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Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

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Well T_S, if Garchomp has to switch out, then it won't be doing so much damage :P You counter it if it switches out :P

Garchomp is a HUGE threat - we all agree with that. There are equally huge threats in OUs though, and the only thing Garchomp has over them is its ability.

Garchomp can rip through any team, but so can Azelf or Heracross or Raikou. The strongest OU sweepers can damage the metagame just like 'ol Garchomp can. I don't think Sand Veil is enough to push it over - quite frankly I think it's a totally overrated ability hyped only to unfairly push Garchomp into ubers.

As for Wobbuffet, can we just finally end the argument and put it in OUs now? If it was so "broken," it would have damaged the metagame a lot mroe than it has (and it hasn't at all). If you want to keep arguing about Garchomp, cool, but I think we should end Wobbuffet's argument now. No one has proven it's broken - granted, its potential upside is AWESOME, but not game-breaking or uber.
 
Finally, the weekend! I can spare some time to post.

First, nothing much have been said here. But I'll reply to the few post that I can actually answer.

To Aquallie, I do not think that having another Drougt or Drizzle poke would be overcentralizing. In fact, I think that only having Sandstream & Snow Warning is overcentralizing as it is. Kyogre & Groudon ar couped with stats & a movepool to complement said ability. I bet you would not have that theory if there was a Sunny Day/Rain Dance auto starter to begin with. As is, it is just a theory. We cannot say how game breaking it would be without one.


Second, to Anti, no, we can't just"drop it" & put him in OU. We have reasonable doubt. You don't think our points are good enough, & vice versa. So until we are ALL set, we can then drop it's place.


Outside of all this, I think it was his second paragragh that ruined the game as it is. I think we tore the game apart too much. I wouldn't mind Chomp in OU, but I do not care for his ability. Just because he isn't always ran in Sandstorm doesn't mean he isn't a hax God in there. And I am constantly losing due to hax (like BOTH counters getting crit'ed to death), along with Chomp loses due to that.
 
Aquillae said:
...as it would centralise the game around weather and how to counter it, and pokemon would be neglected as they cannot work effectively in weather conditions, or cannot counter the said threats.
...
Click to expand...

Please read my post about how an auto-weather pokemon would be overcentralising.

Your own bad luck does not carry over into the debate about Garchomp. It is not a "hax god" in there as you dexcribe it, 20% chance is still quite low, and Chomp does not have Super Luck, Stick or w/e that would increase the critical rate.

The tearing of the game apart is to create a balanced metagame where everything is more or less equal. I shall quote from the Official Nintendo Tournament:

https://showdown.pokemon.com

Rules said:
Pokémon Restrictions:

Players may use Pokémon found in the Pokémon Diamond and Pokémon Pearl National Dex, between 001 and 491, including those Pokémon imported from earlier video games, with the exception of those Pokémon listed below.
The following Pokémon are ineligible for use in the tournament:
  • 149 - Dragonite
  • 150 - Mewtwo
  • 151 - Mew
  • 248 - Tyranitar
  • 249 - Lugia
  • 250 - Ho-Oh
  • 251 - Celebi
  • 382 - Kyogre
  • 383 - Groudon
  • 384 - Rayquaza
  • 385 - Jirachi
  • 386 - Deoxys
  • 483 - Dialga
  • 484 - Palkia
  • 485 - Heatran
  • 486 - Regigigas
  • 487 - Giratina
  • 489 - Phione
  • 490 - Manaphy
  • 491 - Darkrai
Click to expand...

In the whole rules section, there is no mention of Sleep Clause and other stuff, meaning I could lead off with Dark Void Smeargle and a Fake-outer, just abuse Dark Void. I also could use a Skill Swap OHKO moves Smeragle with a No Guard Machamp, and other stuff. This would break the game as it becomes too easy/hard to win and the game would be centralised around these two strategies.

As you can see here, SIX pokemon which are allowed in normal play are banned:
Dragonite, Tyranitar. Celebi, Jirachi, Heatran, Regigigas

These pokemon are not considered Uber by any stretch, yet Nintendo regards them as Uber.

What I am saying is that the "tearing apart" of the game is necessary to create a balanced environment to battle.
 
Aquillae said:
Please read my post about how an auto-weather pokemon would be overcentralising.

Your own bad luck does not carry over into the debate about Garchomp. It is not a "hax god" in there as you dexcribe it, 20% chance is still quite low, and Chomp does not have Super Luck, Stick or w/e that would increase the critical rate.

The tearing of the game apart is to create a balanced metagame where everything is more or less equal. I shall quote from the Official Nintendo Tournament:

https://showdown.pokemon.com



In the whole rules section, there is no mention of Sleep Clause and other stuff, meaning I could lead off with Dark Void Smeargle and a Fake-outer, just abuse Dark Void. I also could use a Skill Swap OHKO moves Smeragle with a No Guard Machamp, and other stuff. This would break the game as it becomes too easy/hard to win and the game would be centralised around these two strategies.

As you can see here, SIX pokemon which are allowed in normal play are banned:
Dragonite, Tyranitar. Celebi, Jirachi, Heatran, Regigigas

These pokemon are not considered Uber by any stretch, yet Nintendo regards them as Uber.

What I am saying is that the "tearing apart" of the game is necessary to create a balanced environment to battle.
Click to expand...

Meh, nintendo don't see most of them as ubers. You know why Dragonite and T-tar are not allowed? Coz it's suppose to be L50, hence you can't get Nite/t-tar till L55. Therefore they are not allowed.
 
If you want to open Wobbuffet discussion, fine, but I want more points than "it is uncounterable! Shadow Tag!" because they are not viable.

Wobbuffet is weak defensively, no matter how you put it. With a normal EV spread (4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef), Wobbuffet manages 215 in both defenses and 522 HP. That is quite comparable to Snorlax, who has slightly more Def than Wobbuffet but less HP (but not by too much with some EVing). My point is, Wobbuffet takes hits from both sides of the spectrum at about the same rate as a Snorlax takes a physical hit. I think we all know that without a few curses, Snorlax cannot take physical hits. Period.

So really, Wobbuffet cannot take any boosted hit well (or to where it would be able to help the team it's on in any way). Any heavy hitter is going to massacre Wobbuffet unless it switches in on a choiced attack it resists (such as CB Weavile's Brick Break). You could say "well the Wobby user won't be stupid enough to switch it in on something that beats it" and you would be quite right. The only problem is that so many things CAN beat it.

So really, rather average defenses combined with all of the things that don't fear Wobbuffet, and I don't really see how it is uber. Let's look over those 3 criteria again, shall we?

- Over Centralization

Obviously wobbuffet doesn't over centralize anything.

- No Counters

While you cannot counter Wobbuffet by definition, its average stats make it vulnerable to powerful sweepers. Wobbuffet is predictable when it comes to its patterns switching in (and once again, it HAS to be) and you can predict its entrance. This will effectively beat Wobbuffet. Remember what doesn't fear Wobbuffet:

- Shed Shell users
- Anything with Toxic
- PHazers
- Anything that can kill it before Wobby can damage it (A LOT of things)
- Physical ghost-type attacker
- Special Dark-type attacker

We also must not forget what entry hazards (especially spikes and toxispikes) do to Wobby's effectiveness. Weather damage negates its leftovers recovery on top of that.

Also, one must not forget there are other OU pokemon you cannot counter by definition, and none of them are being sent packing to ubers.

- Luck

We all agree luck has nothing to do with it.

With that in mind, you really can't send Wobbuffet to ubers. Wobbuffet has few resistances that are worth anyhting to work off of and its stats are bad. Wave the "it has a chance at surviving a CBtar Crunch" at me, but Wobbuffet isn't going to be doing damage to any team at 5% health.

Also, for those who think Wobbuffet is "broken," I'd really like to know HOW it is broken. No counters? Look at the OU tier! Just look at Lucario...not one pokemon counters all of its sets. CB Machamp is uncounterable besides Weezing, and Gallade is the same way (only it beats Weezing). Salamence and Garchomp both possess an enormous threat and any switch-in is risky on the first turn they're out. Even Dugtrio and Magnezone have no counters if they come in on certain pokemon.

While Mence and Lucario's individual sets all have counters, switching in on the first turn is incredibly dangerous. Switch in Gliscor on SpecsLuke's HP Ice, and you're dead.

Shadow Tag? It's the only reason it IS uncounterable, which I explained above as being a common thing high OUs have (being uncounterable).

Encore, Counter, and Mirror Coat? Wobbuffet is going to have to survive two hits to use Counter or Mirror Coat, and three if it gets any bright ideas about Encoring. Chances are, Wobbuffet isn't going to be at full health either given all the entry hazards we see. but anyways, Wobbuffet's only REALLY threatening option is Encore, which is only good for setting up sweepers. This tactic is EXTREMELY useful, I'm not saying it isn't, as that's pretty much what Wobbuffet is used for. The problem is, if your sweeper is stopped (and Wobbuffet setting up a sweeper isn't game over like everybody says it is), Wobbuffet is about useless and at low health.

BellyZard is the funniest example, since bulky waters laugh in its face and thick fat pokemon like Hariyama do largely the same thing. As for other sweepers, they too are beatable. Wobbuffet really only buys them one turn to set up, which is easy to get (for example, switching an Azelf in on a turn Skarmory is roosting gives you a free turn to set up easily). In other words, Wobbuffet's upside is very good, but not absolutely amazing or uber by any stretch. If you want to disagree, please do give me an example of how Wobbuffet sets up a sweeper for a 6-0 sweep on a team with a counter for your sweeper. I doubt you can.

"If it comes in on Weavile throwing around CB Brick Breaks, it's screwed!"?

And if Dugtrio comes in on Raikou throwing around Thunderbolts, it is also screwed. My point is that Wobbuffet can nab surprise kills like that if hasn't been seen yet, like any trapper. If it HAS been seen, carelessly Brick Breaking is just a stupid move on your part, and being reckless yourself has nothing to do with how uber or OU wobbuffet is.

_________________________

So really, I don't see how you CAN call Wobbuffet uber. If you would like to disagree, I would appreciate you trying to argue with my argument as a whole as opposed to each individual point, since alone my points are easy to dissect. If you look at my main point, you will realize what I'm trying to say.

But just to review, let's look at our 3 favorite criteria ever:

- Over Centralization

It doesn't over centralize anything. Stats prove it.

- No Counters

While Wobbuffet has no counters, like any other trapper, it is incredibly easy to kill and it can't hurt decently-powered sweepers.

- Luck

lol

So please, I'd like to here why it is so "broken." I could name five OUs more broken than it is.
 
Don't forget the speedy version of Wobba + the Tickle strategy. That is more than enough to consider it Uber. Besides that, I wouldn't want a pokemon that practically beats the essence of choice items running around OU.
 
Syaoran said:
Don't forget the speedy version of Wobba + the Tickle strategy. That is more than enough to consider it Uber. Besides that, I wouldn't want a pokemon that practically beats the essence of choice items running around OU.
Click to expand...

Tickle Strategy? Please explain.

Also, any STAB choice move it doesn't resist pulverizes it. For example, a CBmence Dragon Claw murders it. Spikes/SR/weather damage also really hurts its ability to take hits repeatedly. It can take out a choiced pokemon using a move that it laughs at before it is revealed, but after that playing your move selection smartly prevents any real damage Wobbuffet can do. So if it takes one of your pokemon, you know it is around and you aren't going to fire off Brick Breaks randomly. This can hamper your sweeper's effectiveness to a degree, but it won't be doing damage to your team and your sweeper can still do damage.

I'm going to use a Dugtrio reference again...if you have something like a specs Heatran with HP Electric and it users it to hammer your Vaporeon, Dugtrio can pop up out of nowhere and take it out. After that though, any choice sweeper vulnerable to it isn't going to be firing off attacks it can come in on. Wobbuffet is more powerful than Dugtrio, but you cannoy overlook its average stats and lack of useful resistances (fighting being the only useful one really).
 
Simply put, the Wobbuffet Tickle strategy is this:

Wobbuffet @ Leftovers
Jolly, 128 Def/252 Speed/128 SpD
Tickle
Counter
Mirror Coat
Encore

Encore a damaging move, Counter/MC.
Encore a non-damaging move, Tickle x6 then switch to this:

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Adamant 252 Attack/258 whatever
Pursuit
filler
filler
filler

and Pursuit the fleeing thing to death. Pursuit almost OHKOs Skarm after -6 def, and max speed allows Wobb to lock a pokemon in a non-damaging move they performed.
 
Anti-Pop said:
Also, any STAB choice move it doesn't resist pulverizes it. For example, a CBmence Dragon Claw murders it. Spikes/SR/weather damage also really hurts its ability to take hits repeatedly. It can take out a choiced pokemon using a move that it laughs at before it is revealed, but after that playing your move selection smartly prevents any real damage Wobbuffet can do. So if it takes one of your pokemon, you know it is around and you aren't going to fire off Brick Breaks randomly. This can hamper your sweeper's effectiveness to a degree, but it won't be doing damage to your team and your sweeper can still do damage.

I'm going to use a Dugtrio reference again...if you have something like a specs Heatran with HP Electric and it users it to hammer your Vaporeon, Dugtrio can pop up out of nowhere and take it out. After that though, any choice sweeper vulnerable to it isn't going to be firing off attacks it can come in on. Wobbuffet is more powerful than Dugtrio, but you cannoy overlook its average stats and lack of useful resistances (fighting being the only useful one really).
Click to expand...

Except that, everything you just mentioned now is defeated by the purpose of using Wobba as a revenge killer. It might not be able to switch on a STAB'd move, but it can come afterwards and guarantee a kill. No, CB Mence doesn't 1HKO it.

I just had my first OU battle in ages in the offical shoddy server. Guess what? He led with Wobba. I have a Taunt-less Gyara, so I was forced to DD to avoid getting Encore-revenged with Counter. Later on the battle, he switched in Garchomp and it was locked on Outrage. I switched to my revenge killer Heatran to HP Ice it in time - a Yache berry and an Outrage crit got me to around 40%, but I still had the upper hand.. until Wobba showed up to revenge kill me! Easily shrugging off my HP Ice, Heatran got Mirror Coat'd. Dugtrio can't say the same about that. Most Heatran never carry HP electric, and if they do, they deserve to be trapped by Dugtrio. The point is, even if I used my strongest move - Fire Blast, Wobba will easily 1HKO me back. Ok.. so Wobba has about 87% after Stealth Rock. I send in my Tyranitar. CB Tyranitar. Crunch didn't even KO, and Wobba gets another revenge kill.

--

The Beauty of the Tickle set is that you don't need to sacrifice that much to make Wobba speedy - you just choose which side of the spectrum you want it to revenge kill (Physical or Special) and invest EVs in it.
 
Still have no idea what this tickle strategy is ._.

Wobbuffet sounds like a fun little revenge killer, but remember that your examples are for choice sweepers. The max amount of choice sweepers any team carries is 2 (and those with three deserved to be owned by Wobbuffet :P) Your example shows Wobbuffet is an awesome revenge killer for choice sweepers, probably the best in the game by a long shot. Still, after it gets a kill, you won't be trying to sweep randomly with a CBer.

For example, had your Heatran not been choiced and was an MS variant or something along those lines, chances are Wobbuffet isn't beating you too easily. Even if it does, it will certainly be in killing range, for say, your CB Tyranitar. My point is that it has a lot more trouble with stat-up sweepers than Choice ones.

I do appreciate an actual argument as opposed to "lol itz broken lol"

But can ya explain the Tickle strategy, because I've never heard of it 0_o
 
Anti, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think the tickle strategy is to invest Wobb with speed, Encore slow physical pokemon in a certain move, and then use Tickle to lower their attack and defensive stats down to the minimum possible. Then, you swap to Tyranitar (in this strategy), and use Pursuit, so, whether they swap out or not, they're pretty much dead unless it is resisted.

I think the only move that can OHKO the standard Wobb without setup is a Choice Banded Megahorn from Heracross or CB'd Explosions will take their toll.
 
I think Aquillae explained it very well. Wobba has no problem with stat uppers if it uses Encore in the right time. MS from Heatran can be Encore'd and then my opponent will switch to Dugtrio for a surefire 1HKO.
 
Why don't people tell me these things >_>

I'll have to rethink my entire thought process now =/ Great...especially since Wobbuffet can make use of Tickle.
 
Aquillae said:
Please read my post about how an auto-weather pokemon would be overcentralising.
Oh, I read it. And I still do not agree with what you have said. Plenty of pokemon do not funtion well in Sandstorm, nor does it traverse well in Hail, yet of course, those are allowed. All you are doing is proposing theories. I'm not going to jump and agree cause you said it. The same way Chomp is bought into discussion now, some long time into the game, just goes to show how much it cannot be outright predicted as such. Anti was all for Wobbo & Chomp being uber, but he suddenly changed his mind. Whose to say they couldn't balance weather starters out in a way? They made the main Sandstorm pokes very bulky, & giving it to two pokes (& Ttar, which I don't agree with), so Sandstorm is very easy to use, making all other weather obsolete.

Your own bad luck does not carry over into the debate about Garchomp. It is not a "hax god" in there as you describe it, 20% chance is still quite low, and Chomp does not have Super Luck, Stick or w/e that would increase the critical rate.
Yes, it actually does. If that is the case, why not allow items like Bright Powder on every team? Along with the fact that Brigh Powder is on many Chomps, despite it being hax. I don't want a roll of a die to ruin my revenge sweeper which happens to be one of the few ways to beat it.
The tearing of the game apart is to create a balanced metagame where everything is more or less equal. I shall quote from the Official Nintendo Tournament:

https://showdown.pokemon.com



In the whole rules section, there is no mention of Sleep Clause and other stuff, meaning I could lead off with Dark Void Smeargle and a Fake-outer, just abuse Dark Void. I also could use a Skill Swap OHKO moves Smeragle with a No Guard Machamp, and other stuff. This would break the game as it becomes too easy/hard to win and the game would be centralised around these two strategies.

As you can see here, SIX pokemon which are allowed in normal play are banned:
Dragonite, Tyranitar. Celebi, Jirachi, Heatran, Regigigas

These pokemon are not considered Uber by any stretch, yet Nintendo regards them as Uber.

What I am saying is that the "tearing apart" of the game is necessary to create a balanced environment to battle.
Click to expand...
I know why we are tearing the dang game apart. Jesus. That is why there is a tier thread. I cannot believe I have to explain what I said.

sims796 said:
I play pokemon. I am a strong believer & hax items, moves, clauses, & tiers. If I wasn't, I could own the game with this

Deoxys (Defense)
Nature:Bold
Cosmic Power
Recover
Toxic
Double Team
EV:252 HP, Split Def & SP.DEF

With a few Cosmic Powers, I am basically invurenuable. With Double Team, I am untouchable. Even if you do hit me, which, when I have all 6 DT, is less than 30%, it will do little damage. Plus, when after 20 minutes and I'm finally weakened, I can just use Recover. Now I am invincible. Plus, I still have five other pokes--one of them is another Deoxys just like this, since there is no species clause.
Click to expand...

Just an example of what I said earlier. But what I am saying is, how far is too much? Personally, I'd really like Garchomp in OU (the whole reason I put Dragon Claw on Sceptile, but never get a chance to use it), but I am seeing no real viable reason. Same with Wobby.

And um, Anti? Other than Tickle, we used that exact same argument a few times. What the hell do you mean, "no actual argument"?
 
"No actual argument" would be the several "Wobby is broken" things I've seen. Even if Wobbuffet IS uber, it certainly isn't broken. Garchomp isn't a hax god. Most of the time Sand Veil doesn't even activate, and when it does it isn't even a "my team is going to be swept" kind of thing.

I've been reading on Smogon A LOT the past few days about this tier mumbo jumbo and I pretty much think the following:

We NEED a definition of ubers that is as objective as possible. for example, Garchomp would be OU without Sand Veil for sure, and measuring just how good that 20% chance of a miss is makes this too opinion-based. We're never going to agree if that is the case. We need something that clearly defines a pokemon as uber or non-uber that is as objective as possible, or else the arguing will not get anywhere and will never stop. Until that happens, I think any arguing is pretty much useless.

I think in some ways that is impossible to achieve since you can't really measure the value of these abilities, or a lot of other things for that matter. For example, the "no counters" thing is very tough to measure...sort of. You know counters, but it doesn't really measure "uberness" or "uberocity." For example, Dugtrio and Magnezone are technically "uncounterable" when they come in on certain pokemon, but they obviously aren't uber or even that feared.

Even over centralization is a bit shaky since it could be what pokemon are used, or moves, or even EV spreads.

Basically saying what the guys at Smogon explained >_> It does ring true though...the formula for ubers is still subjective to a certain degree, and that means that we will never agree or even come close. Look it up on Smogon's forums, as they explain it better than I do.

EDIT: In other words, I don't really know what to think anymore about anything besides Speed Deoxys (lol).

I'm just going to drop out of this discussion with this:

The no counters argument is overused and pathetic (though you could make an exception with Wobbuffet because it's so unique). I read an example on Smogon and you should probably hear it. Lucario has no counters that counter all of its sets, and neither does Garchomp. If you use the no counters argument only, you should be asking for other pokemon to be banned as well. If you're talking about individual sets, then both Garchomp and Lucario are counterable. In Garchomp's case, Skarm and Bronzong counter the choice sets, Cress counters SD sets (and waters and Mesprit to a slightly lesser extent), and Chain Chomp is countered by what the SDer is.

In other words, I think the no counters argument needs to go away.

EDIT 2: We essentially are wanting Garchomp to be uber because of Sand Veil, but how good that ability is is so subjective that we can't really agree or make a decision on it.

We might as well let players individually allow or disallow the use of Wobby and Garchomp, and ban both in tournaments (as it's the only fair way of doing things).

We need to come to some kind of resolution (the above is an example, and one I think would work). That doesn't mean we agree on their status, but that we take some kind of action to make both sides happy until we can really prove that they are uber or OU (IF that happens).

With that in mind, I support what I mentioned above, which is players individually allowing or disallowing both pokemon, and banning both for tournaments. I think that it is fair and should work...on paper at least.
 
Last edited:
Anti-Pop said:
"No actual argument" would be the several "Wobby is broken" things I've seen. Even if Wobbuffet IS uber, it certainly isn't broken. Garchomp isn't a hax god. Most of the time Sand Veil doesn't even activate, and when it does it isn't even a "my team is going to be swept" kind of thing.
Actually, "the Wobby is broken" thing was backed up, and is the whole point in talking about it. It certainly wouldn't fly in uber, and the only way it would go there if it was too broken for OU hing is, he reasons we gave, valid as they are, weren't good enough for you, (& Aqua) and that isn't exacly kosher. Now that you learn it has Tickle, and syoran gave out some points (that was given a few times over & over again), you start giving it some consideration? And didn't you say that if you miss, you lose, a couple of times?

Anti-Pop said:
IMO the biggest thing against Garchomp is Sand Veil. Otherwise, I think it would be hands-down OU. when you miss, you lose. Otherwise, beating Garchomp isn't so hard.

Just thought I'd point that out.
Click to expand...
I've been reading on Smogon A LOT the past few days about this tier mumbo jumbo and I pretty much think the following:

We NEED a definition of ubers that is as objective as possible. for example, Garchomp would be OU without Sand Veil for sure, and measuring just how good that 20% chance of a miss is makes this too opinion-based. We're never going to agree if that is the case. We need something that clearly defines a pokemon as uber or non-uber that is as objective as possible, or else the arguing will not get anywhere and will never stop. Until that happens, I think any arguing is pretty much useless.
Which leads to my next point...
I think in some ways that is impossible to achieve since you can't really measure the value of these abilities, or a lot of other things for that matter. For example, the "no counters" thing is very tough to measure...sort of. You know counters, but it doesn't really measure "uberness" or "uberocity." For example, Dugtrio and Magnezone are technically "uncounterable" when they come in on certain pokemon, but they obviously aren't uber or even that feared.
...what exactlymeasures this sort of thing? You gotta admit this--we were certainly trying to eliminate almost all forms of luck, but this is ok? As I said, you say that a 20% chance isn't all to scary, yet on the Garchomp thread, you said the opposite so many times, it's not even funny. When Aqua said that my hax can't be used for discussion, I said, "how dare he?". Not that I was insulted, but who merits 20% as game-breaking, or simply not worthy of fear? I say it is, you say it's not.
Even over centralization is a bit shaky since it could be what pokemon are used, or moves, or even EV spreads.

Basically saying what the guys at Smogon explained >_> It does ring true though...the formula for ubers is still subjective to a certain degree, and that means that we will never agree or even come close. Look it up on Smogon's forums, as they explain it better than I do.
Click to expand...

You said it perfectly. And that is what irritates me the most. We cannot fairly decide what is uber, at least with something this fickle. When you said "no real argument", you proved that. Are our points that we've made not good enough? Yet, Tickle is enough? What you & Aqua said isn't law, either. What makes the things me & Dark said not viable? We feel they are, you feel they don't. My main point is, there are two sides of the spectrum. We feel that what you say isn't good enough, & vice versa. Not that I am saying that you were directly doing that, however. But when you said things like "Can we just make it OU? There are no real arguments" is pretty annoying, and arguments breaks out.



EDIT:Syoran said the exact same thing,--and YOU said those exact same things--that we have been saying. Now why is it viable? Because it's points that rolls with you.

We need a clear definition. And I need to finish my homework & sharpen my knives.
 
PC refused to work earlier, but here's my copied and pasted response:

Most people who said "WOMG WOBBUFFET IWS BROKEN 111111" did not back it up. Some of you did, but certainly not everybody. I think the Tickle argument is very viable, but interesting legality issues are going on with that set. I don't think that "no counters" is a very good argument considering the number of high OUs that can't be countered and how being uncounterable isn't the same as unbeatable.

It's not necessarily a flaw in your argument, but perhaps the system we argue under. Also, read both of my edits. I think we need to make a resolution because arguing is going nowhere and it isn't going somewhere anytime soon.
 
I originally posted this as a message on Anti-Pop's profile, but I feel that my argument would be better placed here.

I never had a major problem with Chomp and Wobbuffet, and to a lesser extent other powerful sweepers like Mamoswine on some of my teams. The definition of counter is archaic and in my opinion does not have any real importance in the D/P metagame. It would not work for D/P simply because of the increased number of pokemon and the sheer versatility that they have.
Is Gyarados a Lucario counter? What if it has HP Electric? This manner of discussing pokemon is not achieving anything, the correct way to counter a pokemon is to simply play around it. So what if Garchomp has no true counter? You could always switch out to a Steel-type on Outrage, sacrifice a pokemon to revenge-kill it, etc.
A team also needs to have a way of dealing with Garchomp in the first place, be it Ice Beam or Ice Shard, or a Scarfer. The most important thing to avoid is to create a team that has a huge weakness, Dragonite/Sala/Flygon/Chomp/Gliscor/Suicune is still Mamo weak as 5/6ths of it is slaughtered by Mamo.

What a team needs is not a counter, but a "check".
I heard the term "check" mentioned first by Maniaclyracist on Smogon, it is basically a pokemon that can revenge-kill the said pokemon, can't switchin on all its attacks BUT can switchin on some.
If I named a check for Garchomp, it would probably be Jumpluff, an example first quoted by Bologo on Smogon.
Simply a Jumpluff with Encore/Sleep Powder/U-turn can switchin on Earthquake and Swords Dance, Encore and U-turn. It can't switchin on Outrage which does not make it a true counter.



Somehow it seems that people are voting to ban every Uber that would be balanced in OU. I saw a Darkrai discussion recently, and it seems that one of the major points is that it is useless with Sleep Clause and an inferior/similar Gengar.
I won't make a tl;dr paragraph on this, but just to mention Darkrai has 125 Base speed and around the same defenses as Spiritomb and no Pursuit weakness. Bad Dreams means 12.5% damage from every sleep absorber that switches in. Taunt stops them in their tracks.

What would happen next? Deoxys-F being argued for unbanning because "Lucario/Mamoswine/Metagross beat it with priority moves"? This seems rather frivolous.

To quote two posts made by Aldaron and MoP (Aeroblacktyl) on the Darkrai topic on Smogon:

Aldaron said:
I don't want Darkrai in my OU metagame.

Just because.

I don't.
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Aeroblacktyl said:
I think we were fine before we readded any ubers. I think we'll be fine if we hadn't. But at this rate seriously someone will somehow logically bring up that we should unban regular Deoxys. Just let it be. =/
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