FireRed hack: Pokémon Throwback v211001: Kanto, Your Way

[HungLikeATauros]

FBI just posted a fix for the TM deletion bug in the ASM thread.

 

[RichterSnipes]

I've seen and dismissed this hack several time now and finally decided to give it a look. I have to say that a feel a bit of shame now for not giving this a try earlier, the level of nostalgia is amazing. The only question I have is did you update the sprite to chaos rush/doll steak 64x64 sprites? If not, then why and would you possible consider adding a patch for updated sprites?

Other then that I really love this hack. FR is one of my favorite hacks already because it had enough nostalgia to tickle my fancy but this hack bumps everything up to 12 if you get that reference. GG.

I... didn't understand that reference.

The initial goal of Throwback was to let people play the game with the 8-bit music from the original games. The changes I added soon afterwards ended up expanding on that goal, placing a focus on creatures from the first two generations and implementing classic outfits for the main characters. That was the original meaning.

However, times have been changing. When I first started work on the hack, Pokémon Black and White were recently released. I first uploaded it when Black 2 and White 2 came out. And since then, further changes have occurred with the franchise, both officially and hack-wise. In the hacking realm, it's almost become standard for hacks to implement the Physical/Special split, as well as moves, Pokémon, and sprites from the more recent games. In fact, to many it's an expectation. Adding those things may provide a more up-to-date experience, but seeing it everywhere makes its inclusion feel less gratifying. I've implemented several augmentations to the base game via the Extras patch that are based on features from the modern games, but they don't change the core gameplay like changes that other hacks implement do. There is no wrong way of doing it provided the quality is there, but the tendency to do certain things in hacks reflects the mindsets of Pokémon hack players nowadays.

Things have changed in the official games, too. Especially if you look at changes since the 3rd Gen. Look at how they've changed since 2005:

• Pokémon is now a two-screen experience: gameplay on top, management on bottom.
• The games now take place in a 3D world. Not only that, but, just recently, they now take place entirely in 3D.
• Ken Sugimori's art style and direction has evolved greatly, now bearing less of a resemblance to Akira Toriyama's style and being something unique to himself. It's evident across all things: new Pokémon, all humans, and even a bit with older Pokémon.
• A new type - Fairy - exists, and Mega Evolutions introduce a new dynamic into battling.
• The meaning of Physical Attacks and Special Attacks has changed.
• Experience gains from battles is calculated entirely differently now. This is made more apparent with what Exp. Share has become.
• Battles and trade now occur on a global network, greatly expanding the notion of Pokémon being an inerconnected experience with other players.

All of the changes that the franchise has seen over the years, though, it's taken on a completely different meaning. I find that the hack now stands for everything that the older Pokémon games embody, capturing the series at a time just before it transformed in many different ways. It's a refined version of the Kanto adventure captured in a specific point in time. It's a time capsule of everything that the franchise was. A celebration of the series' past.

...

So, to answer your question as promptly as possible, I won't be implementing sprites from the modern games. :silly: I'm pretty sure patches exist to put those sprites in the game yourself, so including them as a Throwback option as the hack currently exists would feel a tad unnecessary. Plus it would conflict with the overall theme of the project.

That's nice to know! I think I'll still wait until after the Elite Four to use it, but it's nice to have options.

Really? Oh... I think I've figured it out.

Spoiler:

It's Entei, isn't it? After the Elite Four, I'm guessing.

That's really cool, but if you go to the summit on the first trip to the Sevii Islands, there's definitely nothing there, and it feels disappointing after going out of your way to get there. Maybe you could hide a Lava Cookie or something under where Moltres used to be? Also, is there any kind of hint in the game itself that the spoilered event happens?

You got it! The event guide details how it works. And there is an in-game hint that something will happen. The first place to look is a strategically-moved Rocket Grunt on Six Island.

I can see how having nothing on the summit at first may feel lacking. Getting to the top feels a little epic (Pokémon wise, keep your expectations in check!) because of how big the mountain is, as well as its surroundings and the fact that you have to utilize multiple HMs to get to the top. And for what? Nothing. Here's a way I see it, though: with how special that location is, clearly that empty space has to be used for something. When the event occurs that implies that something moved somewhere, it should be clear to anyone who's been there before that that's where it went. In a way, it values the intelligence of the gamer!

It's like the vacant lake area in The Legend of Zelda on the NES. When you first go there, nothing happens. It's not until you bring the flute there and play it that the lake drains and reveals the entrance to a late-game dungeon. Very similar, only not as vague.

 

[jToTheAvacola]

The less than 4 moves TM glitch has a solution.

Also, you may want to consider swapping out Mew's sprite for the emerald version. As of right now, you have the Mew copying the player and moving around, and since the Firered sprite isn't suited for movement it looks sloppy. The emerald sprite looks 100x better, can move, and doesn't look out of place with Firered graphics.

 

[RichterSnipes]

FBI just posted a fix for the TM deletion bug in the ASM thread.

The less than 4 moves TM glitch has a solution.

Also, you may want to consider swapping out Mew's sprite for the emerald version. As of right now, you have the Mew copying the player and moving around, and since the Firered sprite isn't suited for movement it looks sloppy. The emerald sprite looks 100x better, can move, and doesn't look out of place with Firered graphics.

I know, I know. It works, too! I'm working on removing instances in the game where it tells you - or implies - that TMs are one-time use.

I would like to improve the presentation of the Faraway Island stuff, but the disparities between the FR/LG and Emerald tilesets and feature sets kind of prevents me from doing so. I might do something about that in the future, but it'd involve adding things that would essentially be utilized only on a single map in the entire game. The problem with utilizing Mew's Emerald overworld sprite is that R/S/E have a completely different perspective from what the other 2D games use. Most 2D-rendered Pokémon games use sprites that are viewed from a top-down perspective. R/S/E, on the other hand, uses a tilted perspective that allows more "height" to be seen. Human OW sprites, for instance, have more of their actual body in view as opposed to mostly just a head. For that reason, I can't, in good conscience, use them. Other hackers might mix and match sprites between the two sets of games, but the clashing sprite styles really shows in them.

Also, you are aware that the Mew OW sprite from Emerald is larger than the Mewtwo OW sprite for FR/LG, right?

 

[jToTheAvacola]

Also, you are aware that the Mew OW sprite from Emerald is larger than the Mewtwo OW sprite for FR/LG, right?

What's your point? Size means nothing with the FR OWs. Is Mewtwo the same size as Kabuto? Is Mew's head 5 times the size of the legendary dogs' heads?

Besides, half of that height is its tail in the air.

 

[RichterSnipes]

What's your point? Size means nothing with the FR OWs. Is Mewtwo the same size as Kabuto? Is Mew's head 5 times the size of the legendary dogs' heads?

Besides, half of that height is its tail in the air.

You seem to be sticking it hard to the last point I made while ignoring everything else I said. I should have instead said that the Emerald Mew sprite was larger than most all other OW sprites in FR/LG, which serves as an odd contrast. That doesn't change the issue of art style consistency, though.

The reason why I had Mew mimic your moves was to give the impression that it acted kind of like how it did in Emerald. It might look goofy with sprites as small as these, but it's something Mew is actually capable of. Think of it as if it's strafing.

 

[technickal]

Do you know what the offsets for the help sign in Red/Leaf's room is? The documentation only mentions Pallet Town in general, where a ton of tutorial removal took place.


Also, could you fix/have you fixed the Roaming Roar Glitch? Look it up for details.

 

[Hobusu]

Also, could you fix/have you fixed the Roaming Roar Glitch? Look it up for details.

As I recall, he changed their movesets to prevent them knowing Roar when you find them. But that does remind me... I don't know if he's fixed the Roaming IV glitch. I know it is easily fixable, but I don't remember seeing it mentioned anywhere...

 

[HungLikeATauros]

But that does remind me... I don't know if he's fixed the Roaming IV glitch. I know it is easily fixable, but I don't remember seeing it mentioned anywhere...

This is from the first post:

The Pokédex species glitch and roaming legendary IV glitch are now fixed.

 

[RichterSnipes]

VERSION 3.9.1 RELEASE

I popped up a quick release for everyone to fix a few of the issues with the game and hack. The TM usage function, in particular, received immediate attention. Thanks goes to FBI agent for that fix!

Changelog:

Spoiler:

Extras:

• Fixed the TM usage issue when teaching a Pokémon a TM with less than four known moves.
• Removed all instances in which the game states or implies that TMs are one-time use.
• Fixed some item/TM obtained fanfares that were still playing the Level Up jingle.
• Fixed the Infinite Nugget Glitch at Nugget Bridge.

Decapitalization:

• Removed a few stray instances of accidentally-capitalized terms. This mostly applies to the whole Throwback patch, as the majority of caps issues involved new scripts not part of the vanilla game.

Before my responses to some messages, I would like to make known my new initiative with the hack. Unsurprisingly, there are people who've wanted only specific parts of the Extras patch - or other patches, for that matter - rather than the entire thing. Well, I'm now doing something about that. I am now creating separate patches for each and every feature that Throwback adds to FireRed/LeafGreen. Tree cutting will have its own patch, level up/item obtained fanfares will have its own patch, the title screen will have its own patch, etc.

This does not mean that the Extras patch, or any other patch as they are, will be going away. I'll just now have piecemeal patches added to make as many fine customizations as possible. I've been bad about preserving my work, so I'm having to recreate each aspect of the hack one step at a time. I have no clue when I'll have every individual patch complete. All I know is that it'll take awhile. I also don't know how I'll supply them to everyone. I don't think I'd be alone in saying that having users patch each one individually would be both arduous and annoying. Ideally I'd have some sort of mechanism to streamline that process, but I don't want to make any promises I can't keep... especially given my lack of programming skills.

Anyways, that's the current state of affairs with Throwback. I hope you all like the update!

************************************************

Do you know what the offsets for the help sign in Red/Leaf's room is? The documentation only mentions Pallet Town in general, where a ton of tutorial removal took place.

The offsets for the help sign in your room are 0x168CDB for FireRed (US v1.0) and 0x168CB7 for LeafGreen (US v1.0). Both scripts are still in the game, so repointing back to them will work.

Also, could you fix/have you fixed the Roaming Roar Glitch? Look it up for details.

As I recall, he changed their movesets to prevent them knowing Roar when you find them.

I don't think a publicly-available fix for the Roaming Roar Glitch has been uploaded. I probably wouldn't know what to do about it directly, either. Hobusu's right: I shifted Entei's and Raikou's known moves so they don't know Roar at the level you encounter them at. You can still teach them it via the general move tutor, though. It's a workaround, so be aware if you decide to include any other roaming Pokés that know Roar or Whirlwind at the time of encounter.

 

[technickal]

Sorry for all the questions, but do you have a patch/method to enable real-time clock/Espeon/Umbreon in LeafGreen?

 

[RichterSnipes]

Sorry for all the questions, but do you have a patch/method to enable real-time clock/Espeon/Umbreon in LeafGreen?

I'm sorry, but I don't. The issue would be porting the RTC itself to LeafGreen. I had to tinker with this version of it a little bit for it to work in FireRed as it is.

If you're looking to make ambitious, or even slightly involved, additions to your hack, you really would be better off just sticking with FireRed.

 

[Hobusu]

This is from the first post:

Oops... I must have missed that. Oh well, I had guessed he'd done it by now. I just wasn't sure. Thanks for letting me know!

 

[Ocular Stratus]

Would you care if I tweaked your hack? I know we discussed once how you wanted to keep things pure and I have been trying to practice working with hacks and scripts and I would love to try and modernize this one just a pinch. I wouldn't distribute it publicly, nor would I take credit for it to anyone, at any time. I would just really love to:

• Bring PSS
• Fairy
• Updated Repel System
• Overworld Poison Update
• Add a few pokemon
• tweak starters

etc.
I don't know. I just have some Ideas and I really like this hack already. I would love to personalize it for myself with your permission.

 

[RichterSnipes]

Would you care if I tweaked your hack? I know we discussed once how you wanted to keep things pure and I have been trying to practice working with hacks and scripts and I would love to try and modernize this one just a pinch. I wouldn't distribute it publicly, nor would I take credit for it to anyone, at any time. I would just really love to:

• Bring PSS
• Fairy
• Updated Repel System
• Overworld Poison Update
• Add a few pokemon
• tweak starters

etc.
I don't know. I just have some Ideas and I really like this hack already. I would love to personalize it for myself with your permission.

As per the OP (as it currently stands), the middle two things you mentioned are actually in Throwback.

You're free to alter the hack however you like for your personal use. Always have been, always will be.

 

[technickal]

Would you care if I tweaked your hack? I know we discussed once how you wanted to keep things pure and I have been trying to practice working with hacks and scripts and I would love to try and modernize this one just a pinch. I wouldn't distribute it publicly, nor would I take credit for it to anyone, at any time. I would just really love to:

• Bring PSS
• Fairy
• Updated Repel System
• Overworld Poison Update
• Add a few pokemon
• tweak starters

etc.
I don't know. I just have some Ideas and I really like this hack already. I would love to personalize it for myself with your permission.

That sounds cool. I might use your modified version as a ROMbase for my hack.


Here's a second ROMbase for PSS: https://www.pokecommunity.com/posts/6265988/

 

[RichterSnipes]

I didn't notice your post earlier, so I'll respond to it separately right now:

I have a few suggestions for the Extras patch to make it up to speed with modern generations while not changing the core gameplay:
-Remove poison in the overworld altogether. If you think that makes the game too easy you could make it a separate patch.

I don't know if this has ever been implemented in a ROM hack before, or if a means to do this exists. I'll consider switching to it if such a method exists.

-Also, I think you should update Ghost/Steel and Dark/Steel type effectiveness to be more like the sixth generation.

You do realizes that this does, in fact, change the core gameplay, don't you?

-Remove the overwrite warning for every time you save except over a completely different file would also be a nice touch.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. The extra prompt was included as a semi-failstate so people wouldn't save over earlier progress. It wouldn't be fun for someone else to get ahold of your game, accidentally screw things up in it, and save over it without at least being told that it would overwrite previous progress. You have to remember that Pokémon games only have one save file (and various backup files in case of errors).

Now, if there was a way to implement more than one save file...

-The weird "whited out" phrase when you run out of PKMN should be "blacked out" just like in Gen I and Gen IV+.

The phrase "blacked out" takes up more space than "whited out." I'd get to changing it, but I really don't feel like finding the pointer for the knocked out text routine and placing the text elsewhere in the ROM just for a simple terminology change. Still, it's something that will more than likely end up in the hack at one point or another.

-The shop music that debuted in R/S/E; even HG/SS had it! For GB Player, you could use the HG/SS GB Sounds theme.

This is one change I'll firmly stand against. The first two generations of games didn't have a dedicated mart theme. Neither do the current games, seeing as they combine their marts with their Pokémon Centers. In fact, that actually makes their current state more accurate to the current games. Even if I did implement the theme, I'd have to make a FR/LG mix for it. Plus the 8-Bit version in HG/SS is not only thematically representative of the music in the 2nd Gen as opposed to the 1st Gen, it also sounds awful like almost all of the rest of the 8-Bit music in the remakes. I'd have to "fix" the tune in order for it to sound faithful to the sounds of the GB games.

-Modern names for items, moves, and trainers. "ITEMFINDER" -> "DOWSING MCHN"; "COOLTRAINER" -> "ACE TRAINER"; "CUE BALL" -> "ROUGHNECK"; "CELADON MANSION" -> "CELADON CONDOMINIUMS" and "FAINT ATTACK" -> "FEINT ATTACK".

A cheeky response for me would be "Look at the title of the hack." My serious one is "They're just names of insignificant elements of the game. It doesn't affect much of anything to keep them as they are." Maybe some of these things will get implemented one day or another, but I'm not looking to overhaul every last term to be updated to what the most recent games have them as.

-Deoxys battle theme is currently not affected by GB Player. Although there isn't an official 8-bit version since Deoxys debuted in Generation III, there are several fan-made 8-bit remixes that could be put in for Deoxys's battle. This one would be good: https://youtu.be/o3mtUqgk2ic

Not happening. I'm not going to make Deoxys available in my hack through standard means. There's no reason to make an 8-Bit version of a piece of music that won't be heard in normal play. If someone engages the battle with it via cheating/hacking methods, it'll be an unsupported method in Throwback.

Just so you know, these are just suggestions, and you don't have to put them in. I'm not trying to sound demanding. But if you don't like these ideas, do you know how I could do them myself?

The first idea might not have been done before in a hack, so that would require ASM knowledge and a deep understanding of the relevant data in the ROM. Most of the other changes are cosmetic or can be changed with existing tools.

 

[technickal]

Now I feel dumb for even bringing up those ideas. Sorry.


...May I ask what did you use to edit the title screen for FireRed's "Catch 'Em All" patch? And is it possible to edit the LeafGreen title screen at this time?

 

[Ocular Stratus]

Now I feel dumb for even bringing up those ideas. Sorry.


...May I ask what did you use to edit the title screen for FireRed's "Catch 'Em All" patch? And is it possible to edit the LeafGreen title screen at this time?

I added P/S/S already through a less then conventional means

 

[technickal]

I added P/S/S already through a less then conventional means

Could you please make a version of your patch that includes just the new features and not Throwback?
Also, what do you mean by "tweaking starters"? Will it still be Lv. 5 Bulbasaur/Charmander/Squirtle?