Metagame Discussion Thread

[Malicious Metang]

I agree and disagree at the same time. I agree that that sort of mentality CAN be bad, but only if you assume that you can determine tier placement by speculating alone. For example, there's no harm in thinking that Dugtrio will be overpowered and arguing for it as long as you know that it's theorymon and your opinion could be completely wrong. As long as people know the limits of theorymon, it's not really bad for the metagame at all. When people stop being open-minded is when, I agree, it would be bad. But eh, speculating is pretty harmless. Anybody who is against testing though is cheating the system though, I agree. I think Heracross will overpower UU since it has two 120 base power STABs of of 125 base Atk and is essentially a better Gallade (which was voted BL), but who knows, Heracross could actually do worse than Gallade.

I'm all for a person having an open opinion as to what he/she feels would be broken in the metagame. Still, it's opinions like this that led to everyone being too hesitant to test these Pokemon in the lower tiers due to complete theorymon, and it went from a harmless opinion to what was not allowed in UU. Either way, Heracross would definately be an interesting addition to UU, sporting a massive Attack stat and wonderful STABs. It's ironically walled by what Gallade wasn't walled by (Weezing, Nidoqueen), and it is not walled by what Gallade was walled by (Spiritomb, Slowbro). Just a little interesting note ^__^

 

[Archer]

I'm all for a person having an open opinion as to what he/she feels would be broken in the metagame. Still, it's opinions like this that led to everyone being too hesitant to test these Pokemon in the lower tiers due to complete theorymon, and it went from a harmless opinion to what was not allowed in UU. Either way, Heracross would definately be an interesting addition to UU, sporting a massive Attack stat and wonderful STABs. It's ironically walled by what Gallade wasn't walled by (Weezing, Nidoqueen), and it is not walled by what Gallade was walled by (Spiritomb, Slowbro). Just a little interesting note ^__^

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying for a minute that anything should be an exception to the system or that it shouldn't be tested, I was merely throwing my opinion down. I just think that it seems strange that something that has been high-OU for a long time will potentially drop to UU. I'm all for tier changes and shifting things where it's appropriate, but it's not like usage is a perfect guide for tier status. I'm aware that's what testing is for, which is why I never mentioned that it shouldn't be tested.

It'll be interesting, nonetheless, but with regards to the Nidoqueen comments, Heracross does have access to Earthquake, which will make more of an impact than anything on its standard set; keep in mind I'm not saying it won't be an obstacle, but just because a pokemon is walled by something in one tier, it doesn't mean the altered movesets for the new tier will necessarily be that same, thus not always walled by the same things. Obviously Weezing still lols at it. :cer_laugh:

 

[Aquilae]

Theorymon time!

Hera checks / counters:

Weezing
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Muk
Haunter
Mismagius

Basically a lot of Poison / Ghost types here, resisting Megahorn and CC. Hera doesn't use Stone Edge often, base 85 Speed isn't that high so Nidoking / Nidoqueen can outspeed and KO, Haunter and Mismagius too although they can't one-shot it. If Hera runs SD or Burn Orb it'd get hurt by recoil and a revenge-killer can finish it off.

Its sort of like Blaziken, looks absolutely deadly on paper (Blaziken seems more deadly actually) but can be worked around.

 

[Archer]

Theorymon time!

Hera checks / counters:

Weezing
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Muk
Haunter
Mismagius

Basically a lot of Poison / Ghost types here, resisting Megahorn and CC. Hera doesn't use Stone Edge often, [S-HIGHLIGHT]base 85 Speed isn't that high so Nidoking / Nidoqueen can outspeed and KO,[/S-HIGHLIGHT] Haunter and Mismagius too although they can't one-shot it. If Hera runs SD or Burn Orb it'd get hurt by recoil and a revenge-killer can finish it off.

Its sort of like Blaziken, looks absolutely deadly on paper (Blaziken seems more deadly actually) but can be worked around.

I'm not 100% sure of what you meant in the highlighted text. Nidoqueen's Base 76 or something iirc, and Nidoking is base 85. Unless Nidoking runs 252 Spd and a +Spd nature, it's not guaranteed to outrun Hera. That's considering you don't run Jolly on Heracross, which it can probably get away with in a lower tier.

I don't know if you missed it, but Earthquake is a big problem for Nidoqueen, Nidoking and Muk. I'm not running calcs now, but I'm willing to bet it's a 2-3 KO, especially on Muk. With regards to "Hera doesn't use Stone Edge often", past trends don't necessarily apply to UU.

I think if we look at Heracross, we need to look at it as the sum of it's possible moves and sets, rather than just copying over the old standards, and assuming they will be used the same way.

Oh, I'm not sure what it's like now, but I remember when UU+ first started, Toxic Spikes were pretty popular, so that might be something to consider in combination with Guts.

 

[Anti]

Weezing

I simply can't argue with this one.

Nidoqueen

Earthquake. granted, being locked into Earthquake isn't a cool situation, but it works to lure out Nidoqueen and do a ton of damage. It's still a fine check though.

Nidoking

Even Megahorn/CC does up to 75% to this. Switching Nidoking into Heracross is absolute suicide unless you know for sure that it's using Stone Edge...but even that does up to 42% damage lol. No way this is a check - it could revenge kill, but this is WAY too frail to check Heracross.

Also, you can't forget Poison Point, which makes Heracross virtually unstoppable if he gets lucky, unless you revenge kill it. Granted, it wears Heracross down quickly, but OHKOing with resisted attacks would probably make up for that lol.

Muk

Earthquake. Also, Megahorn/CC has a 50% chance of OHKOing 80 Def/252 HP Muk with SR down...that's pretty impressive. Meanwhile, Muk can't KO back, so it probably isn't going to win. Stone Edge has a 100% chance of a 2HKO with SR down. Again, it's a VERY shaky. I wouldn't call it a check, personally.

Haunter

Megahorn, 4x resisted though it is, does up to 74% to this, so it's basically Nidoking but with more immunities. I guess those make it a check, but it's not sturdy at all and is pretty horrible Heracross defense.

Mismagius

Basically a worse Haunter without Poison dual typing. Stone Edge does 97% minimum to 48 HP/min Def Mismagius. Megahorn does 87% mimimum, which has a VERY high chance of OHKOing with SR down. And like Muk, it can't do a whole lot back, or at least not enough to stop Heracross.

With the exception of Weezing, every single one of those "counters/checks" can be dealt with, and almost all of them with very little prediction. You can just spam Megahorn and still do tons of damage. The best comparison I can make would be like Modest Specs Latios' Draco Meteor in OU (and no, I'm not trying to compare the Pokemon, just the power of their STAB attacks).

If I was building a team, I simply wouldn't feel safe having one or even two of those checks (unless it's Weezing/Nidoqueen). Those two are pretty stable and I'd feel reasonably secure with them, but everything else can EASILY be overpowered, half of the time just by pressing the Megahorn button. Will that make Heracross broken? That's for the test to find out. But you need really good Defense and typing to have any shot of walling it, or you just lose. OU is faster and stronger than UU, and Heracross also had to predict accurate or it basically did nothing. In UU, it can overpower things since their defenses are weaker than OU Pokemon, generally. Even the mighty Nidoqueen can only switch in once before it's at the mercy of Heracross' STAB attacks (which do up to 39& to the defensive variants).

...And none of this is even considering Guts or that these Pokemon could have taken prior damage (since they're usually used to do other things and beat other Pokemon...and if they're not, that says an awful lot about how good Heracross is). This is basically the same argument I used earlier with D_A - Heracross just isn't going to be stopped by these Poison- and Ghost-types unless they have the defense to take a beating (like Weezing). Heracross may very well turn out to be fine in UU (if it ever falls that far, and I don't even think it will but meh), but it's going to be able to overpower a lot of stuff. Its Speed will likely be its number one issue, just like it was in OU. I mean, Heracross is solid almost everywhere else.

I'm all for tier changes and shifting things where it's appropriate, but it's not like usage is a perfect guide for tier status. I'm aware that's what testing is for, which is why I never mentioned that it shouldn't be tested.

We have nothing else to go off of though. That's kind of like complaining about how old a car is when it's the only way you can escape impending doom - it might be imperfect, but it's the best we've got, so we need to make the most of it. And to be fair, saying something shouldn't be dropped to UU because of usage is basically saying it shouldn't be tested...since it can't be tested if it's not in UU ._. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your posts, but I don't quite get what you're trying to say.

 

[Calum.]

tbh, I see Heracross, and mainly the CB version, as a bit like Dragonite.

Dragonite has a larger movepool to Salamence, but it's speed is it's main undoing

Heracross has more versatility the Scizor and is slower, because really Scizor's main attack is BP.

Too powerful for UU, but outclassed in OU

 

[Eos Aduro]

tbh, I see Heracross, and mainly the CB version, as a bit like Dragonite.

Dragonite has a larger movepool to Salamence, but it's speed is it's main undoing

Heracross has more versatility the Scizor and is slower, because really Scizor's main attack is BP.

Too powerful for UU, but outclassed in OU

So that makes it automatically BL without a playtest? It still needs to run its course through the UU circuit, even if briefly. Also, some counters were left out here for Heracross.

Arcanine outspeeds and can OHKO Heracross with Flare Blitz, considering that Heracross isnt scarfed. As a revenge killer primarily, but it could switch in on a SD. Swellow can also revenge kill with Brave Bird, also, can't switch in excluding Earthquake.

With the correct EVs, Hariyama can be a decent counter, Close Combat is the only move that can really threaten him and with the standard physical tank EVs its always a 2HKO with a Band or a SD, but if he has neither Hariyama can defeat him by either phazing with Whirlwind, or Stone Edge can do decent enough damage to either get him low enough to be easily revenge killed, or if the EVs are more indebted to defense, by being Close Combated the defense lower makes it easy to be KOd by Stone Edge

Yanmega can switch in on an anticipated Earthquake to get a Speed Boost and kill him with an Air Slash, but if SR is in play thats a sacrifice of 50%.

Now these 4 are just examples, Heracross is still a massive threat, and Hariyama isnt a straight counter unless you take enough attack that Stone Edge still 2HKOs and add it to HP, which would sufficiently help it counter.

Heracross is a Pokemon that I believe is going to be sent to UU for a short time and be moved to BL VERY fast, its OU usage shows it isnt working in the metagame because Scizor is the better bub, but it is too strong for UU.

 

[Anti]

Before this gets mentioned again, can I just say that revenge killing choiced attackers is a terrible way to rely on beating them? This isn't like DDMence or even SDCross where it takes a turn (or maybe more) to set up, and by forcing it out, it loses its advantage. Forcing choiced attackers out is easy since they are locked into one move, which means that they're easy set-up bait for anything that has a resistance or immunity to the attack being used (well, usually). CBers are called hit and run Pokemon for a reason - they hit, and then they run. Forcing them to run isn't somehow defeating them since that's in their DNA anyway. Unless you're revenge killing with Pursuit, it's typically a faulty argument. Saying "oh, well we can revenge kill CBCross" is kind of like saying that you can keep dive bombers at bay because they stop bombing you temporarily after they inflict heavy damage. I'm not really trying to single out anyone, but I just wanted to point that out since a few people have brought it up and I think it's relevant to the discussion, so yeah. lol.

 

[Archer]

its OU usage shows it isnt working in the metagame because Scizor is the better bub, but it is too strong for UU.

This was basically what I was trying to say. It may not even be right, but that's what I was thinking when I posted that at 1am.

I can see what you mean with the car analogy, Anti, but given that logic, there's nothing to stop me complaining about the car. Even if it is useless. :cer_nod: Just ignore anything that doesn't sound right - Chances are, if you don't agree with me, I'm wrong. xD

This really makes me want to use CBHeracross in OU for a while now.

Another fun fact that someone's probably already mentioned: Depending on what happens with Dugtrio, I can see it's usage spiking for revenging Heracross - one of the few viable ways to revenge kill a Choice User, as I agree with Anti about revenging Banders.

 

[Malicious Metang]

Ironically, Heracross is one of those Pokemon that are kept in check better by offensive Pokemon than defensive. Things like Nidoqueen and Weezing are pretty much your best bets of stopping Heracross, although Nidoqueen lacks reliable recovery and Weezing can't OHKO the bug and will sometimes lose in the long-run (if it burns Heracross Facade has a shot of 2HKOing it while Weezing struggles to do much back, even with Flamethrower). However, due to Heracross's low Speed, revenge killing it is easy. Even Dugtrio could manage to do it. I really don't know what the verdict of Heracross's tier status will be, but I for one know that it will not completely dominate UU as you are all making it out to be. The Swords Dancer with Flame Orb seems to be a massive problem for stall teams, as it can literally begin dishing out OHKOs with its boosted STABs alone.

 

[ABYAY]

If Hera truely hits UU and stays, then my Scyther friend will be completely outclassed seeing that not only can it absorb poison/burn easily and buff up at the same time, but it has superior attacking moves. It's ironic that Scyther can potentially check Heracross with a 4x resist to Close Combat and immunity to EQ, but otherwise, it's going to be hurting (ignore the 2x resist to Megahorn. It's not much to make a difference.) If it does come in on CC, it has to avoid Stealth Rock, which requires good game control. At that point, Hera will die unless it switches, giving you a useful advantage as you can either U-Turn out to trap a counter (U-Turn to Magneton/Duggy to trap their steel), and let you do a lot more damage later.

I know that's a lot for one rare situation. Honestly though, if Hera hits UU, Scyther best be NU seeing that it will like...never see the light again, rarer than what it does see. The only advantages Scyther has is speed, immunity to ground, and STAB U-Turn, which doesn't make up for Hera's monster attack, huge STABs, and neutrality to SR.

 

[wolf]

To get this thread active again (and we have discussed UU for a while), what do you all suspect on which tier the OU suspects belong? Especially Latios, Shaymin-S, and Garchomp. I will post my opinion on them in a few.

 

[Forci Stikane]

To get this thread active again (and we have discussed UU for a while), what do you all suspect on which tier the OU suspects belong? Especially Latios, Shaymin-S, and Garchomp. I will post my opinion on them in a few.

First of all, I apologize ahead of time for the natural amount of theorymon that will be in this post.

Latios: I would personally say to leave it as an Uber. In the case of Latias, there was the fact that its 130 Base stat was placed into a defense instead of offense. Latios, however, does not have that "benefit". While it might not have the same bulk as its sister, the combination of Latios' 130 Base Special Attack, 110 Base Speed, and very nice defensive stats along with its typing still leave it in a position to cause severe damage to teams, and it even has Dragon Dance along with physical STAB to make mixed sets perfectly viable with its Base 90 Attack. Six resistances, an immunity, reliable healing, and neutrality at best to entry hazards only add to that bulk, making a sweep even more difficult to stop. Even with the weaknesses to Ice Shard and Pursuit, its defenses still rival that of Garchomp, only without the 4x Ice weakness.


...Alright, so let me translate this into something that actually applies: as far as I know, the most that Latias can do is Wish-Pass and play direct bulky offense. While Latios cannot do the former, its offensive stats allow it to play the latter even better, and its access to Dragon Dance even allows it to do something that Latias cannot: attack from both sides of the spectrum. It has the stats, movepool, and typing to play as a better SpecsMence, specifically with its lack of weakness to Stealth Rock. While, yes, it has a dangerous weakness to Pursuit, I wonder if that is enough with its respectable 80/80 physical defense, only slightly worse than Latias and at least rivaling several of the current OU members. While Latias does not really have the movepool to meet the Defense characteristic, I argue that Latios has enough in both offense and defense to meet the Offense characteristic, and should thus be left where it is.

Shaymin-S: ...While I would personally enjoy being able to use this in OU battles, I am forced to agree with the original decision to move it into the Uber tier. Considering that the chance of Sand Veil hax was enough to move Garchomp into Ubers, the 60% flinch and 80% Special Defense drop from Shaymin Sky Forme's two main STAB attacks should technically be enough reason for this, even with its lower defenses and weakness to Stealth Rock. It also holds a Speed stat only outrun by five Pokemon outside of Ubers, three of which are uncommon in OU and one most often used as a suicide lead as of late, which aids in that 60% flinch chance due to Serene Grace. That Base 120 Special Attack is not exactly sub-par, either, and while Grass/Flying might not be a superior attacking combination as far as coverage, Serene Grace and coverage moves help to make up for that. So, I argue that the combination of Serene Grace and Shaymin Sky Forme's two main STAB moves being further boosted by said ability qualifies it for the Offense characteristic, and its flinching from STAB Air Slashes along with access to SubSeeding--and for that matter, its access to Secret Power and its 60% chance to paralyze over Wi-Fi likely does not hurt, either--can even form a basis for the Defense and Support characteristics.

Garchomp: This one is a bit more difficult to call. ...That is, until one realizes how well Garchomp pairs together with the now-popular Scizor, both resisting each other's weaknesses as well as Bullet Punch striking for Super-Effective damage on Mamoswine and Weavile, two Pokemon that would try to take Garchomp down with a STAB Ice Shard. Even without relying on "Garzor" or any other team support, Garchomp still has those high offensive and bulky defensive stats in order to sweep on its own. ...On the other hand, with the inclusion of Latias in OU and the introduction of Bullet Punch Scizor, it might not be quite as dangerous in the new metagame. I am all for testing it, although I fully expect it to remain Uber.

 

[ABYAY]

Latios: Even without Soul Dew, it is still a huge force to be reckoned with. The most powerful Draco Meteor would hit OU, and that move already does a truckload to most of OU, bar some steels and Bliss. It can't do much to steels without HP Fire (Draco Meteor has its drawbacks in this situation,) but really, only Meta, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Scizor can take its hits and retaliate in some way. Tyranitar can come in on HP Fire and any psychic moves being used, but that's it.

Shaymin-S: If it didn't have that Serene Grace, I'd probably say OU, but its luck is just too much. I'll say to keep it banished to ubers, seeing that it also pairs with Scizor in a way of stopping it's ice-type revenge killers.

Garchomp: I'd like to see Chomp back in OU; he's like a long lost friend waiting to get back into the action. His synergy with Scizor will skyrocket his use, and from the looks, awkward checks are probably hiding in the fog, waiting to be established to stop this physical duo. Also, the advent of Ice Punch on many more Pokemon also urge Chomp to return, as well as the Bullet Punch Scizor to down the weakened ones (HP Ice Scizor go!)

That's my input, but that's without battle knowledge of the daily metagame.

 

[wolf]

I am going to dedicate this post to Latios, and some to Shaymin-S. Of course, some of it may be shizz, because I am tired (nonetheless it isn't an excuse).

*image removed*

Latios

Lets look at its counters and checks; Blissey, Jirachi, Registeel, Tyranitar, Metagross, Snorlax, Bronzong, Empoleon, Special Defensive Skarmory, Special Defensive Scizor.

Blissey: Takes Draco Meteors easily, just has to watch out for Trick Specs.

Jirachi: Even variants without HP and SpD EVs take only around 55% from a Specs Draco Meteor. Access to Wish, Ice Punch, Thunder Wave/Body Slam, Iron Head helps Jirachi be one of the top Latios counters in the game outside of Blissey.

Registeel: Non-Special Defensive variants take 39.01% max, sporting also Ice Punch and Thunder Wave, help it take on Latios. RestTalk versions are even better at walling Latios.

Tyranitar: Special Defensive variants, takes around 45% from a Specs Draco Meteor, lets not forget SpA lowering factor. Pursuit kills Latios easily, but only has to watch out for Surf.

Metagross: Takes around the same amount no HP/Def Jirachi takes when he has max HP from a Specs Draco Meteor. Max HP/SpD (with Adamant) take only around 42%. Still a okay counter nonetheless, and can Pursuit or Meteor Mash Latios to its grave.

Snorlax: Basically takes the same as Metagross from Specs Draco Meteor, and has access to Pursuit, but only does a little. Metagross usually does the job better though.

Bronzong: Standard sets take 40% some, but special ones take 35% some (Specs DM). Gyro Ball deals a hefty amount to Latios due to his high Speed.

Empoleon: Takes about the same as Bronzong, and has Ice Beam, but has to watch out for Thunderbolt.

Special Defensive Skarmory: Just watch out for Thunderbolt...

Special Defensive Scizor: Takes 44% some if Scizor is Careful with max HP/SpD, it counters it I guess. But, having to run those EVs and Nature makes Scizor not as helpful as it once was as its Attack would have lowered in the process.

Heatran can check it as well, just needs to watch out for Surf. And, same with anything else, you can revenge kill with a good amount of Pokemon. Lets not forget that it does take a good amount of damage just switching into somethings like Heatran and Infernape.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

I find this hard to answer with Latios. >.< It does have to worry about Blissey (of course), Steels, Pursuit users, and revenge killers. Some Steels like Jirachi and Registeel can wall it to no end, Pursuit users can kill off Latios easily, and just with everything, a revenge killer can kill of Latios pretty easily (Heatran, Scizor, Mamoswine, Starmie, Gengar, etc). Some teams may have to sacrifice a Pokemon to defeat Latios, but most teams certainly have a Scarf user, or something faster than Latios like SpecsJolt, to kill it off with little effort (definitely if Latios's Speed has dropped). While it is a difficult Pokemon to counter, as with DD Mence, there are ways of defeating it. I still find it hard to answer this if it is Uber or not.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Yeah, Latios fits this with Dual Screen Memento... If only Game Freak never gave Latios Memento, Latios would not fit this as much. :(

*image removed*

Shaymin-S

I am getting tired, so I am just going to do the Uber characteristics.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Flinching and SpD lowering is definitely not a common battle condition, and Shaymin-S has to rely on luck to win the battle, and losing on the flinch rate could mean the entire battle. Lets not forgot a huge handful of Pokemon in OU can take down Shaymin-S quite easily if the flinch rate was not included. It also has a problem switching in sometimes outside of its Ground immunity.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Shaymin-S can stall the metagame greatly with the SubSeed set. But, it has problems with Stealth Rock and sandstorm, which are considered common battle conditions. It can stall, but not wall with huge amount of weaknesses, SR weakness, sandstorm weak, and standard defense stats. Lets not forget this part also; "-it is able to wall and stall-".

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Shaymin-S does not support barely any for its team members, it only weakens the foe, and may defeat a Pokemon, but that is certainly not support. Sometimes Shaymin-S is the one needing support.