Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

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Balancing the metagame is what we are trying to do. Not make battling "fun".

If you want "fun", you would have to find out how to deal with Wobbuffet in order to experience the "fun" from winning and/or switching out.

If its not broken, it should be in OU. It should not be moved to Ubers because of people whining about how it "sucks the fun" out of every match. The metagame is not necessarily about fun.

The people on Shoddy not using it cannot be immediately termed under "respect for other users", because you do not have proof that they do it out of respect or because Wobbuffet just plain sucks.

If Wobbuffet was so "all powerful" and supposedly belonged in Ubers, you would think it would be used more. Without usage statistics to prove overcentralisation or a surge in usage, you cannot accurately determine whether a pokemon should be banished to Ubers.

Basically I'm reiterating my point:

Aquillae said:
If Wobb gives them a free turn to set up, what are they going to do when their set-up sweepers are walled easily?
Click to expand...

If the people on Shoddy see it as an Uber, wouldn't they start using it and prove that it is? The most I can see is that Wobbuffet is #43 on weighted and #45 on unweighted for April, and the choices of pokemon have not changed much, showing no proof of overcentralisation.

I do not see any major substantiation for why Wobbuffet should be Uber, besides playing theorymon (not practical) and several arguments without sufficient substantiation. I would like to see some actual points against Wobbuffet in Standard.

The criteria for Ubers is:

  • Overcentralisation
Thats all really.
 
Aquillae said:
Balancing the metagame is what we are trying to do. Not make battling "fun".

If you want "fun", you would have to find out how to deal with Wobbuffet in order to experience the "fun" from winning and/or switching out.
Get off it.
If its not broken, it should be in OU. It should not be moved to Ubers because of people whining about how it "sucks the fun" out of every match. The metagame is not necessarily about fun.
That's the whole reason, because we feel it broken.
The people on Shoddy not using it cannot be immediately termed under "respect for other users", because you do not have proof that they do it out of respect or because Wobbuffet just plain sucks.
And you don't have much proof that they aren't using it because they feel it just out of respect.
If Wobbuffet was so "all powerful" and supposedly belonged in Ubers, you would think it would be used more. Without usage statistics to prove overcentralisation or a surge in usage, you cannot accurately determine whether a pokemon should be banished to Ubers.
Or, they would avoid using it, as they may see ti as cheap as F.E.A.R. Rattata. Your statistics doesn't accurately prove the reasoning behind this at all. The people that does use it may use it because they can finally use this broken poke, and may feel that it opens up more free wins. You'll need more research in order to prove that case.
Basically I'm reiterating my point:



If the people on Shoddy see it as an Uber, wouldn't they start using it and prove that it is? The most I can see is that Wobbuffet is #43 on weighted and #45 on unweighted for April, and the choices of pokemon have not changed much, showing no proof of overcentralisation.
I don't see that happening. If they aren't using it out of respect, they see it as broken as well. The reason that the choices haven't changed much is because there is nothing that can be changed to beat it.
I do not see any major substantiation for why Wobbuffet should be Uber, besides playing theorymon (not practical) and several arguments without sufficient substantiation. I would like to see some actual points against Wobbuffet in Standard.
Then have another look at the thread. Dark Azelf, ABYAY, etc. & I have given very good points.
The criteria for Ubers is:

  • Overcentralisation
Thats all really.
Click to expand...

You're argument against set-up sweepers made no sense. The way you put it, you make set up sweepers sound like they are easily walled. The best way to stop a set up sweeper is to prevent it from setting up. That becomes nigh impossible with Wobbo. Setting up a Chomp is extremely dangerous, as it is near impossible too stop when on it's rampage-or Outrage. SD Outrage, to be specific.
 
Dudes you are so right. Wobby isn't used much, yeah, but when it is used, its almost unstoppable, unless you have a hacked wobby that knows a move like Crunch,Dark Pulse, X-scissor, Shadow Claw or Shadow Ball etc. It can harm you twice as badly as you harm it, or just switch out, and if it'll cause you trouble, then you're doomed thanks to its abililty. Plus, it could let you defeat it but first destiny bond you and take out something like a Garchomp, Dragonite, T-tar, Salamence or another really strong poke and cripple your team, as, however much anyone denies it, we all have a strongest pokemon in our team, that could be took out by Wobby and ruin our battle strategy, making us easily defeated.
 
Question... Keep in mind I've only read the first page of the thread... Why is Garchomp Uber? T-Tar has better stats and a better movepool, it's just slower. Dragonite is the same way. The only thing I see going for Garchomp is speed and an immunity to electric.
 
shadoweagle89 said:
Question... Keep in mind I've only read the first page of the thread... Why is Garchomp Uber? T-Tar has better stats and a better movepool, it's just slower. Dragonite is the same way. The only thing I see going for Garchomp is speed and an immunity to electric.
Click to expand...

i asked the same thing, but apparently it is broken, thats the uber tier for this site, as i still check serebii and other sites disagree, but ill agree with this one. it does cause a lot of problems for people after SD
 
shadoweagle89 said:
Question... Keep in mind I've only read the first page of the thread... Why is Garchomp Uber? T-Tar has better stats and a better movepool, it's just slower. Dragonite is the same way. The only thing I see going for Garchomp is speed and an immunity to electric.
Click to expand...

https://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=131731


Read that.


Tar is shut down by Bulky ground types, Fighters etc, garchomp has no counter.

Dragonite is weak to SR. And as you said chomp has less weaks than it.
 
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Okay, since you can't prove the players are not using Wobbuffet out of respect, you can't prove anything BUT Wobbuffet isn't used much, and it does not overcentralise the game.

Garchomp is easily countered/revenge killed when Outraging, and it has good counters in Cresselia and Bronzong.

The reasons why the statistics haven't changed:

  • They don't change their team because they don't care about Wobbuffet
  • Players already can deal with Wobbuffet using their standard teams
So either one of those, and since #1 can't be proven using statistics gathered, #2 is the next best option to assume.

The way you show set-up sweepers is as if they tear through whole teams easily and if one gets a set-up you're doomed. That is assuming that the opponent's team actually doesn't have walls at all that can stop a sweep.

Name me one set-up sweeper that can't be stopped and revenge killed, then I'll consider your argument.
 
Aquillae said:
Okay, since you can't prove the players are not using Wobbuffet out of respect, you can't prove anything BUT Wobbuffet isn't used much, and it does not overcentralise the game.

Garchomp is easily countered/revenge killed when Outraging, and it has good counters in Cresselia and Bronzong.

The reasons why the statistics haven't changed:

  • They don't change their team because they don't care about Wobbuffet
  • Players already can deal with Wobbuffet using their standard teams
Errr.....No I don't think so. They consider wobbuffet broken and don't use it. Simple as that.

If wobbuffet was easy to handle, do you really think that we would be arguing against this.
So either one of those, and since #1 can't be proven using statistics gathered, #2 is the next best option to assume.

The way you show set-up sweepers is as if they tear through whole teams easily and if one gets a set-up you're doomed. That is assuming that the opponent's team actually doesn't have walls at all that can stop a sweep.

Name me one set-up sweeper that can't be stopped and revenge killed, then I'll consider your argument.
Click to expand...


Okay now how to explain to a person like you.

Cresselia is not a counter for garchomp! SD lifeorb outrage too much to handle.
Bronzong? Nah, what can it hit back with?
Heck, even weavile has trouble revenge killing with ice shard in sandstorm, 80% accuracy . If that misses, game over most likely.

Right.... Bellyzard, how do you stop that after it gets a sub in? Oh please do tell me? I really want to know? :P Meh lets say stealth rock is up, they bellydrum instead and you switch out.

Btw, not many people use Suicune's. ;)

Actually I want to know how'd you kill Chomp in sandstorm without any risk? There's so many different types. So yeah, you have to figure it out first. And don't say chomp is uber, incase I'm mistaken, you've said chomp is easily countered. Outraging or not, it's still hard to counter.
 
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Prince, a donphan with roar, ice shard, earthquake, and rapid spin can handle garchomps very well.
 
Big Lennys said:
Prince, a donphan with roar, ice shard, earthquake, and rapid spin can handle garchomps very well.
Click to expand...

Oh thankyou for pointing that out. >>

I wonder why garchomp was sent to ubers, if donphan can wall it so well. I thought it didn't have any true counters. :P
 
Big Lennys said:
Prince, a donphan with roar, ice shard, earthquake, and rapid spin can handle garchomps very well.
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It can't switch in to Outrage, it needs to be Choiced Banded in order to even take out Garchomp. Not only is that overcentralization, it's unlikey.

Maybe you should try reading the REST of the posts against Garchomp, before you try countering it, in order to see if it has been spoken about.
 
Bronzong has Gyro Ball, Cress can still take SD LO Outrage and KO back with IB, if its LO means no Yache.
Sand Veil is something else entirely. I do not wish to let Garchomp discussion seep into a Wobby discussion.

Bellyzard can be revenge killed, and the SR switching in version gets killed by SS/Hail. Simply break the sub first time and Charizard can't carry out a sweep effectively. Not to mention Bellyzard is only one time, it cannot work again.

Suicune is #41 and upper BL, this month it moved up into the boundaries of OU (though not officially put in it due to the updating of the list every three months).

Aaand.. Donphan can't wall it well, Outrage still takes a chunk out of it.
 
Aquillae said:
Bronzong has Gyro Ball, Cress can still take SD LO Outrage and KO back with IB, if its LO means no Yache.
Sand Veil is something else entirely. I do not wish to let Garchomp discussion seep into a Wobby discussion.

Bellyzard can be revenge killed, and the SR switching in version gets killed by SS/Hail. Simply break the sub first time and Charizard can't carry out a sweep effectively. Not to mention Bellyzard is only one time, it cannot work again.
True, But he will pull the combo off BEFORE you break the sub. He won't bother switching, so there goes SR. Not saying it's impossible to beat, of course, but it sets up so easily with Encore support.
Suicune is #41 and upper BL, this month it moved up into the boundaries of OU (though not officially put in it due to the updating of the list every three months).
I don't care much for the BL tier. It's a massive waste of time. Just call them OU & stop wasting time. Oh, not you, I meant Smogon in general. Seriously, if it's too good for UU, just call it OU. I understand that it isn't *quite* as good as OU, but still, just call it OU and stop making new tiers for me to remember.
Aaand.. Donphan can't wall it well, Outrage still takes a chunk out of it.
Click to expand...

It might have too, they corelate well, at least for this point.

With an SD, Cressy takes an amazing amount of pain switching in. It can't survive the next hit. I don't think Bronzong's Gyro Ball can cause a KO, and it can't survive two hits either, meaning it can't survive to switch in. And Ice Beam from Cressy won't be an OHKO, even if it pulls it off.

This is just in point that Wobby makes that easier to set up. Also, you cannot "assume" the reasonings behind why Wobby isn't used much. They could simply see it as cheap, as evident when you said they flamed you or forfeited in your face. Or, it could be that they are "prepared", but I don't seee much in being prepared. We need more reasoning for that.
 
If you don't mind a rant here as my returning post...

It's obvious you can't prove Wobbuffet uber. The arguing has gone nowhere and valid points for it being moved to the OU tier have been presented. I haven't seen anything against Wobby except "ZOMG 1tz bR0k3n!!111!!!" If you have something valid to share about Wobbuffet, I'd like to hear it now. It doesn't overcentralize the metagame, luck is a non-issue, and there are several other pokemon with no counters. There is no way you can say without a bias that Wobbuffet is uber given that information.

As for Garchomp, I think we need to reconsider that too. Every version of Garchomp has counters. SDchomp loses to bulky waters and Cresselia (among a few other pokemon), and Chain Chomp...lol. Same things. CBchomp doesn't really have a counter, but neither do a lot of pokemon and actually beating CBchomp is not excruciatingly difficult. Those SD LO Outrages you all rave about so often are perfect bait for something like Empoleon to come in and KO or for Skarmory to Spikes the field and Roar it away, while it takes damage from Spikes coming in. I think you could make the case that Garchomp is uber (definitely more than with Wobbuffet), but I think we should REALLY consider reversing this decision.

EDIT: sims, while it is two Cress cannot survive two SD hits, it won't have to if you play it right (which is simple to do). You switch in while it boosts up with SD, survive one hit, and Ice Beam it to its grave.
 
Anti-Pop said:
If you don't mind a rant here as my returning post...

It's obvious you can't prove Wobbuffet uber. The arguing has gone nowhere and valid points for it being moved to the OU tier have been presented. I haven't seen anything against Wobby except "ZOMG 1tz bR0k3n!!111!!!" If you have something valid to share about Wobbuffet, I'd like to hear it now. It doesn't overcentralize the metagame, luck is a non-issue, and there are several other pokemon with no counters. There is no way you can say without a bias that Wobbuffet is uber given that information.

As for Garchomp, I think we need to reconsider that too. Every version of Garchomp has counters. SDchomp loses to bulky waters and Cresselia (among a few other pokemon), and Chain Chomp...lol. Same things. CBchomp doesn't really have a counter, but neither do a lot of pokemon and actually beating CBchomp is not excruciatingly difficult. Those SD LO Outrages you all rave about so often are perfect bait for something like Empoleon to come in and KO or for Skarmory to Spikes the field and Roar it away, while it takes damage from Spikes coming in. I think you could make the case that Garchomp is uber (definitely more than with Wobbuffet), but I think we should REALLY consider reversing this decision.

EDIT: sims, while it is two Cress cannot survive two SD hits, it won't have to if you play it right (which is simple to do). You switch in while it boosts up with SD, survive one hit, and Ice Beam it to its grave.
Click to expand...



The Swords Dance Outrage Garchomp 2hko's max hp / max def skarmory if it comes in on SR. So i really dont think its going to spike everything nor do i think Empoleon will come in.
 
Anti-Pop said:
If you don't mind a rant here as my returning post...

It's obvious you can't prove Wobbuffet uber. The arguing has gone nowhere and valid points for it being moved to the OU tier have been presented. I haven't seen anything against Wobby except "ZOMG 1tz bR0k3n!!111!!!" If you have something valid to share about Wobbuffet, I'd like to hear it now. It doesn't overcentralize the metagame, luck is a non-issue, and there are several other pokemon with no counters. There is no way you can say without a bias that Wobbuffet is uber given that information.

As for Garchomp, I think we need to reconsider that too. Every version of Garchomp has counters. SDchomp loses to bulky waters and Cresselia (among a few other pokemon), and Chain Chomp...lol. Same things. CBchomp doesn't really have a counter, but neither do a lot of pokemon and actually beating CBchomp is not excruciatingly difficult. Those SD LO Outrages you all rave about so often are perfect bait for something like Empoleon to come in and KO or for Skarmory to Spikes the field and Roar it away, while it takes damage from Spikes coming in. I think you could make the case that Garchomp is uber (definitely more than with Wobbuffet), but I think we should REALLY consider reversing this decision.

EDIT: sims, while it is two Cress cannot survive two SD hits, it won't have to if you play it right (which is simple to do). You switch in while it boosts up with SD, survive one hit, and Ice Beam it to its grave.
Click to expand...

Garchomp

To be honest, I think other site's criticism sounds like it's getting to you. The fact that Garchomp can 2HKO a Lugia after a SD shows something. I know it may not prove that it's broken in OU, but the fact that it can take out the best wall in Ubers is something to be looked at.

Also, what you just said in the last post:
perfect bait for something like Empoleon to come in
Click to expand...
which is only proving the fact that you would have to bring a Pokemon to specifically counter the Garchomp, because I highly doubt many People carry a Steel type that can OHKO Garchomp. As a matter of fact, I believe that Empoleon is about the only one that can come in and safely OHKO it, unless of course you CB a Gliscor and come in on a SD or Earthquake.

Wobb

If we aren't looking at Wobb's ability, then of course he would be OU, but the fact that he can come in and keep a Pokemon trapped just makes the thing look Uber. Why "Broken" doesn't really matter with this Pokemon is the fact that you aren't able to name Pokemon that can counter it, because YOU CAN'T SWITCH THEM IN. Whatever you have out has to combat the thing, and if the person is skilled, they'll bring it out at the Perfect time, and even possibly Wish pass and take something else out afterwards.

Well, that's my opinion on the matter, I guess I might have made a few incorrect comment, but if I did, it's still my opinion. It should be in Ubers.
 
None of these calculations make ANY sense when you look at it from a common sense standpoint to be perfectly honest. Also, SDchomp is so easily revenge killed and there are walls that counter it. But to reiterate, I don't trust metalkid or any other damage calculator ever since a max Atk/Adamant SD Lucario did 130% to Hippowdon on a critical hit with close Combat...which would translate to 65% without the ch...so much for 83% minimum. I'm sorry, but I just don't trust them...at all.

Anyways, I'm honestly extremely sick and tired of hearing how you can't switch out from Wobbuffet. It's totally irrelevant since half the metagame can beat it anyways. Once it presents itself, Wobbuffet is never a problem. Just make smart switches (again, not difficult) and know how to beat it. There are other pokemon with no counters in the OU game with more destructive power than Wobby could dream of (and I'm not talking about sweeping, I mean the overall damage they can do).

Also, I rarely visit other sites besides the occasional lurk on Smogon or post on pe2k, neither of which ever talk about us from what I look at. It isn't another site's criticism of our site - it's MINE.

Also, I would really like to see these tests you ran. Quite frankly, I think a test on PC would be totally bogus as it's clear most of the site is in favor of both pokemon being uber, and I doubt you would be motivated to change your mind. I think we should leave it to Smogon or even (shudder) Shoddy.

And for the record, Lugia relies a lot on Reflect to take its hits. Statistically speaking, it's about equal with our friend Cresselia in overall defense...so I don't really see the big deal. Without Reflect, Lugia isn't the best wall in ubers...I don't think it is even with Reflect, but that's another topic.

I might sound bitter here, but I think we should let Smogon and Shoddy run their tests. I'm 60/40 with Garchomp now (in favor of it being in OUs), but I don't think strongly enough about it to really argue with you. I'd like to hear what Beachy and Aquillae have to say. I think we're jumping the gun WAY too quickly on Garchomp. I'm not going to wave support in either direction just yet, but I guarentee Garchomp isn't as uber as you think...even if it ends up being proven uber, I think exaggerations are going on everywhere.

Basically, I'm going to bow out of the Garchomp argument for now. Cresselia and bulky waters still counter SDchomp though...for the record.

Anyways, I feel MUCH more strongly about Wobbuffet, who we pretty much have proven OU. Other pokemon have trapping abilities, and while none are as great as Wobbuffet's, Wobbuffet is easy to deal with.

I reiterate, I am backing out of the Garchomp argument, but there is NO WAY you can say Wobbuffet is uber.

BTW, Empoleon was just an example. Skarmory can stall it out and kill it with LO recoil with Roost and Cresselia and bulky waters.

With Garchomp, I think you guys have a good argument for it going to ubers. With Wobbuffet, you really don't. I support Garchomp debate to continue, but I really think we should concede Wobbuffet's OU status. All three criteria for being uber don't apply to Wobbuffet (and while it has no counters, beating it is easy. Wave the red flag all you want, but other OUs also have no counters).

EDIT: Just so you all know, I'm not really mad at anybody or anything, even if it might have sounded that way. I certainly AM mad about certain biases, but I tried to leave that out of the post as much as possible.
 
Although I'm pretty against Wobby being in OU, I can say this: To be honest, I really don't care where it's placed. It's just part of a game, and the game takes us wherever it wants to.

The thing with Wobby is that it's a major sponge killer. Blissey without Toxic WILL almost ALWAYS lose to Wobbuffet regardless, going with a few reasons:

1. If you can Encore its Aromatherapy and stay in, you can ruin its clericing skills.
2. If you Encore Thunder Wave, then you can swap to Electivire for a free Motor Drive. Try that combo Wobby users.
3. Encore Seismic Toss, then just counter away. One will fall O_o...hopefully.

Encore on it is pretty extreme, and wouldn't be everything it is without it. You can't ban a move, because that's just...not supposed to happen. It's a pokemon, and it's usable, so it has drawbacks. First and foremost, statusing it with Toxic or Burn helps. Secondly, outpredicting the upcoming move will help if it tries Encore. Imagine Encoring Wobbuffet yourself (although only a few effective pokemon get that.) Lastly, purely powerful moves, combined with residual damage will cause its downfall.

It'll most commonly win against sponges like Forretress and Blissey, but MixMence stands a good shot if it runs Crunch. Draco Meteor the first turn. then Crunch the second turn if it dare stays in, but again, Encore will mess you up. Basically, anything with strong SE mixed attacks can really pound it.

I can't get into heated arguments very well, but I can hopefully provide some bits of info. Oh yeah...about Garchomp, that's where I'm solely neutral. If it comes to OU, I'll probably have something for it. If not, then...I won't have to worry about it.
 
Anyone that has been on Shoddy in the past 5 minutes knows my opinion about Wobba.

What I really want to work on is the NU list, so anyone that's interested in helping me get that up, send a PM my way, I'll try to find a CBox somewhere that we can work on that in.
 
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