Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

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By that logic, Bright Powder should be allowed.

Yes, I caught that error in what I said, which is why I rephrased it. Still, point taken, which brings me once again back to my original idea:

Me said:
...You know what, what if we did something similar to what Lati@s was in ADV: if the player also has a Sand Stream/Sandstorm user, Garchomp is Uber. If not, then it's just OU.



(Side note: Please do not let me keep you from getting some sleep.)
 
Naw, my family woke me for nonsense like "come to the ATM machine".

But anywho, I'm not sure that would fly. Well, until one of the mods pops up, we will probably se a change. I like Chomp. LIEK HIM ALOTS. And I've included a counter just for him, hate for it to go to waste.

But yeah, I'll type more after a morning nap.
 
I'm going to make one big U-turn and argue for Wobbuffet in Ubers. Sorry Anti =D

Well at first I thought Wobbuffet deserved to be in OU, since it was clearly not used and didn't centralise anything. But after reading a few posts in the Policy Review, namely Earthworm's posts (can't remember more since Smogon is down) I was convinced that Wobbuffet should stay in Uber.

The statistics cannot be relied on to gauge Wobbuffet's tier position, as it can't overcentralise anything as many players are not willing to take drastic measures to defeat Wobbuffet, and are not going to slap U-turn/Baton Pass/Shed Shell on every pokemon. Thus I feel that these statistics cannot correctly analyse Wobbuffet and it should be taken as an exception.

The difference between Wobbuffet and other trappers is that, barring stat differences and typing, is that Wobbuffet effectively restricts the opponent's choice of moves from Five (Attack/Attack/Attack/Attack/Switch) to one with Encore (Attack) while the other pokemon only reduce it to four (Attack/Attack/Attack/Attack). This allows Wobbuffet to use its two reflecting moves - Counter and Mirror Coat to great effect, and allows Wobbuffet to PP stall most pokemon with IPL's JollyWobbuffet strategy, or it can allow Wobbuffet to Tickle a pokemon to -6 and send in an opposing trapperpsuedotrapper, or allow Wobbuffet to create setups.

The main issue is that Wobbuffet restricting the opponent's choice of moves, and by the above two JollyWobb tactics effectively eliminate almost every slow wall in the game, i.e. any wall that cannot outrun it, Bronzong and Blissey prime examples.

IPL's JollyWobb strategy involves sending Wobbuffet into a wall, then Encoring whatever move it does or Safeguarding to protect against status, then use Safeguard to stall said opponent out of PP, until it is forced to use an attacking move which results in death via Counter/Mirror Coat, or simply forcing the opposing pokemon to use Struggle.
TickleWobb strategy involves the same thing, but basically after Encoring the user then Tickles or Counter/Mirror Coats, depending on the situation. Main differences from this strategy to the previous one include:

  • The first using significantly more PP than the second
  • The second lacking Safeguard which protects against status
  • The second requiring a trapper/psuedotrapper to function
In both cases since Wobbuffet is faster it would be able to refresh Encore as and when it likes.

The strength of these strategies is further compounded by the fact that Wobbuffet can come in at any time and poses an immediate threat to any wall regardless, there exists a move named Wish which heals Wobbuffet's health, and two others named Aromatherapy and Heal Bell which heals status.

Wobbuffet cannot be countered. Period.
Almost any wall it comes in on instantly falls/gets made setup fodder with any of the strategies.

Therefore I find it neccessary to ban Wobbuffet to Ubers - it cannot be analysed by using pure statistics and theorymon.

Note: Somewhat minor, but Trace pokemon no longer counter Wobbuffet due to the changing of Arena Trap. Instead Wobbuffet can escape and no longer be forced into setup fodder by Gardevoir/Porygon2/ other Trace pokemon that I forgot.

The only 100% check (NOT counter) against Wobbuffet would be a Toxic Dugtrio which eliminates Wobbuffet without fear of being PP stalled and Encored.


I think the same thing applies to Garchomp, so far all that the theorymon does is making us run round in circles in my opinion.
 
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I have no experience battling a jolly Wobbuffet ._.

Like I said earlier, I'm 50/50 on everything now haha. But with all these Tickle sets and Jolly sets and all this crap I've totally never heard of until recently, I really couldn't care less if Wobbuffet is uber or not. Especially since our definition for ubers is still really shaky.

As for Garchomp, until it over centralizes something, I really don't think we should shoot it to ubers. It's obviously the most powerful sweeper in the game (yeah, I said that Gengar!), but it doesn't over centralize and a good majority of its sets can be countered, and those that are "uncounterable" can be compared to other high OUs.

Wobbuffet is a totally different scenario since its uncounterability, or whatever you want to call it, is because of an ability and a movepool TOTALLY unique. If it were just the Wobbuffet in Smogon's analysis, I would say it's OU. This tickle thing really has me wondering and this new "jolylwobb" pretty much has scared me =D

At this point I'll concede it's probably uber, but for something as unique and strange as Wobbuffet is, I'm still withholding my judgment here.

But Garchomp isn't like Wobbuffet. Here's what I want...just keep the tiers the same. Keep Wobbuffet in ubers and Garchomp in OUs. Until Garchomp over centralizes the metagame, I don't think it should be banned to ubers. I really doubt Garchomp would be nearly as controversial without Sand Veil, which bothers me since it's very haxy and doesn't activate like people say it does (for me anyways).

But yeah, barring Speed Deoxys, let's just keep the tiers the same and leave it be. If something is "uber" enough to over centralize the metagame, we can ban it. Until it does, I think whatever it is should be OU.

...That and we STILL don't have a great definition of uber. I kidna think it should just be how much it over centralizes something, but that too is really controversial.

So yeah. I have lost track of new Wobbuffet sets lol

EDIT: That and I'm totally outnumbered on Wobbuffet, and with all these sets, I don't have a good enough argument and I'd be wasting my time and your time. haha
 
While we're on the subject of Wobb, what would happen to him if Tickle were to be banned (under the possible Event Move clause/ mass banning)? It sounds like TickleWobb is his scariest set- if that set were to become banned, how would he be placed?
 
My own opinion on Garchomp is that it doesn't overcentralize, I've seen it on a majority of the teams I've faced and the most it's done is force a switch, ironically, to my hippowdon which is able to 1HKO it with ice fang, even with the veil boost and the shacky accuracy it will still get hit a majority of the time
 
There would be still a viable strategy as I mentioned in my first post - IPL's JollyWobb, PP wasting with Encore. Tickle would not change Wobbuffet much.

@ above poster

Hippowdon needs Choice Band to even stand a chance of OHKOing Garchomp with Ice Fang.
 
Either I inspire people to post stuff or people hate me, haha

I haven't battled on the official in awhile, besides when my alt. account decides to work, so these new Wobby developments mean I about give up on its OUness (lol). Considering I never use it or face it, put it in ubers for all I care :P This jollywobb sounds scary though, and considering I still run majority stall teams, I might actually support this one :0

Still think Garchomp is OU, even though I doubt Ice Fang will be OHKOing Garchomp ._. Even then, it's hard to tell with our really shaky uber definition (as it is controversial), so I suggest we just drop it and leave the tiers be until we can accurately measure if Garchomp is good enough (or over centralizing enough) to be banned. I certainly don't think so, but that's the problem - it's objective in a pretty big way.

But eh, Jolly Wobbuffet sounds too powerful for my stall teams, so out of my own selfish nature (:P) I might as well jump on the bandwagon. I still don't think either one is "ZOMG BROKENz0rz!!!!!!" because even if both are uber, it's close enough that we're debating it, after all.
 
Hippowdon needs Choice Band to even stand a chance of OHKOing Garchomp with Ice Fang.



Mine has 1HKO'd 2 of them at least and the rest it takes huge chunks out of



I just did a damage calc. and a 0 IV/EV hippo with a neutral nature will do at least 55% to a 31 IV 0 EV neutral garchomp and my hippo has much higher than 0 IV as well as some attack EVs invested so it's totally possible for a 1HKO
 
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Standard Hippowdon

31/31/31/31/31/31

Standard Garchomp

31/31/31/31/31/31
4 HP

capiche?

Hippowdon switching onto SDChomp = death to Hippo as SD Outrage 2HKOes it easily - it can't KO back with Ice Fang.

Switching in another pokemon that can stand a chance of OHKOing Garchomp - Cresselia or Swampert for instance - is arguably a better way of dealing with SDChomp.

Overcentralise =/= too powerful
 
lol so, Ooka has moved Garchomp back to OU! Does that mean I could use him again on PC forum? =D
 
With May usage statistics out, I think we should iron out OU and BL here. Here is unweighted usage:

Garchomp (42139 usages) 1
Gengar (35712 usages)
Blissey (34844 usages)
Gyarados (31594 usages)
Tyranitar (31091 usages)
Bronzong (29681 usages)
Lucario (26596 usages)
Heatran (24325 usages)
Infernape (22927 usages)
Salamence (22649 usages) 10
Metagross (21948 usages)
Starmie (21344 usages)
Gliscor (19725 usages)
Celebi (19303 usages)
Swampert (17907 usages)
Weavile (17274 usages)
Skarmory (17083 usages)
Forretress (16339 usages)
Heracross (15455 usages)
Vaporeon (14110 usages) 20
Zapdos (13389 usages)
Azelf (13132 usages)
Togekiss (12624 usages)
Cresselia (12425 usages)
Magnezone (10991 usages)
Electivire (10972 usages)
Dusknoir (10737 usages)
Machamp (10446 usages)
Breloom (10418 usages)
Jirachi (10195 usages) 30
Suicune (10177 usages)
Snorlax (10020 usages)
Yanmega (9602 usages)
Scizor (9420 usages)
Hippowdon (9330 usages)
Jolteon (9024 usages)
Ninjask (8925 usages)
Milotic (8919 usages)
Tentacruel (8779 usages)
Deoxys-e (8395 usages) 40
Mamoswine (7932 usages)
Dragonite (7867 usages)
Porygonz (7646 usages)
Dugtrio (7610 usages)
Donphan (7383 usages)
Roserade (7117 usages)
Wobbuffet (6546 usages)
Spiritomb (6353 usages)
Gallade (6032 usages)
Alakazam (6019 usages) 50
Abomasnow (5752 usages)
Kingdra (5631 usages)
Umbreon (5415 usages)
Empoleon (5391 usages)
Charizard (5352 usages)
Mismagius (5083 usages)
Weezing (4778 usages)
Crobat (4313 usages)
Rhyperior (4269 usages)
Froslass (4267 usages) 60
Slowbro (3800 usages)
Tangrowth (3791 usages)
Smeargle (3653 usages)
Sceptile (3644 usages)
Aerodactyl (3613 usages)
Steelix (3471 usages)
Uxie (3217 usages)
Arcanine (3202 usages)
Staraptor (3123 usages)
Ambipom (3004 usages) 70

-----------------

The rest of the list I'm not really gonna post since those are all BL or UU. Basically I'm saying that we should pick a number where everything used more than that pokemon is OU and everything else banned from UUs will be BL.

I'm sure Smogon has that number, but I r=don't really know. either way, given those stats, we should probably change OU/BL accordingly.
 
NU tier?

Has the NU tier died?

I cannot seem to find a DPP NU tier list. Even Smogon lists the old NU Pokemon as UU.

Have the new moves/abilities killed the NU tier?

And if not, where can I find a list of Pokemon from that tier?
 
NU tier has been condensed into UU. It was never really a tier anyway, unless you lass two magicarp equivilants flaling at each other for a few turns. So the remotely usable ones have been put into UU but most people have the common sense not to use them at all.
 
While what Gofre said is true, there's still a possibility of they stabilishing a NU tier.
But it's Smogon's priority to first stabilish a stable OU and UU enviroments, so that may take a while.

edit; Also, I disagree with the "most people have the common sense not to use them at all". I'm an UU player, and I use Masquerain, Mothim and Carnivine with great success, and have used stuff like Kecleon and Lumineon to an extent.
 
I agree with the above two posts but i don't really see any use for an NU tier anyway. Even if no one is using certain pokemon in the uu tier what does it matter. uber keeps pokemon deemed to powerful out of OU, BL keeps pokemon that are to strong out of UU, but what does NU do? keep the weaker pokemon out of UU? There is no real use for an NU tier unless u wanted to have an NU battle. and NU isn't really a metagame that gets to much use anyway. So to answer your question NU hasn't died there will always be pokemon that most people don't use but it is not in top prority for smogon or anyother site for that matter to establish a tier that doesn't often see play.
 
While what Gofre said is true, there's still a possibility of they stabilishing a NU tier.
But it's Smogon's priority to first stabilish a stable OU and UU enviroments, so that may take a while.

edit; Also, I disagree with the "most people have the common sense not to use them at all". I'm an UU player, and I use Masquerain, Mothim and Carnivine with great success, and have used stuff like Kecleon and Lumineon to an extent.

The NU tier has been and gone, I doubt it will come back again. Oh and iirc none of those pokes were ever NU.
 
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