Lati@s

XD true that...

it's a good thing pokemon never went the digimon route and allowed pokes to fuse. BLISSLAX *frrraaaaaaaaawww*
 
In my opinion, Latias has a lot of competition for wishpassing. Comparing it with the usual Vaporeon/Blissey/Umbreon, you have to consider what the wishpasser is going to do besides Wishpassing.

Vaporeon can counter certain threats in the metagame, including Gyarados, Salamence and Garchomp but is not as effective at doing it than some other pokemon. What differentiates Vaporeon is Water Absorb, which allows it to come in on Waterfalls/Surfs taking -25% of damage. Wishpassing is not the limit of Vaporeon's utilities - it can BP some other stuff like Substitutes (130 base HP allows for bulky subs) and is light which means it can come in on Grass Knot users and counter them, most notably Infernape.

Blissey has monstrous HP and SpD, allowing her to function as a special wall and Wishpass at the same time. Blissey has only one weakness - Fighting.

Umbreon can Trap Pass and Curse Pass and Toxistall, but it has dropped down to BL due to lack of defenses, particularly the Fighting and Bug weakness hurts it a lot, and its inability to attack other than through Toxic allows Metagross and other steels to come in on it easily.

What can Latias do?

Latias has a great movepool, it can PsuedoPass other stuff, including Reflect and Light Screen. It has Refresh, healing its status, something that the other Wishpassers cannot boast.
But it is this myriad of options that leave Latias spoilt for choice. Other than Wish, it can afford 3 other move slots, and at least one of them has to be dedicated to an offensive move, be it Toxic or Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse. One should be for either Protect or Recover/Roost, which Latias wants more because of its unfortunate weaknesses and less than stellar defenses. The last slot can be dedicated to whatever you choose to fit on it, and this ends up with Latias being limited in its support movepool if it chooses to wishpass.
80/90/130 defences actually are less than Vaporeon, Umbreon and Blissey on the special side, higher than Blissey on the physical side but losing out to Vaporeon by a narrow margin and Umbreon obviously.
Latias also has the Psychic typing which gives it unfortunate weaknesses to Dark, along with Dragon which gives her a weakness to Ice. Both weaknesses can be exploited easily due to the commonness of Weavile, Mamoswine and Ice Beam users. Dark can be exploited by many pokemon, most notably Tyranitar and Metagross who can Pursuit Latias, locking it into a psuedotrap. Wish cuts down on the offensive coverage of the set, Latias can be walled by Metagross without HP Fire, and Tyranitar without Grass Knot. If you choose to add a support move like Reflect or Light Screen on the last slot and/or a reliable recovery move, your offensive options will be further depleted.
You may also quote the pure destructive power of Draco Meteor, but with that as an offensive move you are actually inviting Steels to switch in, and Draco Meteor without EV investment does not do crazy damage. Without a reliable move to deal with Pursuiters increases the possibility of being Pursuited after a Draco Meteor.
I also would like to add that Salamence does the Wishpassing with Draco Meteor job better having Intimidate on the physical side and resistances to a common physical type - Fighting. Salamence also has Flamethrower/Fire Blast to deal with Steels somewhat.

So that is theorymon on Latias emphasising its potential weaknesses and the fact that it is outclassed as a Wishpasser.

Please keep your fantasies about broken special walls out of this thread please. Glaceon is a sketchy Lati@s counter, it can't come in on Draco Meteors and still takes a lot from Lati@s attacks.
 
Latias can Reflect Pursuiters though, which knocks down the move's power. That's worthy of note.

It also poses a threat to sweep (even though Latios does that better obviously) since it has CM and has some awesome special choices to choose from. It also has better special defense than Salamence, while Salamence is superior at taking about any physical hit.

But when you think of it, both of these seem like worse Salamences that take special hits better but are Pursuit weak =0

EDIT: And a bunch of other differences >_>

Just to throw this out there, but these would absolutely suffocate Azelf :0
 
Last edited:
you mentioned salamence has a fighting resistance... umm so does latias. unlike salamence, it only has a limited X2 ice weakness which is almost disregarded as a weakness with exception of ice punch (which won't ohko it unless CB'd) and lowly occasional avalanche. and unlike salamence, latias doesn't lose value in wishpassing because it doesn't have a SR weakness.

and saying that it is walled by metagross, ttar and fellow pursuiters is a given that shouldn't even be mentioned. it has its undeniable counters as do other actual uber-classed pokemon but your example of wishpassers that outclass it have even MORE. ttar is undeniably a full on counter (if it doesn't have surf/grass knot) to latias, but latios can actually damage metagross while surviving STAB CB hits. let's now assume weavile as a major threat... it won't do much without CB and if it's a full defensive latios, it won't OHKO it then. then you have other pokes like heracross who have STAB SE hits to give the thing but have to sacrifice attack power if they want to hit it first or risk taking a lot of damage to OHKO it or something close to an OHKO with CB. so all in all, tyranitar is like the only surefire counter to this thing. hell, tyranitar scares ubers. several top-tier OU fall to it and if you don't remember, a lot of talk back then went around about ttar becoming uber classed this gen.

basically, when a poke like latias has very specific, yet, few counters that it can damage and force most of them to run certain sets, it's definitely overpowering the tier.
 
Samson said:
you mentioned salamence has a fighting resistance... umm so does latias. unlike salamence, it only has a limited X2 ice weakness which is almost disregarded as a weakness with exception of ice punch (which won't ohko it unless CB'd) and lowly occasional avalanche. and unlike salamence, latias doesn't lose value in wishpassing because it doesn't have a SR weakness.

and saying that it is walled by metagross, ttar and fellow pursuiters is a given that shouldn't even be mentioned. it has its undeniable counters as do other actual uber-classed pokemon but your example of wishpassers that outclass it have even MORE. ttar is undeniably a full on counter (if it doesn't have surf/grass knot) to latias, but latios can actually damage metagross while surviving STAB CB hits. let's now assume weavile as a major threat... it won't do much without CB and if it's a full defensive latios, it won't OHKO it then. then you have other pokes like heracross who have STAB SE hits to give the thing but have to sacrifice attack power if they want to hit it first or risk taking a lot of damage to OHKO it or something close to an OHKO with CB. so all in all, tyranitar is like the only surefire counter to this thing. hell, tyranitar scares ubers. several top-tier OU fall to it and if you don't remember, a lot of talk back then went around about ttar becoming uber classed this gen.

basically, when a poke like latias has very specific, yet, few counters that it can damage and force most of them to run certain sets, it's definitely overpowering the tier.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned, Salamence has Intimidate, and decent 95/80 defences, making it a prime candidate for a physical wall. Latias will arguably be compromising her overall defences if you invest heavily in Defence, and it does not make a good wall.
You will avoid Ice Attacks obviously, Latias Bug and Dark weaknesses hamper her a lot.

Sure, Lati@s can damage Metagross, but they get 2HKOed always by CBMetagross, and get 3HKOed by normal Metagross if it invests heavily in defences. Metagross also can come in on STAB Draco Meteor and shrug it off, and Lati@s only SE hit is HP Fire.
Latias takes a lot from Pursuit, neutering it.

One of the most clear definitions for uber is one that overcentralises the metagame.
I honestly can't see Lati@s doing much with its obvious counters and begin outclassed by many other pokemon.

Tyranitar scares Ubers, but does it overcentralise the metagame?
Shedinja scares Ubers, but does it overcentralise the metagame?

What is certain is that Lati@s has surefire counters. Many of the top-tier OU pokemon do not have surefire counters due to their immense versatility and strength. In the last post I made I sufficiently described Lati@s' weaknesses and surefire counters/revenge killers.

Just clarifying, a pokemon forcing another pokemon to run an extra move to deal with it effectively is hardly overcentralisation. Blissey runs a status move to stop it from being set-up fodder for the numerous set-up sweepers. Is that overcentralisation?
Metagross or Tyranitar do not need to run specific sets just to deal with Lati@s, most of their sets work well already.
 
i didn't say anything about running a certain move. i'm specifically discussing the fact that many sacrifices are required to be made concerning item and ev spread when trying to counter latias. blissey and friends have counters that they just can't avoid (for instance, CB attacks from any CB whore) while salamence puts your team at risk trying to avoid certain attacks. and investing solely in defense sounds like the smarter thing to do. consider that with full hp and defense, it's defensive abilities are nearly equal on either end. it still shrugs at SE special attacks and gives itself more room with CM at its disposal.

tyranitar has a x4 weakness to fighting, a typing that is quite superior and would be very common regardless of ttar having that weakness. it's not the fastest poke, has a weakness to another very common attack (EQ) found on pokes that are capable of being physically offensive (whom do an easy job of countering it) and does not have the best resistances (psychic, dark, fire... whoop dee doo). of course it wasn't going to change much of the metagame.

i wish you guys would stop using shedinja as any example. i shouldn't have to explain why THAT is a bad example.

and salamence ISN'T a physical wall even WITH intimidate. same for latias... the point was never to make a physical wall because clearly both can't function that way. though, latias is extremely flexible in its duties as something that receives a variety of damage, restores, and performs offenses.

pokes that apparently outclass latios are similar in the fact that they have surefire counters, but those surefire counters don't have to adjust themselves so much to satisfy damage performance as much as latias' counters do. for instance, CBers who counter blissey, vaporen, etc. can freely assume damage with predicted/unpredicted move choices and will most likely do decent damage. latias counters, however, don't always have the option of running CB because of a lack of speed they have themselves and risk being killed just to kill it. so what... run choice scarf? if you can't even OHKO it with CB, then there's no mistaking you won't be achieving much with scarf.

that's the kind of thing i'm talking about. overcentralise? hmm, that's not the word i would use. but it certainly overpowers and outclasses general tanking abilities in the OU tier.
 
If Lati@s invests in HP and Defence and has a +defence nature, its overall defences will be compromised as there is the omnipresent Ice and Ghost weakness and the advent of Life Orb and Choice Specs. CM takes an overly long time to set up, and Heracross and other fearsome physical sweepers are going to rape Lati@s even with those EVs.

If I invested solely in Special Defence and HP for Hippowdon, and put Curse on it, would that make me quasi-immune to any attack? No, for strong Special attacks still hurt a lot. The same situation with CroCune, it isn't that scary in D/P compared to Advance as many strong physical sweepers - Garchomp, Heracross will do a lot of damage. Without any CMs, special attacks still put a noticeable dent in Suicune.

I don't see any sacrifices being made on item and EV spread on any part. Metagross and Tyranitar can handle Lati@s even with the standard EV spread, and there is no reason to change it. By your reasoning, many pokemon have to change their movesets just to deal with Lati@s. Unfortunately none of that should happen.

They do not risk being killed to kill it, as Metagross takes ~30% from neutral attacks, and can 2-3HKO. Tyranitar has the SpDef boost from Sandstorm and Pursuit, hurting Lati@s even more. There is no need for an OHKO because the counters to Lati@s can take their attacks easily and then proceed to cripple/KO it in some way. It is like saying that Blissey should not be used as a special wall because it cannot OHKO special sweepers.

Okay, all of Latios sets are outclassed by Salamence and taken care of with almost the same counters. Latias isn't too different - even if she is running a defensive set she will still take loads from SE hits, which is courtesy of the secondary Psychic typing.

To determine which position a pokemon holds in a tier requires evidence of overcentralisation of the metagame - every team being centered around countering this particular threat. I reiterate, Lati@s defences are nowhere near stellar and its offensive abilities are hindered by its poor movepool.
 
poor movepool? it's movepool is anything but poor. what hinders it from being offensively inclined is its stats, not its movepool.

choice specs ice beam and shadow ball from special sweepers, although not OHKOing it, damages it just as much as ubers would be damaged from their weaknesses. again, pointing out the fact that it becomes vulnerable to things that are specifically meant to counter it is not disregarding the fact that it is able to endure more opposition with a focus on defense rather sp def. using hippowdon as an example is just disheartening because it performs entirely different than latias: 1. it's a physical wall that can actually be called a wall. 2. it has only one significant resistance and several common weaknesses and 3. it doesn't have a speed that gives it an advantage over its potential counters.

again, you're mentioning metagross and ttar who obviously wall it, attempting not to shed light on the fact that they are few who can safely approach it. and again, i'm not discussing moves themselves. i'm discussing items and ev spreads. the main point is that it has 110 base speed, allowing it to dismantle choice item users with inferior speed. wanna know why cresselia wasn't placed into ubers? its speed and mediocre movepool. latias has both of these qualities at its arsenal, forcing counters who can give it good damage to decrease their damage output if they want to actually hit it or decrease their survivability (because of having to invest in speed and offenses). basically, CB Heracross would have to go near max speed when Adamant to do enough damage to it, setting the usual HP evs it has aside.

and i never tried to make the point that latias poses a death threat to it's counters. however, it can cause damage to them scouting, not being fearful of an OHKO and even further, can increase its defenses before they even reach the field. unlike cresselia, it has recycled usage after it has been severely damage when it reenters, requiring more than one counter for it.

so if you're asking whether teams take it as a force to be reckoned with when being built, they should. it's defenses AREN'T that great, but it doesn't die easily and has the ability to take several casualties when it does.
 
Samson said:
poor movepool? it's movepool is anything but poor. what hinders it from being offensively inclined is its stats, not its movepool.

choice specs ice beam and shadow ball from special sweepers, although not OHKOing it, damages it just as much as ubers would be damaged from their weaknesses. again, pointing out the fact that it becomes vulnerable to things that are specifically meant to counter it is not disregarding the fact that it is able to endure more opposition with a focus on defense rather sp def. using hippowdon as an example is just disheartening because it performs entirely different than latias: 1. it's a physical wall that can actually be called a wall. 2. it has only one significant resistance and several common weaknesses and 3. it doesn't have a speed that gives it an advantage over its potential counters.

again, you're mentioning metagross and ttar who obviously wall it, attempting not to shed light on the fact that they are few who can safely approach it. and again, i'm not discussing moves themselves. i'm discussing items and ev spreads. the main point is that it has 110 base speed, allowing it to dismantle choice item users with inferior speed. wanna know why cresselia wasn't placed into ubers? its speed and mediocre movepool. latias has both of these qualities at its arsenal, forcing counters who can give it good damage to decrease their damage output if they want to actually hit it or decrease their survivability (because of having to invest in speed and offenses). basically, CB Heracross would have to go near max speed when Adamant to do enough damage to it, setting the usual HP evs it has aside.

and i never tried to make the point that latias poses a death threat to it's counters. however, it can cause damage to them scouting, not being fearful of an OHKO and even further, can increase its defenses before they even reach the field. unlike cresselia, it has recycled usage after it has been severely damage when it reenters, requiring more than one counter for it.

so if you're asking whether teams take it as a force to be reckoned with when being built, they should. it's defenses AREN'T that great, but it doesn't die easily and has the ability to take several casualties when it does.
Click to expand...

Its movepool may seem vast, but it doesn't do a good job countering the numerous things that are going to wall you. For example, Salamence gets Flamethrower/Fire Blast for Steels, while Lati@s has to settle for HP Fire. The loss of Shadow Ball doesn't hurt it either considering that the most common counters to it - Blissey, Tyranitar, resist or are immune to it, and inferior to its other options for damaging Metagross. Gengar and Mismagius likewise can be hit with about the same power with Dragon Pulse; higher with Draco Meteor, and they won't be switching into Lati@s anytime soon. The point that I am trying to bring across is that Lati@s has an inferior movepool which allows it to get walled by several common pokemon, and that an offensive set is generally outclassed by Salamence due to Flamethrower.

Ubers is a vastly different metagame from standard, it is more offense oriented and Latias is used as a special tank instead of a sweeper, about the same with Latios.

Okay, the counters being severely hindered by Lati@s higher base speed is not a good example, mainly because without speed investment Lati@s' base speed is a paltry 256, only enough to outrun base 77 252 neutral sweepers. What is more important is that its counters don't usually run speed - in Ttar's case about ~80 at max to outrun Skarm, in Meta its not required.

I was quoting Ttar and Metagross being its main counters in Ubers - even with the Soul Dew boost. I don't know its real counters in the standard metagame due to the differences in the Uber metagame and Standard.

Attempting to think of a list of counters:

Toxic/Twave Blissey (Lati@s without Refresh/Safeguard)
Crunch Snorlax
Registeel
Bronzong
CM Jirachi
Heatran
Magnezone?
Empoleon?
Scizor?

Oh I just listed out almost every steel in the game that has decent Special Defence.

Cresselia was not placed into Ubers because of its TYPING, which gives it unfortunate weaknesses, and the lack of a reliable recovery move besides Rest.
Latias also has the Psychic type, in addition it has the Dragon Type, so it can't wall Dragon special sweepers, mainly Salamence, and Ice Beam hurts a lot. Latias has a reliable recovery move but has crappier defenses than Cresselia, in addition to being unable to counter certain threats effectively.

CBHera is not a counter to Lati@s due to the low speed and possibility of being KOed by their attacks. Therefore CBHera should not be brought in to revenge kill Lati@s.

It fears OHKOs from many common pokemon if it has not invested heavily in defences, it can scout but it would just be pursuited by one of its counters.

Teams should prepare for it the same way they prepare for SpecsMence, unlike Lati@s it can switch in on stuff like Heracross because of Intimidate, and it truly fits the definition of a pokemon that can come back and deal damage.
Garchomp is also another example to quote, simply put it can switch in on Electric attacks taking minimal damage from SR and threatening with its base 102 speed.

Okay, I'm just going to run some general damage calculations with Sweeper Latios. (4 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Speed Timid)
Special Defensive Tyranitar - 240 HP/52 Atk/216 Sdef Careful
TyraniBoah - 252 HP/64 Attack/168 SpA/24 Spe

CB Max Attack Tyranitar Crunch on Latios - 175.4967% - 207.2848% (OHKO)
CB Max Attack Tyranitar Pursuit on Latios - 88.07947% - 103.9735% (2HKO, potential OHKO)
CB Max Attack Tyranitar Pursuit on Fleeing Latios - 175.4967% - 207.2848% (OHKO)
CB Special Defensive Tyranitar Crunch on Latios - 137.7483% - 162.9139% (OHKO)
CB Special Defensive Tyranitar Pursuit on Latios - 69.53642% - 82.11921% (2HKO)
CB Special Defensive Tyranitar Pursuit on Fleeing Latios - 137.7483% - 162.9139% (OHKO)
Jolly Tyranitar (Max Attack) Crunch on Latios - 105.9603% - 125.8278% (OHKO)
Quiet TyraniBoah Crunch on Latios - 93.37748% - 109.9338% (Potential OHKO)

Next, Metagross.

RestTalk Gross - 176 Attack

CB Max Attack Metagross Meteor Mash on Latios - 110.2649% - 130.1325% (OHKO)
CB Max Attack Metagross Pursuit on Latios - 59.60265% - 70.19868% (2HKO)
CB Max Attack Metagross Pursuit on Fleeing Latios - 117.8808% - 139.0728% (OHKO)
Max Attack LO Agiligross Meteor Mash on Latios - 95.36424% - 112.5828% (Potential OHKO)
RestTalk Gross Meteor Mash on Latios - 69.86755% - 82.78146% (2HKO)

Bronzong:

Standard Bronzong - 252 HP/152 Attack/8 Def/96 SpD, Relaxed, 0 Speed IV

Standard Bronzong Gyro Ball on Latios - 63.90728% - 75.49669% (2HKO)

I'll try to do the rest of the calculations later, but these three pose a threat to Lati@s due to their ability to shrug off most of its attacks.
 
Anti-Pop said:
BTW, I saw somebody mentioning that Toxic Blissey beats Latios, and I object to that. Substitute says hi.
Click to expand...


Sub is not viable on lati@s, firstly why would you use it ? If you run sub, you have to drop either Recover, Calm Mind or One of its attacking moves. Making it even more easier to wall.
 
Sub is very viable on Latios. It protects it from the ever-feared Pursuit and you can CM behind it. I love Recover, but you could play it like abetter Raikou, and it would most likely work.

Sub is viable on a lot of pokemon really.
 
Anti-Pop said:
Sub is very viable on Latios. It protects it from the ever-feared Pursuit and you can CM behind it. I love Recover, but you could play it like abetter Raikou, and it would most likely work.

Sub is viable on a lot of pokemon really.
Click to expand...

Which moveset would you use the optimize its sweeping ?


Recover/CM/Sub/.Dragon Pulse ? Thats not sweeping anything, Steels, T-Tar, Snorlax etc.

Thats my point,which ever move you drop, its walled easily.
 
I think al you've made a point about is that Latios is easily walled. Also, Latias is easily took down, so is actually worse than some normal OU pokes, as it has so many weaknesses.
 
EDIT: nvm, I keep adding Dugtrio to that equation >_>

BTW, I support it being moved down, though I can't help but think that we could be seeing the uber metagame creep into standards too much.
 
Anti-Pop said:
EDIT: nvm, I keep adding Dugtrio to that equation >_>

BTW, I support it being moved down, though I can't help but think that we could be seeing the uber metagame creep into standards too much.
Click to expand...


Nah, i think it will stop after this, there have been pokes that have been nerved from advance yo D/P., The main ones have been moved or are currently considered to be moved down.

Its not like Lugia, Giratina and Deoxys attack etc are gonna get moved down it it lol XD
 
Last edited:
When I saw Lugia I broke into laughter. Luckily I happen to have a Snorlax on my team so this won't hurt at all =) BTW I do support this, since they have enough counters I suppose.
 
I think it's just the fact that the Latis aren't Ubers, but the item, Soul Dew, is Uber. I say this because when the Latis are stripped of that, they're less than their normal selves, and don't function to their full ability without it.
 
Anti-Pop said:
When I saw Lugia I broke into laughter. Luckily I happen to have a Snorlax on my team so this won't hurt at all =) BTW I do support this, since they have enough counters I suppose.
Click to expand...

This seriously concerns me, to no end, and is why I hope that 5th gen will come soon. Hopefully, it won't get picked apart as easily.
 
OK, I haven't posted for a LONG time, so I am now demoted to a n00b....

but..there are A LOT of faster things that can Ice it to death. Those that aren't faster can at least switch in.

The problem is, every time you bring in a counter, they'd switch. And revenge killing is VERY obvious....

AH! I'm all for the Lati's getting into OU, but I can't think of any counters!!!! Especially since almost NOTHING OHKO's it (and there's a lot that doesn't 2HKO, either), while it's not very safe to switch in. Even very sturdy steels will be destroyed instantly by the CM version...if it has Sub (hint: Raikou).

Hmm..what to do....

Spoiler:
 
*Nightfall* said:
OK, I haven't posted for a LONG time, so I am now demoted to a n00b....

but..there are A LOT of faster things that can Ice it to death. Those that aren't faster can at least switch in.

The problem is, every time you bring in a counter, they'd switch. And revenge killing is VERY obvious....

AH! I'm all for the Lati's getting into OU, but I can't think of any counters!!!! Especially since almost NOTHING OHKO's it (and there's a lot that doesn't 2HKO, either), while it's not very safe to switch in. Even very sturdy steels will be destroyed instantly by the CM version...if it has Sub (hint: Raikou).

Hmm..what to do....

Spoiler:
Click to expand...



Read the past few pages please, i shouldnt have to ask that, reading the whole thread before posting is in the rules, it tells you some of the counters.

Yes, Garchomp is banned and has been for the past month.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top