Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[sims796]

But in order to do that, you'd need to settle on a solid point, which neither side seems to be doing. All that's happening is arguments, and repeating the same thing. We need a mediator.

 

[Anti]

What both sides CAN settle on:

- Garchomp and other high OUs have no or extremely few counters.
- Neither Garchomp nor high OUs over centralize the metagame.

The only thing Garchomp has over them is Sand Veil, which requires a SS starter and even then, you miss things a lot.

But basically, we need the mediator to decide if that alone is enough to push Garchomp into ubers.

I personally don't think so, and I don't really see how a 20% chance of an attack missing IF a certain weather effect is up really makes something "uber." I really don't see how you CAN think that since the chance is so slim and you pretty much have to run a SS team to activate it (or just have Hippowdon or Tar, which still restricts you quite a bit).

 

[sims796]

What both sides CAN settle on:

- Garchomp and other high OUs have no or extremely few counters.
- Neither Garchomp nor high OUs over centralize the metagame.

The only thing Garchomp has over them is Sand Veil, which requires a SS starter and even then, you miss things a lot.

But basically, we need the mediator to decide if that alone is enough to push Garchomp into ubers.

I personally don't think so, and I don't really see how a 20% chance of an attack missing IF a certain weather effect is up really makes something "uber." I really don't see how you CAN think that since the chance is so slim and you pretty much have to run a SS team to activate it (or just have Hippowdon or Tar, which still restricts you quite a bit).

I disagree. You sorta neglect how very, very easy it is to set up Sandstorm. All that requires is a switch in. Or, it may be the starter (which I think is silly, but it did catch me off-guard one time). The one way to stop the hax is to change the weather, which isn't good enough. Ttar & Hippowdon are in almost every team nowadays, and they work well together, so I don't see where it restricts. 4/5 for every move (making already inaccurate moves useless) is still a tad unfair, seeing how every time I make a move, I might lose.

Personally, the best way of balancing it out would be to have another insta-weather starter. I find it unfair that they gave only Sandstream.. Another Drought and Drizzle poke (as well as a few more Cloud Nine pokes) would make Chomp not as scary.

 

[Anti]

The bottom line kinda explains where I'm coming from though - without Sand Veil, Garchomp isn't being considered for ubers right now. The fact that its ability only activates 20% of the time makes me wonder how in the world it is "uber."

So basically, if you never miss with Ice Beam or whatever you're using, Garchomp isn't uber. I think that's why we have had minimal trouble in the past - it doesn't activate a whole lot. In a way, Garchomp is OU 80% of the time and uber 20% of the time (though even with Sand Veil I think it isn't uber). So even if Sand Veil was this uberizing trait, it would only activate 20% of the time, and when it doesn't, Garchomp is like any other high tier (uncounterable) OU, correct?

Also, all teams don't carry Hippowdon or Tar. Both can't switch in on a lot of things and if they do, it's lights out. Garchomp is set up, but congrats! Your physical wall is dead! (or in Tar's case a sweeper). Both actually set up SS very easily, but Garchomp still has to switch in. Garchomp is bulky and has good resistances, but certain moves (especially Ice Beam, of course) destroy it. Garchomp has no trouble switching in, but it can still take significant damage, especially is Spikes is in play.

I will give you that when Shoddy haxes you up, Sand Veil gets VERY irritating. However, an 80% chance at hitting something is still pretty good, and banning Garchomp because Ice Beam has a small chance to miss just doesn't add up.

Even if SS is set up fine and Garchomp switches in easily (which happens a lot), Sand Veil might not even activate; it could, but the chances are slim, and even if it does it isn't "ZOMG 6-0 SWEEP"

EDIT: It really is quite an opinion thing...it depends on how much Sand Veil affects you. I really don't see why people hate it so much though, as I run stall teams a lot (and stat-uppers are often troublesome) and I still really don't mind it. Cresselia misses? Oh well, I'll just send in Hippowdon (or with teams that actually have offense, you revenge Garchomp >=D)

But, uh, yeah. I've never had any more problems with Garchomp than I have had with other high tier OUs, so meh.

 

[Aquilae]

A Drought or Drizzle pokemon would completely change the game and would have an overcentralising effect on the game beyond Hail and Sandstorm. I can say with confidence that Kyogre/Groudon is 100% uber, and even a 100 BST pokemon with said abilities would be uber as it would centralise the game around weather and how to counter it, and pokemon would be neglected as they cannot work effectively in weather conditions, or cannot counter the said threats.

I agree with Anti, Sand Veil is what differentiates it from other high-tier OUs, and would be about the only thing that would qualify Garchomp as uber. I had have some bad experiences with Sand Veil on Shoddy before, namely Ice Beam missing four times (0.032% chance), and quite a lot of other evasion related stuff. But apart from that, Garchomp is just a top-tier OU, not qualified for Uber. If Sand Stream were as broken as you said, people would be running 4-5 Garchomp counters/revenge killers in their teams, and Ttar/Hippo would be used in almost every team, and Abomasnow would see a rise in usage too.

Sand Veil is just a 20% chance of not countering Garchomp, if you decide that is Uber quality, ship it off to Ubers by all means. I also feel that the other Sand Veil/Snow Cloak pokemon deserve a mention for raising evasion, not just Garchomp.

 

[Zerosliver]

Idk why you guys are saying Garchomp is uber because of his ability.

1. One Ice shard from a weavile can OHKO it.
2. Hidden power Ice and Ice beam are used in every team
3. I never had any trouble with Garchomp
4. Sand Veil=Fail

Relying on Sand Veil to counter counters is just randomly pathetic, making a pokemon uber which cant kill other ubers is stupid if you ask me.

I would rather use a Jolteon instead of a Garchomp (Hidden power!)

 

[El Gofre]

Zero, read this thread for most of the reasoning behind garchomps uberyness. It is in no way uber just because of its ability, otherwise frosglass and the like would be uber too. In answer to your reasoning, it's almost impossible to get an ice shard from weavile because it would die as it switches in. same goes for any sweeper with ice beam or HP ice. Sand veil isnt fail either, it's excellent.

 

[Zerosliver]

Who says I have to switch my Weavile in? Sometimes you just need to let a pokemon faint to prevent others from fainting.

I just think its pathetic to call him uber. I can counter him easily, more easily than a Ninjask.

All Im saying.

 

[El Gofre]

Who says I have to switch my Weavile in? Sometimes you just need to let a pokemon faint to prevent others from fainting.

I just think its pathetic to call him uber. I can counter him easily, more easily than a Ninjask.

All Im saying.

Tbh that's kinda arrogant. If that arguament was put together by one of the sites top battlers it shows that there are problems with it. How would you counter it then?

 

[Zerosliver]

For instance: I use Swellow as a lead pokemon, its more speedy than a Garchomp, unless its using Choice Scarf. I use protect to scout for attacks, hel use outrage or dragon claw. I just have to let my Swellow die if hes a Choice Scarfer, if he isnt, il kill him in one Facade hit. If he is, il send in Jolteon after Swellow faints. I use Hidden Power Ice and hes dust. That sone way, I can give you more.

Im just against the whole uber thingy and no , I don't use one.

Im not going to give all the arguments I can come up with, since they ahev allready been posted.

And one thing: If I would ever battle someone, I would let them use a Garchomp, since I dont think its uber.

 

[El Gofre]

I dont suppose you've ran the damage calcs? guts-boosted STAB facade 3HKOs standard garchomp with 40HP evs, and jolteon is the same. Garchomp is capable of OHKOing both.

 

[Zerosliver]

Lol, 2HKO maybe, but my Swellow isnt Crappy as u Think. I can 2HKO one with ease.

How would garchomp kill something he cant hit first?

 

[El Gofre]

No, have you run the damage calcs?Because it's not that I doubt your competence, but I have ran the calcs so I know what I'm saying. A swellow, with guts, facade, STAB, a beneficial nature and 252Attack EVs will do 40-48% to a garchomp with 40 HP EVs and a neutral nature. It doesnt matter how well it's raised, that's as strong as it can get, and after one facade it will KO'd by outrage.

 

[Zerosliver]

Idc, Swellow will obviously die against a OU.
Jolteon OHKO's it. What ever you do.

But still, garchomp can switch out.

I know why you think hes uber, im not saying those reasons are false.
But I just think he inst that uncounterable enough.
He still has a big fat 400% ice weakness and one ice shard is enough to kill him. Garchomps main problem is his average speed, which can be compensated with choice scarfs.
He is a great pokemon overall. But even a Kingdra can kill it.

 

[El Gofre]

Like i said, the calcs for jolt also read 3HKO. If you'd like me to run them again I could provide you with a screenshot. Don't ban him if you don't want to, but you're significantly underestimating it. I'm not gonna post here anymore, if you wanna ignore the evidence that's your choice. Good luck with all your endeavours.

 

[Lalapizzame]

Idc, Swellow will obviously die against a OU.
Jolteon OHKO's it. What ever you do.

But still, garchomp can switch out.

I know why you think hes uber, im not saying those reasons are false.
But I just think he inst that uncounterable enough.
He still has a big fat 400% ice weakness and one ice shard is enough to kill him. Garchomps main problem is his average speed, which can be compensated with choice scarfs.
He is a great pokemon overall. But even a Kingdra can kill it.

Jolteon will never OHKO with Timid and no Special Attack EVs and Swellow doesn't always "obviously die against a OU." Kingdra can't afford to switch in,risking the chance of being OHKOed so it can't counter or switch in to Garchomp.Also,Kingdra's slower and will be unless in Rain which Sandstorm negates quite commonly in OU battles.Yache Berry says Hi to "his big fat 4x Ice weakness"and almost nothing with an Ice Attack can switch in safely.You're basically arguing against yourself."But still, Garchomp can switch out" Exactly,which means your hits are hitting something which can take them.Even if Garchomp stays,it can threaten to OHKO with STAB Earthquake/Outrage with Choice Band/Swords Dance/Life Orb to back it up.

 

[ABYAY]

1. Yache Berry Will ruin Ice Shard, for a weakened Ice Shard fails to OHKO, even Banded.
2. Sand Veil means that Ice Shard only has 80% chance to hit. If you miss, then your team is going to be crippled enough to where another sweeper will clean up all of your pokemon.
3. Sweeper + Bulkiness = pretty dang insane. If Garchomp didn't get SD, then it'd be MUCH less threatening.

Also, some updates from smogon if someone would like to copy. Steelix, Jynx, and Leafeon have been moved from BL down to UU, and Pinsir has ranked up to BL.

 

[Ooka]

Alright, I edited it.

Also, if Garchomp has a Yache Berry, that means he isn't getting power from Life Orb or Choice Band, making him less of a threat. I still think he's broken, but I figured I'd throw it out there that if he goes for one item, it could ruin a 2HKO.

 

[Ársa]

Who says I have to switch my Weavile in? Sometimes you just need to let a pokemon faint to prevent others from fainting.

I just think its pathetic to call him uber. I can counter him easily, more easily than a Ninjask.

All Im saying.

lol, can you spell O.V.E.R. C.E.N.T.R.A.L.I.Z.I.N.G? if you have to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes into battle, then you're screwed. You've forgotten one major point, GARCHOMP IS ABLE TO BE SWITCHED OUT. You are relying too heavily on the fact the opponent will definately use Outrage, which is pretty lol considering only 1 or 2 standard sets actually utilize outrage.

For instance: I use Swellow as a lead pokemon, its more speedy than a Garchomp, unless its using Choice Scarf. I use protect to scout for attacks, hel use outrage or dragon claw. I just have to let my Swellow die if hes a Choice Scarfer, if he isnt, il kill him in one Facade hit. If he is, il send in Jolteon after Swellow faints. I use Hidden Power Ice and hes dust. That sone way, I can give you more.

Im just against the whole uber thingy and no , I don't use one.

Im not going to give all the arguments I can come up with, since they ahev allready been posted.

And one thing: If I would ever battle someone, I would let them use a Garchomp, since I dont think its uber.

no need to comment here I don't think, Gofre has already given you the damage calcs, props for that. :)

Idc, Swellow will obviously die against a OU.
Jolteon OHKO's it. What ever you do.

But still, garchomp can switch out.

I know why you think hes uber, im not saying those reasons are false.
But I just think he inst that uncounterable enough.
He still has a big fat 400% ice weakness and one ice shard is enough to kill him. Garchomps main problem is his average speed, which can be compensated with choice scarfs.
He is a great pokemon overall. But even a Kingdra can kill it.

102 spd is average? That is one of the most potent speed stats. It's odd, meaning it doesn't need to run 252 spd EV's to outspeed base 100's, allowing it to become more bulky. That swellow comment is just bad. You reversed your previous statement because you were proved false, and now you say that? Swellow is a very decent pokemon, and more than capable of taking out many OU pokemon. As also shown, Jolteon will not OHKO running Timid. A pokemon needs a minimum of 269 sp. atk using Ice Beam to OHKO Garchomp.

Please read the thread about the move before you comment further please.

(And actually, I am leaning towards Anti at the moment, we have shown how it can damage the metagame, but relying on having Sandstorm constantly means that it is almost always coupled with T-Tar/Hippowdon, and if not it isn't such a major threat.)


~T_S

 

[Aquilae]

Swords Dance takes a turn to setup, which gives the opponent a free turn to switchin their Garchomp counter or whatever.

Outrage is an all-out kamikaze move that locks Garchomp in making it susceptible to revenge kills.

By these two factors that supposedly make Garchomp uber, there are several weaknesses of using these two strategies that I outlined above and is stated in my previous posts and others.

Basically Yache is quite possibly the best item for Garchomp, it allows Garchomp to break walls and continue doing damage to the opposing team, easing the way for a sweep from another pokemon, and functions well lategame taking down threats handily.

@T_S

Garchomp does not need to run max speed to beat base 100s, but it has to run 240 speed and +nature, giving it an extra three HP points to add to its bulkiness.
Most Garchomps run Jolly 252 for other Garchomps.

Sandstorm is not the only way to use Garchomp reliably, otherwise everyone would be abusing Sand Veil. In my past teams, I used Garchomp without Sandstorm, although the added evasion is a bonus it isn't the main reason why I would use Garchomp.