Legend Rant... Sort of...

[Mister Coffee]

Okay, so here's my deal. I got a hold of a Legend that I've been wanting to try out for some competitive use. Deoxys. Awesome I thought, I'll start building a competitive team with it.
Which would be awesome... IF I COULD ACTUALLY COMPETE WITH IT.
All the forms of competitive play (Battle Laboratory, Battle Subway, and Wifi Battle) restrict a lot of the fun looking Legends.

So I have to ask, Game Freak... why do you bother making Legends when we can't even use them? Oh well we do get to use them... in the regular non-hard game mode only... So what do I get to do with the Legends when I beat all the trainers and get tired of beating the ever so easy Elite Four? Well they get to sit in my PC Box and collect dust... great... Thanks so much for those awesome Legends Game Freak that you wont allow me to use in all of the fun stuff in the game.

So Game Freak, do you mind either actually letting us use our Legends, or just stop making them in general?

I'm just ranting because I finally got an awesome Legend, and now I can't really use it. All I ever do is competitive play, cause that's what I love doing. (sigh) I guess I'll just go run through the pathetic Elite Four with Deoxys as he continuosly stomps on their faces unmercifully with little to no challenge... ugh boring...

So what do you guys think of the all the Legend Restrictions the Pokemon Games have? Do the Legends feel pointless to you because of this, because they feel pointless to me with all these restrictions.

 

[bobandbill]

I think the point of said restrictions in places like the battle tower is that otherwise it'd be just too darn easy to sweep with your ultra-super-amazing Pokemon. What I like about those sort of challenges is the, well challenge presented, and not letting us use legendaries is their way of keeping it difficult.

I don't think anything stops you from using legendaries against others in wifi battles though outside of the battle frontier so it's not like you can not use it full stop. It's just for one optional part of the game to keep it difficult.

 

[Kenshin5]

I wasn't aware they placed holds on Legends over wifi... Considering I see people playing Ubers all the time via wifi. As for stuff like Battle Frontier or just Battle Tower, Battle Subway what challenge would there be if you could use the powerful of the most powerful legends? Heck I'm pretty sure they let people use any legends in the prior VGC Tournaments.

I don't know what restrictions you are talking about in actual competitive play outside of the Tier system, which if you want to you are allowed to use Ubers on PO or Wifi which ever you choose to use. So I really don't see where you are coming from when you say "All forms of competitive play". And if they did let you use Legends in the Tower or Battle subway then the computers should have their AI boosted and have legends as well since it would be "competitive".

 

[Mister Coffee]

I understand what you guys are getting at, but think carefully then, so what are the Legends for then?
You can't have fun with them in the various competitive games. (I discount PO because it's not an actual Game Freak Nintendo game, I also don't play PO.)
I mean once you beat all of the main storyline stuff and then all you have is the Elite Four, what fun is that? I want to actually use my Legends but there's no challenge in fighting the Elite Four. It's flipping boring!
Also yes if you try to do Wifi Competitive mode on B/W it tells you that you can not use: Eggs, Mew, Celebi, Deoxys, Dialga, Giratina, Darkrai, Arceus, Victini, Zekrom, Kyurem, and Meloetta. Pokemon holding Soul Dew are also not allowed to enter.
^ That's what it will tell you if you try to use any of those things.

Fine, here's the thing then. Why don't they make a competitive mode for using legends that warns you ahead of time that it uses Legends.
Or why not invent a mode where you can fight tough NPC's and use Legendary Pokemon.

Seriously, I'm just tired of useless Legends. Either allow us to use them, make ones we can use that are not OP, or just stop making them all together so that they don't feel like useless pokemon.
Is that too much to ask from Game Freak?

Seriously, what am I supposed to do with all these cool Legendary Pokemon? I want to use them but I can't. So what am I supposed to do with them? Put them on display in my PC while they look pretty? Bore Fest...

 

[bobandbill]

I understand what you guys are getting at, but think carefully then, so what are the Legends for then?

For story purposes, for being that one-of-a-kind rare Pokemon, for something extra to do in the game (ie the challenge of catching them in the first place)... Battling in the battle frontier is not the only use for a Pokemon after all. (Also - they can be used for many a laugh in the musicals =p).

Also yes if you try to do Wifi Competitive mode on B/W it tells you that you can not use: Eggs, Mew, Celebi, Deoxys, Dialga, Giratina, Darkrai, Arceus, Victini, Zekrom, Kyurem, and Meloetta. Pokemon holding Soul Dew are also not allowed to enter.

So don't do competitive mode I suppose...? I believe that shouldn't be the only wifi battling option, although granted I haven't done wifi battles in a good while, and certainly not in BW.

Fine, here's the thing then. Why don't they make a competitive mode for using legends that warns you ahead of time that it uses Legends.
Or why not invent a mode where you can fight tough NPC's and use Legendary Pokemon.

That'd require a lot of extra coding then, to have a mode just for having Pokemon that are deemed too strong by them. Have to have all that data for Pokemon designed for beating one using legendaries and all for something that's a pretty minor issue - far simplier for them to just have the restriction. Not that it can't be improved (say they could do it like Pokemon Colosseum's Mt Battle challenge did - you could use legendaries, you just got less of a reward in the pokecoupons - or they could let you use legendaries but it won't count towards the streak), but whatever way they go with it won't please everyone (case in point with this thread! Most people I know don't mind it, but...there's no best way for everyone).

 

[The 100 Mega Shock]

They've always been intended for local multi player battling as post-game rewards, or for rewards given to the player during story progression to make it easier to beat the rest of the story content.

They're simply excluded from random match-ups because you're not sitting across from someone or trading Friend Codes with who you can then ask to knock it off. (Also because Random battles are Ranked on the GBU) Similarly they're excluded from battle events that are supposed to be challenging because they're designed to be superior to everything else for storytelling purposes.

 

[Mister Coffee]

This makes me sad, because I've been looking forward to the release of Meloetta (Which from what I've looked into has got to be one of the coolest and most fun to play Legends), but now that I know I will never really be able to use Meleotta, I now just don't care about it.
So in not allowing me to use the Legends, Game Freak has successfully killed the hype for any possible Legends they might release in the future for me.

Whoop dee freaking doo for Legend tie in's for making the story seem more interesting. You know what would make the story more interesting and stick in your head better, is if you were able to utilize the Legends, and their usefulness would reflect you on their story line.

Here's another question... so we can use Reshiram, Mewtwo, Palkia, Genesect, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Shaymin, Jirachi, "The Lake Trio", "The Beast Trio", "The Bird Trio", "The Kami Trio", and those new weird Fighting Legends (Virizion, Cobalion, etc...), but we can't use the Legends listed?

So then why can we use Palkia but not Dialga? How come we can use Reshiram but not Zekrom? What about Jirachi? That Legend is insanely scary... but Deoxys is not allowed? Also Mewtwo is way scarier and more abusive than Mew. So what's the deal with that?
Why are we allowed to play with Genesect but not Meloetta? (<-- This bothers me a ton! I was definitely looking forward to playing with Meloetta!)

It just bothers me a ton and has no response as to why it's like this! I want some answers from Game Freak and some possible resolutions for this issue.

What amazes me is that this whole thing doesn't bother you guys. Don't you guys feel like your freedom in your game is being restricted or anything like that, or do you guys really just don't care?

 

[bobandbill]

This makes me sad, because I've been looking forward to the release of Meloetta (Which from what I've looked into has got to be one of the coolest and most fun to play Legends), but now that I know I will never really be able to use Meleotta, I now just don't care about it.

Only you can use it - just not for that part of the game. Try not-competitive wifi. Alternatively don't worry too much about it with Pokemon not even yet released.

Whoop dee freaking doo for Legend tie in's for making the story seem more interesting. You know what would make the story more interesting and stick in your head better, is if you were able to utilize the Legends, and their usefulness would reflect you on their story line.

You asked what is the reason for legendaries, and that's basically it. In fact their main purpose is not to make the game a walkover in the battle tower. If you don't like having any sort of plot in the game or a extra side quest to do then... that's your preference. But that's their purpose and it seems to satisfy the majority of players. And again, besides those optional modes, you can use them, and their usefulness would stick out darn well to the typical player (a kid) if they put them in their team for in-game gameplay. I also don't know what the purpose of your 'stick in your head better' statement is. =|

Here's another question... so we can use Reshiram, Mewtwo, Palkia, Genesect, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Shaymin, Jirachi, "The Lake Trio", "The Beast Trio", "The Bird Trio", "The Kami Trio", and those new weird Fighting Legends (Virizion, Cobalion, etc...), but we can't use the Legends listed?

So then why can we use Palkia but not Dialga? How come we can use Reshiram but not Zekrom? What about Jirachi? That Legend is insanely scary... but Deoxys is not allowed? Also Mewtwo is way scarier and more abusive than Mew. So what's the deal with that?

Only Game Freak know - they have their own reasonings and we can't really say why someone else chose so-and-so. And many of those legendaries you named aren't in the fanmade uber tier from what I know so it's not just them who think some legendaries didn't need to be restricted.

I want some answers from Game Freak and some possible resolutions for this issue.

Only way to get an answer from them is to send them an email and that won't likely give you an answer anyways.

What amazes me is that this whole thing doesn't bother you guys. Don't you guys feel like your freedom in your game is being restricted or anything like that, or do you guys really just don't care?

Nothing is perfect about a game - every game has its problems, so focusing on them won't really help much. That and as far as problems go, this is a really minor one. It's not one that breaks the game or has bad controls or anything, and is only in an optional part of the game you aren't restricted to.

As for 'freedom being restricted' - when there's 600 other Pokemon I can use for an optional part of the game I really don't think this is a case of freedom being restricted, sorry. When you throw about statements like that I can't help but think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[PlatinumDude]

The legendary restrictions are there for a reason: so that you don't get an easy sweep with Pokemon with high stats and wide movepools while preventing the AI from doing the same, as bobandbill said. But you can still use those Pokemon against your friends.

 

[Mister Coffee]

Ugh... fine, I'll just accept the fact that Legends are pretty much useless.
I do enjoy the variety of pokemon. There are a lot of awesome pokemon to use. I just want to use my Legends some times.

I mean maybe you just have never been in the situation I was in. I just got a real Deoxys. I was freaking excited, ready to build a new team around it and people tell me how awesome it is. So I build a semi useful team that can utilize Deoxys. I go into the Pokemon Center to get ready for Wifi play and then... they reject my team because of Deoxys. I feel like I just got trolled by Game Freak.

I used to play pokemon with my friends (where I think you can use Legends), but they don't play it any more, so here I am with my White version by myself, so what's the next best thing? Wifi play. I love the competitive edge, it's just my favorite. I mean yes I can use my favorite teams and all that but, now my super awesome Deoxys feels like a waste! I seriously can't do anything with it. As I'm typing this right now, I'm sweeping through the Elite Four with little to no need to think...

All I want is just some competitive edge with a little love to the Legends.

Also at the fact that you guys bring up the worry of Legends constantly sweeping, well what do you guys have to say about Dragonite? That's pretty much all Dragonite ever does and yet there's no restriction on him. I'm not saying that Dragonite should be banned (Even though I do hate Dragonite.). I'm just saying that constant sweeping is not an excuse for restricting Legends when there are a bunch of other non-legendary pokemon that easily sweep constantly.

 

[Oryx]

If you really did love the competitive edge then you'd understand why having legendaries pretty much stomps out all actual competition when it comes to the games. Might as well just fill up your team with 6 Arceus because why bother with anything else? They'll sweep you anyway because of ridiculous stats, no need to bother with any strategy or teambuilding or anything.

As far as Dragonite, even in Smogon it's not banned. I don't play competitive too much myself but I do know that and I'm sure more competitive people than me can explain the checks that make Dragonite fine for normal play. If you really wanted to worry about something I would worry more about Pokemon such as Excadrill being allowed, as well as Thundurus.

What you're doing here is projecting your opinions on Pokemon onto everyone else. You claim that legendaries are "useless" because their purpose isn't to do what you in particular like to do. Just because they can't be used the way you want they're useless? That's a mighty large assumption there. There are millions of other people that play Pokemon and they don't all think that the sole purpose of Legendaries is to compete with them on wi-fi, so your assumption is far off.

 

[Mister Coffee]

If you really did love the competitive edge then you'd understand why having legendaries pretty much stomps out all actual competition when it comes to the games. Might as well just fill up your team with 6 Arceus because why bother with anything else? They'll sweep you anyway because of ridiculous stats, no need to bother with any strategy or teambuilding or anything.

As far as Dragonite, even in Smogon it's not banned. I don't play competitive too much myself but I do know that and I'm sure more competitive people than me can explain the checks that make Dragonite fine for normal play. If you really wanted to worry about something I would worry more about Pokemon such as Excadrill being allowed, as well as Thundurus.

What you're doing here is projecting your opinions on Pokemon onto everyone else. You claim that legendaries are "useless" because their purpose isn't to do what you in particular like to do. Just because they can't be used the way you want they're useless? That's a mighty large assumption there. There are millions of other people that play Pokemon and they don't all think that the sole purpose of Legendaries is to compete with them on wi-fi, so your assumption is far off.

^ First off Toujours I'd like to ask... u mad?

Second of all I'm not projecting my opinions onto others, I am simply stating my side of the case. I am explaining why I feel most Legendary Pokemon are useless as they are now, I also in addition to this ASKED if anybody felt the same way about this. Apparently nobody agrees with me but I still stick by my argument.

Third, I never said Dragonite should be banned. I may hate it, but it should not be banned and neither should Excadrill. Yes of course Dragonite can be killed, but so can Legendary Pokemon. Every Pokemon can be beaten. Also Dragonite is a nasty and mean sweeper, and if you say it isn't than you are lying to yourself, or have just not fought enough Dragonites.

I am not worried about Thundurus, I've killed them before in online play and other people have beaten them as well. I have never once complained about having to fight any of the Kami pokemon. The kami pokemon do not need to be banned and as far as I'm convinced neither do ANY of the Legends.

Also nobody is going to play with 6 of any one pokemon, all forms of competitive play do not allow that and as far as I'm convinced that's a reasonable restriction.

I think all Pokemon is fair game and when I say all Pokemon that means Legends too. Competitive Play in pokemon is a constantly adapting form of Pokemon. If one particular pokemon becomes increasingly popular, the rest of the Competitive community learns to adapt to this and begins putting pokemon on their team with the idea in mind of destroying specific threats. This happens ALL THE TIME. It's simply the natural order of competitive play. You find out what the strong players are utilizing and you either use them yourself or use their weaknesses to bring them down. That's what competition is all about. Banning pokemon isn't making the game better, all it's doing is just restricting your selection of pokemon and making losers who don't know how to overcome obstacles, feel better about themselves.

All in all, Legends as far as I'm convinced are Fair Game and should be allowed for competitive use. There is nothing wrong with them and they have their own individual set of checks and balances just like every other pokemon ever made.

I would also like to end this by saying, Toujours there is absolutely no reason for you to flame me and that was exactly what you were doing with your post. You are a mod and should know better, and yes I am calling you out on this. I would prefer if you did not flame me again and just let me state my opinion of the argument. I have no issue with you contributing to the discussion but I will not let a mod come into the discussion thread I have posted and Flame me. If you do so again I will report you to a different Mod on this web site.

 

[The 100 Mega Shock]

You've completely misunderstood the reason for restricting Pokémon in competition.

All in all, Legends as far as I'm convinced are Fair Game and should be allowed for competitive use. There is nothing wrong with them and they have their own individual set of checks and balances just like every other pokemon ever made.

This is simply not true. By design they have higher stat totals than regular Pokémon which means they come at an inherent advantage in battle. You yourself mentioned Deoxys in your first post, and that's a great example - Speed Form is the fastest of all Pokémon, while Attack Form is even worse: it has the greatest Attack and Special Attack of all Pokémon as well as being faster than anything except Speed Form and Ninjask at the same time.

Because they have higher stat totals, even if there are regular Pokémon that have a higher individual attack, speed or defence than a particular legendary, they will still end up coming short in the rest of their stats. On average they're faster, stronger and more resilient than other Pokémon, even if there are outliers that surpass them in a single stat.

Unrestricted competitive play means that when player skill is at an even level, you put yourself at an immediate disadvantage by not picking from a small pool of Pokémon that are aided by their great stats coupled with a good movepool, resistances or abilities. There's over twice as many Pokémon that are viable in OU battling than Ubers.

 

[Oryx]

^ First off Toujours I'd like to ask... u mad?

Second of all I'm not projecting my opinions onto others, I am simply stating my side of the case. I am explaining why I feel most Legendary Pokemon are useless as they are now, I also in addition to this ASKED if anybody felt the same way about this. Apparently nobody agrees with me but I still stick by my argument.

Third, I never said Dragonite should be banned. I may hate it, but it should not be banned and neither should Excadrill. Yes of course Dragonite can be killed, but so can Legendary Pokemon. Every Pokemon can be beaten. Also Dragonite is a nasty and mean sweeper, and if you say it isn't than you are lying to yourself, or have just not fought enough Dragonites.

You just asked in the CBC thread the checks and counters to Dragonite and got answers, very in depth ones that explained what Pokemon to use against it. Don't ignore them, those people are very knowledgeable on the subject. Meanwhile, if you asked them what the checks were to Arceus, they would promptly tell you "there aren't any" (and will probably also be confused because who asks that, lol). Ask the same thing about Pokemon that are banned, and you'll get to hear the wonderful reasons why they're also banned on Smogon.

I am not worried about Thundurus, I've killed them before in online play and other people have beaten them as well. I have never once complained about having to fight any of the Kami pokemon. The kami pokemon do not need to be banned and as far as I'm convinced neither do ANY of the Legends.

Once again, ask the people in CBC if you don't believe me, but it's banned from Smogon for a reason and I think you were probably just lucky in running into some kid whose thoughts into his team members were "I like thundurus!"

Also nobody is going to play with 6 of any one pokemon, all forms of competitive play do not allow that and as far as I'm convinced that's a reasonable restriction.

If legendaries isn't reasonable to restrict, why should more than one of a species be reasonable to restrict? You're killing the competitive edge, man! If someone works so hard to get 6 Arceus and builds their team around them, they should be allowed to play! You can kill them, all Pokemon can be beaten remember?

I think all Pokemon is fair game and when I say all Pokemon that means Legends too. Competitive Play in pokemon is a constantly adapting form of Pokemon. If one particular pokemon becomes increasingly popular, the rest of the Competitive community learns to adapt to this and begins putting pokemon on their team with the idea in mind of destroying specific threats. This happens ALL THE TIME. It's simply the natural order of competitive play. You find out what the strong players are utilizing and you either use them yourself or use their weaknesses to bring them down. That's what competition is all about. Banning pokemon isn't making the game better, all it's doing is just restricting your selection of pokemon and making losers who don't know how to overcome obstacles, feel better about themselves.

If one Pokemon is so overpowered that nothing can destroy it specifically, or to destroy it you have to play with a certain Pokemon, then the game just...isn't fun anymore. Would you like to have two of the Pokemon on your team decided for you before the match starts, otherwise you'll lose? That's the point. You want to be able to design your team to be what you want. If one Pokemon has only one other Pokemon that brings it down, that means you have to have both on your team. One to bring down everything that's not that Pokemon, and one to bring that down on everyone that inevitably uses that Pokemon because it's so strong. What's fun about cutting down your choices to four Pokemon if you want to be any good competitively? That's the idea behind banning.

All in all, Legends as far as I'm convinced are Fair Game and should be allowed for competitive use. There is nothing wrong with them and they have their own individual set of checks and balances just like every other pokemon ever made.

A team of legends can only be taken down by a team of legends if you're any good at playing said team. I'd rather my online experience have a variety of teams, not just the same strongest 6 legendaries.

I would also like to end this by saying, Toujours there is absolutely no reason for you to flame me and that was exactly what you were doing with your post. You are a mod and should know better, and yes I am calling you out on this. I would prefer if you did not flame me again and just let me state my opinion of the argument. I have no issue with you contributing to the discussion but I will not let a mod come into the discussion thread I have posted and Flame me. If you do so again I will report you to a different Mod on this web site.

Lol flaming? Not sure what made you think that, maybe it was the italicized "you"? Maybe it was the implication that you don't love being competitive, you just love winning...Either way nothing I said is flaming and you're welcome to report me if you'd really like, lol.

 

[Sydian]

This seems more like you have a beef with CBC or BW's Wi-Fi battle settings. Or some ish. But really, chill the hell out. It doesn't help that people answer you and you don't take any advice. Why ask when you refuse to learn, or refuse to listen to other opinions? Isn't that the purpose of asking questions? If you wanna complain about BW's wi-fi, then do it in the "what I don't like about BW" thread or whatever it's called. And as for CBC stuff...I don't delve there. What happens in CBC stays in CBC. But at this point, you're just ranting and raving and ignoring what everyone has to say, so if you wanna continue that, do it outside of my section. Thanks.

Locked.