulates the Metagame into a more offensive and extreme (as in, you almost have to stick to total Offence or Defence). I'd quite like to see the effect Deoxys-D would have on the Metagame, as the Defensive side of the spectrum has received little new material to work with. Anyway...

Pokedra, see if this get's its point across:

 Azelf      | Move         | Stealth Rock     |    53.0 
 Azelf      | Move         | Nasty Plot       |    14.7

Azelf isn't even a primary sweeper, so trying to compare it with Mesprit and Uxie is pointless. Every Pokemon is different to another in some way, so unless one completely outclasses another in every regard, there is a time and a place in which one similar pokemon will excel more than another. Latios and Latias are different, they play differently and have a different movepool. End of story.

Whoops I forgot about the Anti-lead with Stealth Rock. Let's just say Azelf is good at both. It's fast so it can lay down Stealth Rock but it stats kinda point to a sweeper 125/125/115.

All of which ALWAYS have 252 Def EV's.

Not ALWAYS,it is still very, very common but apparently Special-walling based Blissey's are increasing in usage.

To prove my point go check the statistics of Smogon. Blissey runs Bold 50.7% of the time and Calm 43.2%. People run 150-200 SpD EV's around 20% of the time while and most people run 252 Def EV's 90% of the time. Yes, Bold Blissey is still FAR more popular but I've never really seen many Special-based walling Blissey's being used.

We're going off topic let's keep discussing Latias.

 

[Anti]

Okay seriously, enough of this CB Latias nonsense. I don't care what EV spread you're running on Blissey or on Latias, CB Latias is NOT a notable set. Neither is Calm 252 HP/216 SDef Blissey, but that's another story. I know you don't have to use it, but you can say that about any novelty set, but that doesn't make it notable, ever. Surprise value doesn't either, especially since Blissey actually survives your CBed STAB 120 base power hit (which is absolutely pathetic). I'm not saying it's unusable, I'm saying it's not notable in this thread or in any serious discussion or analysis about Lati@s. It's not going in and it never will be, end of story.

 

[Pokedra]

It's not a great set and we should stop discussing it. Sorry Anti :(

Could you edit the counters and put Tyranitar as a counter because it fares pretty well due to Crunch and Sand Stream boost? I've never used Tyranitar much so could you do a him in the counters?

 

[.]

To elaborate more on this, Adamant Salamence has 405 Attack before a Dragon Dance. Neither of which have a STAB on anything that complements Dragon Claw/Outrage, so Salamence outclasses it in that regard. Unless it really complements your team, where Salamence doesn't.... in that case you should still run another set.

I love it when people read. Who brings a Blissey into a Salamence? Unless you know for certain it's a SpecsMence (impossible without luck). It's suprise factor, although it still sucks outside of that.

 

[Pokedra]

I'll update the Counters section soon and I suppose I'll the CB set from Latias. Please everyone stick to discussing Latias not Salamence and Blissey.

 

[.]

I really advise against Choice Bander, honestly, it's just too weak. If you're going to mention it, at least Trick a slash so it can screw up things like Skarmory, Forretress, and other physical (lol) walls. Also is a nice Blissey screw-upper without resorting to Outrage.

 

[Pokedra]

I really advise against Choice Bander, honestly, it's just too weak. If you're going to mention it, at least Trick a slash so it can screw up things like Skarmory, Forretress, and other physical (lol) walls. Also is a nice Blissey screw-upper without resorting to Outrage.

Good idea! I'll add it, the set is pretty bad but it can kinda work. Don't bite my head off, the CM sets and Choice Specs are WAY better.