Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[sims796]

I'm sorry Dark_Azelf but we both know that Garchomp doesn't over centralize the metagame. We all can agree that luck is on its side, but over centralize it does not and it never will.

Also, if it yas Yache Berry, that means it doesn't have Life Orb to boost that ever-famous Outrage attack it has.

EDIT: Skarmory is a great initial switch. You can stop CB and Scarf Outrages right off the bat and you'll know if it's SDchomp or not. You can switch to a bulky water than can lkaugh off firer Blast or fire Fang and Ice Beam it. While skarmory doesn't counter Garchomp, it's a great initial switch since none of Garchomp's attacks 1HKO and almost all don't 2HKO.So they must lose nearly half their health switching in to "block' the move? Because none of them can switch in without feeling immense pain. As I said, it really isn't hard to get the SD boost, and none of thier Ice Beam's can even KO it. Meaning they can be ballsy amd ttake the beam, to counter with the second Outrage.

Garchomp isn't as impossible to counter as you think either, considering SDchomp is walled by sturdy bulky waters and Cresselia. That isn't going to change. Things like Skarmory and Bronzong can also absorb any hit and switch if needed (basically if Fire Fang or blast is used or is going to be used). IMO the biggest thing against Garchomp is Sand Veil. Otherwise, I think it would be hands-down OU. when you miss, you lose. Otherwise, beating Garchomp isn't so hard.

Just thought I'd point that out.

I have to disagree with this, especially considering how much you made points countering these things exactly.

First off, it really isn't hard to get in a quick SD. Especially when forcing a switch, since it grants such a high boost. Afterward, absolutley nothing can safely switch in. Since he 2HKO's all of his counters, you must rely on something faster to revenge kill.

 

[Dark Azelf]

I'm sorry Dark_Azelf but we both know that Garchomp doesn't over centralize the metagame. We all can agree that luck is on its side, but over centralize it does not and it never will.

Also, if it yas Yache Berry, that means it doesn't have Life Orb to boost that ever-famous Outrage attack it has.

EDIT: Skarmory is a great initial switch. You can stop CB and Scarf Outrages right off the bat and you'll know if it's SDchomp or not. You can switch to a bulky water than can lkaugh off firer Blast or fire Fang and Ice Beam it. While skarmory doesn't counter Garchomp, it's a great initial switch since none of Garchomp's attacks 1HKO and almost all don't 2HKO.

Garchomp isn't as impossible to counter as you think either, considering SDchomp is walled by sturdy bulky waters and Cresselia. That isn't going to change. Things like Skarmory and Bronzong can also absorb any hit and switch if needed (basically if Fire Fang or blast is used or is going to be used). IMO the biggest thing against Garchomp is Sand Veil. Otherwise, I think it would be hands-down OU. when you miss, you lose. Otherwise, beating Garchomp isn't so hard.

Just thought I'd point that out.

I never said it Over centralized the metagame Anti, i said Luck and No counters arguments applies to Chomp.


Cressy does not do so much of a good job walling SD Outrage Life Orb Chomp. =/.



252 / 148 Def Bold Cressy. It does like 98% to it after a SD Outrage and It also does 53% to Skarm with a SD Fire Fang.




Other pokemon with accuracy modifiers are walled helplessly,


Snow Cloak : Mamoswine is walled by Bronzong, Skarmory and other bulky waters e.g Slowbro.etc.

Glaceon and Frosslass, special walls and even Hariyama =/ AND steels.


Sandveil : Cacturne, as said, is tricky thanks to sub seed sets, still its slow and isnt getting past PHazers. Dugtrio lol. Gliscor, still isnt sweeping teams and neither is Sandslash.


All the above pokemon with accuracy modifying abilities can be walled, Chomp however cant.


"Having no counters" whilst it still is not THE most important factor for being Uber, its one of the top 3 reasons. SO its still accounted for.



That being : - Luck, Over centralization and indeed no counters.

 

[Anti]

You said Garchomp meets all three criteria, which is saying it over centralizes the metagame as it is one of the criteria :P

Also, if Garchomop magically has a Yache Berry now, Skarmory can laugh at Outrage a lot easier (and if it doesn't Outrage, Cresselia is going to wall it). Now your steel can come in and Roar out Garchomp and even damage it.

 

[Dark Azelf]

You said Garchomp meets all three criteria, which is saying it over centralizes the metagame as it is one of the criteria :P

Also, if Garchomop magically has a Yache Berry now, Skarmory can laugh at Outrage a lot easier (and if it doesn't Outrage, Cresselia is going to wall it). Now your steel can come in and Roar out Garchomp and even damage it.

Yache Berry ? What ? I meant frikkin Life Orb, stupid typo.


Well, i meant, yes, it does over centralize the metagame in some certain aspects(Something to take Outrages, namely steels). The other two apply more. Luck and No counters.

 

[sims796]

Well, a yache berry is the elite of the elite of all of the items a poke can have.

But seriously, I am at an impass when it comes to Chomp, strictly because it has been OU for a while. But I am not seeing anyu real argument for it staying, other than what was already said (& disproven, or at least talk about).

 

[Aquilae]

Yache Berry is the best item for an SD Garchomp, allowing it to take down at least one wall before it goes down, assisting you a lot in your sweep. Given the high usage of Garchomp, it is almost mandatory to pack an Ice Beamer/Revenge Killer, allowing Garchomp to down them with ease.

Life Orb does give a lot of power BUT it means Garchomp would be massacred by its normal counters, which make Garchomp even easier to stop, given that you are going to be locking yourself into Outrage for the majority of the sweep.

Life Orb also allows random faster pokemon/priority move carriers to easily KO you because of the recoil. Spikes also helps in this respect.

 

[Anti]

Yache Berry ? What ? I meant frikkin Life Orb, stupid typo.


Well, i meant, yes, it does over centralize the metagame in some certain aspects(Something to take Outrages, namely steels). The other two apply more. Luck and No counters.

I don't see how carrying a steel for Outrages is over centralization. I see a steel on about every team I play. Let's look:

Skarmory
Metagross
Forretress
Bronzong
Jirachi
Lucario
Registeel
Heatran
Empoleon
Scizor
Steelix

Teams often carry at least one of those pokemon, and I'm sure I forgot a few steels. Garchomp isn't even the only pokemon threatening killer dragon attacks. Salamence (most specifically SpecsMence) poses a huge threat with its high-powered dragon moves, and the Lati@s could have the same impact. Dragonite also possesses what is arguably a more threatening Outrage since it can boost its speed and attack while Yache Berry can soak up Ice Shards if necessary.

My point being that Garchomp doesn't over centralize anything. I don't see how you can possibly hold it against Garchomp considering it doesn't in any way over centralize anything. Garchomp is counterable as well. Don't underestimate Cresselia's ability to wall non-Yache Berry Garchomps (and again bulky waters). Anything with Yache Berry doesn't have the power LO Garchomps have, so you can send in something to absolutely laugh off Outrage.

Also, Aquillae brings up a good point that other pokemon can abuse luck as well. For example, some Mamoswine counters missing means gg. For example, if Gyarados were to come in and Waterfall and miss, Mamoswine could really hurt it with Stone Edge (and I mean REALLY hurt). It's just an example too, so don't go yapping about how much stronger Garchomp is than Mamoswine and blah blah blah.

BTW sims, nothing can switch in on CB Machamp without feeling "immense pain" besides a Weezing (who isn't so safe if it carries a normal type move). In other words, Garchomp isn't the only pokemon that's pretty downright difficult to counter.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Also, Aquillae brings up a good point that other pokemon can abuse luck as well. For example, some Mamoswine counters missing means gg. For example, if Gyarados were to come in and Waterfall and miss, Mamoswine could really hurt it with Stone Edge (and I mean REALLY hurt). It's just an example too, so don't go yapping about how much stronger Garchomp is than Mamoswine and blah blah blah.

Gyara isnt a Mamoswine counter.

Your Mamo counters are Bronzong, Skarmory and weezing (Unless its a weird one with blizzard), Uxie, mesprit, Cress etc.

Really any of those missing wont turn the game tbh. Mamo can be walled and its movpool doesn't allow it to defeat each and every one of its counters and neither do the other so called "Evasion modifying ability" pokemon.

Chomp can however can beat each and every one of its "counters" with its movepool.

Garchomp isn't even the only pokemon threatening killer dragon attacks. Salamence (most specifically SpecsMence) poses a huge threat with its high-powered dragon moves, and the Lati@s could have the same impact.

Yawn Blissey.

Dragonite also possesses what is arguably a more threatening Outrage since it can boost its speed and attack while Yache Berry can soak up Ice Shards if necessary.

Yes Draggy is threatening, however its weak to SR, is slower, needs DD to be scary and doesnt have Sand veil.



Machamp is also slow, and whilst it has no counter, it can be revenge killed. Without anything missing.

 

[Anti]

Garchomp is just as easily revenge killed as Machamp, only Machamp has a ton of powerful STAB options, none of which lock it in for 2 or 3 turns and then confuse it.

Draggy's SR weak is irrelevant really. Garchomp takes 25% from 3 layers of spikes too, something Dragonite doesn't take. It is also faster than Garchomp after one DD, which is pretty much free, so it being slower is offset totally by DD. Also, you say Dragonite needs DD to be scary. On the same note, Garchomp needs SD to be scary. Cry CB all you want, but Dragonite's CB Outrage is just as powerful as Garchomp's.

Also, Blissey switching in on Salamence and to a lesser extent Latios is a VERY big risk. Salamence's physical sets FRY Blissey and MixMence carries powerful Draco Meteor while posing a huge threat with Brick Break. Latios can CM on Blissey and laugh off Seismic Toss and any other attack, and then it can kill. That means that Blissey is a very risky switch into anything threatening Draco Meteor. Even Kingdra 2HKOs with Waterfall. And if only Blissey could learn Yawn...

I don't see how that's a good "counter" at all. While it can take Draco Meteor itself, it can't always beat what carries Draco Meteor which makes it ineffective. On Garchomp, however, Metagross can fire off Meteor Mash that is going to hurt pretty badly or can set up Reflect to really laugh at Garchomp. Registeel can Ice Punch it and Jirachi can also set up Reflect and attack it with a 60% para rate. Lucario can SD and kill you with Extremespeed or can ruin you with Dragon Pulse/HP Ice. Heatran can also do that. Empoleon can Ice Beam while Skarmory can either Rosr you away or set up a layer or two of spikes. Forretress and Bronzong can't hurt it much, but if they blow up on you, your physical sweeper is history.

Not to mention you are easily revenge killed, while Dragonite's speed boost makes that more difficult unless Ice Shard is present.

In other words, you're hyping Garchomp's Outrage WAY too much. In a sense, it's just asking something to come in and kill Garchomp.

Also, I'd really love to know how Garchomp beats its counters with its movepool, because IMO that's a load of crap. Its movepool is basically SD, Outrage, Fire Fang, Earthquake, and Draco Meteor is you're feeling lucky. If Garchomp Outrages, it's probably in a lot of trouble as what I said above shows. Otherwise, its best option is Earthquake, which is a good attack (especially after a SD), but its counters can shrug it off pretty easily and Ice Beam it. If it has Yache Berry, its attack power is diminished.

All of Garchomp's counters beat the SDer without a Yache Berry. With a Yache Berry, it is much more frightening, but so is our friends Gyarados with a Wacan Berry (only DD raises your speed, which makes Gyarados a huge threat). Even after 2 SDs, Garchomp isn't invincible and it isn't the fastest beat in the world (meaning our friends like HP Ice Gengar revenge it easily). Ice shard also means all those SD boosts were for nothing. Also, Yache Berry only halves the damage of Ice Beam, so at 50% health powerful STAB attacks are going to KO it. Choice Scarfers also revenge it.

I think you guys are overvaluing Sand Veil a lot. Just because it has it doesn't mean half the time Ice Beam misses. More often than not it hits, and when it doesn't, it's just like if you would miss hitting a SD Gliscor.

Garchomp can't beat any of its counters without a Yache Berry. Period. With one, it still takes 50% damage from Ice Beam with no leftovers recovery and is suscpetable to revenge kills, which means its sweep is over...and even if it comes in again, it won't be powering up like it could earlier.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Garchomp is just as easily revenge killed as Machamp, only Machamp has a ton of powerful STAB options, none of which lock it in for 2 or 3 turns and then confuse it.

If you dont miss that is and you dont have to beat 333 speed with machamp.

Draggy's SR weak is irrelevant really. Garchomp takes 25% from 3 layers of spikes too, something Dragonite doesn't take. It is also faster than Garchomp after one DD, which is pretty much free, so it being slower is offset totally by DD. Also, you say Dragonite needs DD to be scary. On the same note, Garchomp needs SD to be scary. Cry CB all you want, but Dragonite's CB Outrage is just as powerful as Garchomp's.


SR is used on almost every team, Spikes is seen mostly on stall teams.

Also, Blissey switching in on Salamence and to a lesser extent Latios is a VERY big risk. Salamence's physical sets FRY Blissey and MixMence carries powerful Draco Meteor while posing a huge threat with Brick Break. Latios can CM on Blissey and laugh off Seismic Toss and any other attack, and then it can kill. That means that Blissey is a very risky switch into anything threatening Draco Meteor. Even Kingdra 2HKOs with Waterfall. And if only Blissey could learn Yawn...


Well, you said Specs Mence, so i said blissey, nothing about physical sets.

I don't see how that's a good "counter" at all. While it can take Draco Meteor itself, it can't always beat what carries Draco Meteor which makes it ineffective.


Again, you only said Specs Mence.


On Garchomp, however, Metagross can fire off Meteor Mash that is going to hurt pretty badly or can set up Reflect to really laugh at Garchomp. Registeel can Ice Punch it and Jirachi can also set up Reflect and attack it with a 60% para rate. Lucario can SD and kill you with Extremespeed or can ruin you with Dragon Pulse/HP Ice. Heatran can also do that. Empoleon can Ice Beam while Skarmory can either Rosr you away or set up a layer or two of spikes. Forretress and Bronzong can't hurt it much, but if they blow up on you, your physical sweeper is history.

All these counters die how are any of those gonna take EQs or Fire Fang/Blasts ?

Not to mention you are easily revenge killed, while Dragonite's speed boost makes that more difficult unless Ice Shard is present.

yes, Ice Shard.

In other words, you're hyping Garchomp's Outrage WAY too much. In a sense, it's just asking something to come in and kill Garchomp.


No, im really not, its one of the most powerful moves in the game.

Also, I'd really love to know how Garchomp beats its counters with its movepool, because IMO that's a load of crap. Its movepool is basically SD, Outrage, Fire Fang, Earthquake, and Draco Meteor is you're feeling lucky.


Dragon , Ground and Fire hit everything in the game for at least neutral, so its going to be pretty hard to actually find something to "counter" it.

If Garchomp Outrages, it's probably in a lot of trouble as what I said above shows. Otherwise, its best option is Earthquake, which is a good attack (especially after a SD), but its counters can shrug it off pretty easily and Ice Beam it. If it has Yache Berry, its attack power is diminished.

Which counters can take anything from CB or SD sets ?

All of Garchomp's counters beat the SDer without a Yache Berry. With a Yache Berry, it is much more frightening, but so is our friends Gyarados with a Wacan Berry (only DD raises your speed, which makes Gyarados a huge threat).


Gyarados is also weak to SR and is still walled. You dont necessarily need T-Bolt to beat it, Tangrowth shows that.

Even after 2 SDs, Garchomp isn't invincible and it isn't the fastest beat in the world (meaning our friends like HP Ice Gengar revenge it easily). Ice shard also means all those SD boosts were for nothing. Also, Yache Berry only halves the damage of Ice Beam, so at 50% health powerful STAB attacks are going to KO it. Choice Scarfers also revenge it.

Your going to have to sacrifice a poke to actually revenge kill it. When you have to revenge kill something to beat it, something tells me something is wrong.

I think you guys are overvaluing Sand Veil a lot. Just because it has it doesn't mean half the time Ice Beam misses. More often than not it hits, and when it doesn't, it's just like if you would miss hitting a SD Gliscor.

*Sigh* Gliscor cant sweep teams and is easily walled.

Garchomp can't beat any of its counters without a Yache Berry. Period. With one, it still takes 50% damage from Ice Beam with no leftovers recovery and is suscpetable to revenge kills, which means its sweep is over...and even if it comes in again, it won't be powering up like it could earlier.


Ok name me one "counter". Garchomp HAS no counters, it doesnt need Yache Berry to achieve this. Nothing can safely switch in on all its moves on the SD or on the CB set.

"CBChomp is easily beaten through prediction." We can say that for every Pokemon, right? The CBChomp user could also outpredict you and at worst 2HKO your "counter."

 

[Aquilae]

I still keep seeing the "no counters" argument being flung all over the place, Garchomp has no counters so it's broken, etc. etc.
Similarly, I could say Machamp or Heracross has no counters so they are broken, Salamence has no counters so it is broken, etc. etc.
In reality, top tier OU pokemon have no true counters, as they have vast movepools and high offensive stats that make them a threat to anything that is said to "counter" it.

Machamp can 2HKO any one of its said counters with the CB set, not requiring setup. Heracross can 2HKO any one of its said counters with the SD Flame Orb set, Salamence can DD right in the face on any of its said counters and pose a significant threat.

Outrage locks Garchomp in, something that you have failed to overlook, which makes it ridiculously easy to revenge-kill. Sure, Garchomp may have a lot of power with SD LO, but it is almost a 100% revenge kill when locked into Outrage.

Locking Garchomp in also has the unfortunate effect of easily letting a Steel wall your Outrages and proceed to KO. Saying a smart player would use Garchomp well is not proving anything, as a smart player could use almost any decent pokemon well and still score KOs. The fact that Garchomp has unpredictability and destructive power fails to prove anything as Salamence, Heracross and other top-tier OU pokemon also are vastly unpredictable.

Back to the argument about Sand Veil/Snow Cloak. From what I see, you are saying that the pokemon who do not have as much offensive power as Garchomp. This is a fundamentally flawed argument as it does not take into account what the other Sand Veil/Snow Cloak abusers can do.
Anti mentioned a Baton Passing Gliscor, obviously that isn't going to sweep teams, but passing to an Agiligross or a similar physical attacker could give the other player the advantage, considering that Gliscor isn't a sweeper like Garchomp - it is not easily revenge-killed and can still come back and SDpass some more.
Froslass stands out as a premiere Snow Cloak abuser, Sub + Confusion/Paralysis effectively incapacitates your opponent most of the time, and Froslass can setup Spikes, and also serve as a utility revenge-killer.

And Yache provides Garchomp with a 100% chance of downing the opponent's Bulky Water/Starmie, and it also allows Garchomp to rampage on Hippowdon and Gliscor without fear of being revenge-killed. It allows Garchomp to pose a threat early, mid and lategame, and it can also serve to down Weavile.

 

[Anti]

I know I was talking about SpecsMence, but Blissey can't be sure it is SpecsMence until it goes, which means that it isn't a safe switch into Draco Meteor initially.

Also, you are over hyping Outrage. It locks you in (actually somebody did just that against my OFFENSIVE team and Garchomp said hi to Mamo's Ice Sahrd =D) which is a price to pay. Draco Meteor is more powerful and grants you the ability to switch. Heck, I'd prefer even Dragon Claw on Chomp as it can run off at the sight of Mamoswine or Weavile. It may be powerful, but its drawbacks are significant.

As for Gyarados, you can't just assume it's going to take SR damage. Besides, the only pokemon that can really counter Gyarados without thunderbolt are Tangrowth and Celebi. Nobody uses Tangrowth and Celebi dies if Stone Edge ch's.

Also, you say SD Gliscor can't sweep teams and is easily walled. I agree with that, but by your logic, Ice Beam could miss three times and EQ could take out the random bulky water. Say "IF it hits" all you want, but I have heard of a pokemon called Abomasnow and I have seen Rain Dancers and sunny day abusers running around. Besides, there's a chance Garchomp won't even have SS support with it. Even if it does, 80% is pretty good.

Also, Hippowdon and Donphan do well against the choice set, and if the opposing player is stupid and uses Outrage, hello random steel to laugh at you! Cresselia is also effective against Garchomp in general. Anything without a Yache Berry it beats, and even things with a Yache Berry take 50% damage from Ice Beam and are susceptible to revenge kills. Bulky waters do well against non-Yache SDchomp as well.

_________________________

Anyways, I think you need to read this so listen up:

I think the "no counters" argument is rubbish. Garchomp does have counters believe it or not, Cresselia being the best. If you speak of CB Outrage, have fun giving Heatran a free switch to Dragon Pulse you to your grave, or you give Skarmory a few layers of Spikes. otherwise, it is walled.

Let's just say Garchomp DOES have no counters. Okay, so it doesn't. Like Aquillae mentioned though, neither do several other OU threats, so if that is the only thing pushing Garchomp towards ubers, then Garchomp is obviously OU (I'm not saying it is, just read on...)

Like uncounterable OUs like Gallade, Heracross, and Machamp, Garchomp does not over centralize the metagame - we all can agree on that. We now turn to the last and IMO the least important criteria for an uber pokemon: luck.

In other words, the only real difference between Garchomp and other uncounterable OUs is luck. That's essentially saying that because Garchomp has Sand Veil and SS MIGHT be active and an attack MIGHT miss, Garchomp is uber? That doesn't make sense to me. In case you don't get what I mean (since I AM bad at wording things >_>), I'll explain briefly:

Over Centalization: Garchomp does not over centralize the metagame. Uncounterable high OUs do not over centralize the metagame.

No Counters: Garchomp has no counters (though I disagree with that, I'll let that slide for now). Many high OUs have no counters (AKA uncounterable high OUs).

Luck: Garchomp has luck on its side. Uncounterable high OUs do not.

The bolded part is the ONLY difference. Without Sand Veil, Garchomp is just like other high OUs. What Garchomp can do to its "counters" doesn't even matter since other OUs can do the same. The ONLy difference is that luck factor. I certainly agree Ice Beam missing is annoying, but is it REALLY a good enough reason to BAN something to the uber tier?

Think about it...

Sand Veil give Garchomp a 20% chance of evading a 100% accuracy attack. That means that every 4 out of 5 attacks you use will hit (statistically speaking). We must remember that a SS might not even be taking place and that many pokemon change the weather (Kingdra, for example).

I'm sorry, but banning Garchomp to ubers just because your move MIGHT miss IF a SS is going on is not a good enough reason to ban it.

EDIT: Just to clear something up about Gyarados...it isn't as easily walled as you think. My 50-2~ish offensive team has a Gyarados (with a GOOD set used the RIGHT way...Wacan Berry FTW). Whenever I don't need it for defensive purposes and there isn't a bulky grasser (which is a lot since Mence takes a lot of hits gyara does), it sweeps the opposing team. Every time. If it comes in with 75% health or better and there is no bulky grass (and I'm not in on the Gyarados "counter" lol), Gyarados sweeps the team or takes out about 4 pokemon. There is no electric priority move =D Just to point that out...

 

[Dark Azelf]

I know I was talking about SpecsMence, but Blissey can't be sure it is SpecsMence until it goes, which means that it isn't a safe switch into Draco Meteor initially.

You were talking solely about Specsmence, and i assumed said blissey knew this.


Also, you are over hyping Outrage. It locks you in (actually somebody did just that against my OFFENSIVE team and Garchomp said hi to Mamo's Ice Sahrd =D) which is a price to pay. Draco Meteor is more powerful and grants you the ability to switch. Heck, I'd prefer even Dragon Claw on Chomp as it can run off at the sight of Mamoswine or Weavile. It may be powerful, but its drawbacks are significant.


Why am i over hyping Outrage 120 BP attack thats ONLY resisted by steels. Ice Shard isnt even reliable, Yache Berry, and sandveil, even though you've made the best possible decision WITH using Ice Shard, you miss, or the damage has been nerved, kthnxbai. No other pokemon it this game breaking, you could argue Dragonite, but as i said it DOESNT have sand veil and is weak to SR, deny this as much as you like, buts its HUGE and needs to be accounted for. Dragonite is also weak to Rock whilst Garchomp resists it.


Also your making is SOUND as though it HAS to use Outrage, it has other moves on its set also.


As for Gyarados, you can't just assume it's going to take SR damage. Besides, the only pokemon that can really counter Gyarados without thunderbolt are Tangrowth and Celebi. Nobody uses Tangrowth and Celebi dies if Stone Edge ch's.

Again, SR IS a factor, so you cant say "lol SR doesnt exist".

Shamin, leafeon also?

Tangrowth is BL, so people DO use it.

Also, you say SD Gliscor can't sweep teams and is easily walled. I agree with that, but by your logic, Ice Beam could miss three times and EQ could take out the random bulky water. Say "IF it hits" all you want, but I have heard of a pokemon called Abomasnow and I have seen Rain Dancers and sunny day abusers running around. Besides, there's a chance Garchomp won't even have SS support with it. Even if it does, 80% is pretty good.

So why should we all have to run a weather team to counter this ?


80% is Luck based, this is exactly the argument WHY things can be up for nomination in uber initially.

Dont even say other accuracy modifing pokemon abilities, ive listed counters for those.

Ive yet to see a 100% sure fire to chomp.

Also, Hippowdon and Donphan do well against the choice set, and if the opposing player is stupid and uses Outrage, hello random steel to laugh at you! Cresselia is also effective against Garchomp in general. Anything without a Yache Berry it beats, and even things with a Yache Berry take 50% damage from Ice Beam and are susceptible to revenge kills. Bulky waters do well against non-Yache SDchomp as well.


Hippowdon yes, but still it brings SS into the match which activated Sand Veil, Donphans weak un stabbed Ice Shard is a 3hko, and it has no reliable recovery move, so it cant switch in.


_________________________

Anyways, I think you need to read this so listen up:

I think the "no counters" argument is rubbish. Garchomp does have counters believe it or not, Cresselia being the best. If you speak of CB Outrage, have fun giving Heatran a free switch to Dragon Pulse you to your grave, or you give Skarmory a few layers of Spikes. otherwise, it is walled.

You going to actually have to switch Cressy into chomp to find out what set its running by which time its kinda too late.

Your also forgetting that it can be locked into Outrage for JUST 2 turns, by which time Heatran comes in its going to be done, thus being able to switch out and now your left with a half health cressy and a Heatran. So nothing can come back next turn without dieing to a well predicted move. This is also kinda luck based if your hoping its going to be locked into Outrage for 3 turns

Again "CB Chomp it beaten through prediction" cant we say this about all pokemon ? How is skarm gonna counter ANY chomp set, Fire Blast owns it, as does Fire Fang.


Let's just say Garchomp DOES have no counters. Okay, so it doesn't. Like Aquillae mentioned though, neither do several other OU threats, so if that is the only thing pushing Garchomp towards ubers, then Garchomp is obviously OU (I'm not saying it is, just read on...)

Like uncounterable OUs like Gallade, Heracross, and Machamp, Garchomp does not over centralize the metagame - we all can agree on that. We now turn to the last and IMO the least important criteria for an uber pokemon: luck.

What ? Spiritoms says hi to Gallade, Crobat can beat Hera (Only SD burn orb versions) as does Gliscor, even Weezing (unless its a Burn Orb, in which case i mentioned Crobat).

Weezing walls Machamp without Facade and Cress walls machamp without Payback =)


All these pokemon are slow aswell, and you dont have to beat 333 minimum so can be easily revenge killed.

In other words, the only real difference between Garchomp and other uncounterable OUs is luck. That's essentially saying that because Garchomp has Sand Veil and SS MIGHT be active and an attack MIGHT miss, Garchomp is uber? That doesn't make sense to me. In case you don't get what I mean (since I AM bad at wording things >_>), I'll explain briefly:


No, you still havent mentioned a sure fire counter.

Over Centalization: Garchomp does not over centralize the metagame. Uncounterable high OUs do not over centralize the metagame.

Yes, but it does overcentralise the metagame more than most things, Im not saying ZMFG overcentralise but it still does, for example being able to at least beat 333 speed, or have Ice Shard, having a steel to absorb outrage.

No Counters: Garchomp has no counters (though I disagree with that, I'll let that slide for now). Many high OUs have no counters (AKA uncounterable high OUs).

Id like to see another poke with no counters.


Luck: Garchomp has luck on its side. Uncounterable high OUs do not.

Like what ?

The bolded part is the ONLY difference. Without Sand Veil, Garchomp is just like other high OUs. What Garchomp can do to its "counters" doesn't even matter since other OUs can do the same. The ONLy difference is that luck factor. I certainly agree Ice Beam missing is annoying, but is it REALLY a good enough reason to BAN something to the uber tier?

Its really not the only difference. No, your completely missing the point, Dragon, Ground and Fire cover everything in the game for at least neutral. Whilst alot of pokemon can grant the same coverage, they still ARE Wall-able. Chomp is not, all its so called counters can be at least 2hko'd and therefore arnt really counters at all.

Its not just luck either.



Think about it...

Sand Veil give Garchomp a 20% chance of evading a 100% accuracy attack. That means that every 4 out of 5 attacks you use will hit (statistically speaking). We must remember that a SS might not even be taking place and that many pokemon change the weather (Kingdra, for example).

=/ Yay, lets ALL use Kingdra, T-Tar and Hippow Can change it back INSTANTLY.

I'm sorry, but banning Garchomp to ubers just because your move MIGHT miss IF a SS is going on is not a good enough reason to ban it.

If and might are still luck based. Why do you think we BAN Brightpowder, its game breaking, same with chomp.

A counter must be able to both switch into the pokémon it's supposed to counter, with little to no risk to itself, and also pose an immediate threat to said pokémon.

Really, all these so called counters ARE at HUGE risks to themselves.


Also saying it can be outpredicted is moot, wouldnt Cresselai be a Heracross counter by that logic ?

 

[sims796]

I just don't get it. All these points for Chomp to be uber, Anti has helped make. And now he's going back on them, using the same countered points.

 

[Aquilae]

Whatever that has been said in this debate in relation to Garchomp's Uber status, has got to do with Sand Veil. Nullify Sand Veil, and bye Uberness.

Really, I could slap a Wacan Berry on a DD SweeperDos, and it would take down the opponent's bulky water/revenge killer anytime. This proves one thing: Get more than one pokemon which can handle Garchomp in case of said stuff happening. We can't just say OMG GARCHOMP TOOK DOWN WEAVILE AND NOW I CAN'T WIN UBER UBER, it should be a given that you prepare for the premiere offensive threats in OU.

Outrage gives confusion, which results in confusion, which is a 50% chance of said Chomp dealing:

12.8% - 15.3% without SD
25.4% - 30.1% with 1 SD

Which makes it hard for Garchomp to stay in and keep on dealing damage after said 2-3 turns.

And on the Cress & Heatran analogy:

Garchomp used Outrage!
Trainer switched in Cresselia!
Cresselia lost 50% of its health!

Trainer switched in Heatran!
Garchomp used Outrage!
Heatran lost xx% of its health!
Garchomp became confused because of fatigue!
Heatran used PREDICTED MOVE!

It pretty much will switch when Heatran comes in, so you could use this to your advantage and actually hit a counter hard on the switchin.

Spiritomb CANNOT beat Gallade because of the possibility of status (Hypnosis, WoW), and Bulk Up and Swords Dance, Spiritomb also gets hit hard by Night Slash/X Scissor.

You just contradicted yourself there that Gliscor walls Heracross without SD Burn Orb. So what if it is? Sub/SD Hera beats Crobat. You are contradicting yourself by saying that Cresselia walls Machamp if its x and y... Skarmory similarly walls CB/Scarf sets, revenge killers can switch in on SDChomp, etc.

Ttar and Hippowdon changing the weather back instantly is not a factor, as said weather changers would force Garchomp out, which is the whole point of countering it. It also helps that the player could learn to predict a Ttar/Hippo switch and make the best choice in terms of moves.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Whatever that has been said in this debate in relation to Garchomp's Uber status, has got to do with Sand Veil. Nullify Sand Veil, and bye Uberness.

Really, I could slap a Wacan Berry on a DD SweeperDos, and it would take down the opponent's bulky water/revenge killer anytime. This proves one thing: Get more than one pokemon which can handle Garchomp in case of said stuff happening. We can't just say OMG GARCHOMP TOOK DOWN WEAVILE AND NOW I CAN'T WIN UBER UBER, it should be a given that you prepare for the premiere offensive threats in OU.

So, it still gets owned by Grass, Tangrowth etc.


And on the Cress & Heatran analogy:

Garchomp used Outrage!
Trainer switched in Cresselia!
Cresselia lost 50% of its health!

Trainer switched in Heatran!
Garchomp used Outrage!
Heatran lost xx% of its health!
Garchomp became confused because of fatigue!
Heatran used PREDICTED MOVE!

It pretty much will switch when Heatran comes in, so you could use this to your advantage and actually hit a counter hard on the switchin.

My point is, it can still switch out. And come back later with your half health Cressy, and it can then predict YOU next turn.

Spiritomb CANNOT beat Gallade because of the possibility of status (Hypnosis, WoW), and Bulk Up and Swords Dance, Spiritomb also gets hit hard by Night Slash/X Scissor.

Spiritomb doesnt care about status, Rest-Talk Tomb.

Its still immune to both Gallades STAB moves and still isnt 2hko'd by a CB X-Scissor. (252 hp / 100 def Neutral)

Cress walls any set without Night SLash or X-Scissor, as does Dusknoir.

Gliscor walls any set without Ice Punch.


So its basically got moveslot syndrome





You just contradicted yourself there that Gliscor walls Heracross without SD Burn Orb. So what if it is? Sub/SD Hera beats Crobat. You are contradicting yourself by saying that Cresselia walls Machamp if its x and y... Skarmory similarly walls CB/Scarf sets, revenge killers can switch in on SDChomp, etc.


Eww, how is skarm a counter, Fire Blast/Fire Fang.

I didnt contradict my self, i mentioned SPECIFICALLY that each set does infact have a counter. Each set, i mean, with certain moves included, or being left off.


I said Gliscor and weezing wall Choice sets and Crobat walls SD Burn orb. Thats not contradictory, thats just 2 different sets, its no different than me saying Cress walls mixVire whilst Forretress walls physical sets.





Ttar and Hippowdon changing the weather back instantly is not a factor, as said weather changers would force Garchomp out, which is the whole point of countering it. It also helps that the player could learn to predict a Ttar/Hippo switch and make the best choice in terms of moves.

Why is it not a factor ? Rain has to be set up, thus wasting a turn Hippow and tar easily start it upon entry. Abomasnow cant switch in. As for sunny day.......


So your going to have sacrifice a poke each time Chomp comes out, JUST to change the weather back.

 

[Aquilae]

Every player can predict. That does not help the argument at all, how many times do I have to say it? Saying Spiritomb can wall Gallade 100% isn't a worthy reason as there exist stuff like SubGallade or BulkyGallade that laugh at Spiritomb.

Garchomp is like other top tier OU's, there is no 100% counter to it, it all depends on knowing its set. A CB version is walled by Skarmory/Bronzong, Scarf versions are walled by Skarm/Bronzong and other physical walls, and SD versions can be outpredicted as SD takes a turn to set up.

If Chomp uses FB/Fire Fang, it is arguably giving another pokemon an opportunity to switch in. With the amount of Fire resists and immunities present in the OU tier (waters, dragons, Heatran), locking Garchomp into a Fire move for that one turn is disadvantageous. The fact that CBChomp does not 2HKO 252/156 Impish Skarm means Skarm can Roost off the damage. The fact that Garchomp also has to use a Fire move two times is not working in its favor because of the points mentioned above.

You don't HAVE to setup Rain with Kingdra, you could snare the obvious Tar/Hippo switch upon entry. The fact that Kingdra also packs STAB hard-hitting moves, Surf, Draco Meteor and Waterfall also works against its favor.

You don't have to change the weather back to deal with Chomp, as Anti said it can still be dealt with 4/5 of the time when SS is up.

DD SweeperDos can still pack Ice Fang, and Tangrowth and Celebi can only manage a 3HKO at best.

 

[Anti]

Before I list all the uncounterable OUs, I think your argument that Garchomp's movepool and its ability to hit everything at least neutral, not to mebntion it 2HKOs all its counters, somehow makes it more powerful than other high OUs? Um, CB Machamp? Thunderpunch and Ice Punch cover everything at least neutral and Dynamicpunch/Close Commbat and Payback cover everything neutral. Gallade is much the same way, and as a Spiritomb user myself I can tell you trying to wall Gallade with it is a bad bad idea (it BUed about 3 times on my, laughing off any attack of mine).

Also, interesting how Gyarados is ONLY walled by bulky grass types. Don't even say Leafeon - NOBODY uses that in OUs. Using it in OUs just to counter Gyarados would be over centralization after all, right? If they take Spikes damage........

Uh, I would continue but a tornado warning has been issued where I live and our house is kinda in immediate danger, so I'm going to take the liberty of going to find shelter and editing this one later, k? That tornado siren is driving me mad, so I can't think anyways >_>

EDIT: No more tornado warning =D

To continue where I left off.......

If they take Spikes damage coming in on Gyarados, they are at risk of Ice Fang or Stone Edge's high crit rate.

Anyways, the only difference between high OUs and Garchomp is luck. Neither over centralize, and both have awesome coverage, power, and are uncounterable (again, I disagree with that, so meh).

Also, I'd just like to point out that Outrage on SDchomp probably isn't all too wise. I say this because some pokemon are only hit hard by Garchomp's dragon STAB. Those pokemon would be bulky floating psychics like Mesprit and Cresselia. The same goes for Salamence and Gyarados. If they come in on you, your only choice would be to Outrage them, which would mean a switch to Skarmory either that turn or the turn after (to be safe). That means the a steel that can massacre you can come in and simply level you (lovin' the verb choice =D) The best example is probably Heatran, who might carry choice Scarf and HP Ice you or it could have Specs Dragon Pulse. I other words, that's how you're overhyped Outrage. It helps with Garchomp's normal counters, but makes it vulnerable to most everything else. And with Dragon Claw, you get walled by Cresselia and the other stuff. Yache Berry buys you time and helps it beat its counter, but it doesn't have the speed of something like Wacan Gyarados and becomes vulnerable to revenge kills, especially if ity were to use Outrage.

Also, note Kingdra and other weather starters absolutely laugh at both Tar and Hippowdon, and they aren't going to switch Hippowdon ot Tar in to just die - they're too valuable. And again, there are other weather starters, Kingdra just happens to be the most common. Ludicolo and Moltres both pull it off very well, and Abomasnow can start hail over SS and threaten Garchomp with Ice Shard if it switches in on the same turn.

Aquillae is right as well, that without luck Garchomp isn't going to ubers because it's the only difference between it and higher OUs (though most uncounterable high OUs don't have a 4x weakness to a move type every team carries). Quite frankly, I don't think that's enough to move it to ubers, or even close. You can say "IF it hits" all you want, but it usually does. Actually, last night I played a scarfchomp and my Mamo's Ice Shard missed, and not only did I survive the hit but I went back and KOed ol' Garchomp.

And wait...Crobat walls burn Orb Heracross? I'll use your term - what if SR is up? what if Heracross launches Facade in its face as it switches in? Even if it doesn't KO, Heracross can come back later and Crobat won't be able to switch in safely on Facade, SR or not. Even if Crobat was this amazing counter, does that mean every team has to use Crobat just to counter burn orb Hera? No, or else it would over centralize. We know choice sets are walled, but that's only by a few pokemon and burn orb is tougher to counter anyways.

CBchomp has counters (Sakrmory and Bronzong), as does SDchomp (Cresselia & bulky waters...though with Yache Berry they lose, but old chomp is revenged insanely easily, especially if it Outrages). Chain Chomp is walled pretty much by everything that walls SDchomp and more. Scarf is just a weaker CB set that can only be revenged by priority moves really, but it's easy to wall anyways.

The hardest set to counter and beat is the SD, which isn't the fastest and is revenge killed if it has Yache Berry.

So really, the only argument for its move to ubers is Sand Veil since that really is what differentiates it from other uncounterable OUs, as I've said many times before. That's only IF SS is up and IF the opponent doesn't have a weather starter, and now for the biggest if: IF your attack really does miss. It's only a 20% chance - that's lower than the chance of Horn Drill hitting.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Before I list all the uncounterable OUs, I think your argument that Garchomp's movepool and its ability to hit everything at least neutral, not to mebntion it 2HKOs all its counters, somehow makes it more powerful than other high OUs? Um, CB Machamp? Thunderpunch and Ice Punch cover everything at least neutral and Dynamicpunch/Close Commbat and Payback cover everything neutral. Gallade is much the same way, and as a Spiritomb user myself I can tell you trying to wall Gallade with it is a bad bad idea (it BUed about 3 times on my, laughing off any attack of mine).

Also, interesting how Gyarados is ONLY walled by bulky grass types. Don't even say Leafeon - NOBODY uses that in OUs. Using it in OUs just to counter Gyarados would be over centralization after all, right? If they take Spikes damage........

Uh, I would continue but a tornado warning has been issued where I live and our house is kinda in immediate danger, so I'm going to take the liberty of going to find shelter and editing this one later, k? That tornado siren is driving me mad, so I can't think anyways >_>

Ive just said Machamp is walled by Weezing if it doesnt carry Facade and walled by Cress if it doesnt carry Payback.


As for Gyarados being countered by ONLY grass types, i never said this, it was just you mentioned Waycan berry Gyarados, and i was saying thunderbolt is not the only way to counter it. HP Electric Slowbro/Suicune/ W/E also comes to mind. Dont even say Bite, if you put that in, you have movslot syndrome.


As for Gallade, CB is walled by spiritomb as ive already said X-Scissor does not 2hko 252 / 100 def neutral Spiritomb. Bulk up has moveset syndrome, if it lacks Night Slash / X-Scissor, Dusknoir and Cress lol at it, if it lacks Ice Punch Gliscor walls it all day long. Lacks Psycho Cut ? Good Luck with Weezing.


Leafeon is BL btw.


Tbh, i couldnt care less about this any more, im gonna wash my hands of trying to argue, we're not going to agree ever, so its pointless. Its Ookas tier list after all and so ill just leave who ever else wants to argue it out.

 

[Anti]

lol, BL means nobody uses them in OUs basically.

What you're forgetting is that Garchomp too has counters, only more. Also, what happens when old spiritomb switches in on Stealth Rock? gg

Weezing can't handle a guts boosted Machamp either, and Cresselia certainly can't.

Read my edit as well.

EDIT: We don't have to agree - Garchomp just has to be proven OU or Uber. The problem is that it's tough to do either one really, so we have to use good judgment. Garchomp just happens to be one of the best OU sweepers, maybe the best. I can guarentee it isn't because of Sand Veil though.