Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource

[Dark Azelf]

wait, so whatever happened to chomp? xD

is he all uber and stuffz o.o?

Yep, pretty much. It got banned officially.

 

[Samson]

keke i can live with that, especially when i haven't played in, well, almost a year o.o

 

[マツバ]

As for Chomp, well, you're not a noob, so whatever...

My favorite quote of the entire year. ^_^

Also, I agree he's not broken, but still a top tier force, as always. Although I rather enjoyed Tangerine's thread there, that's your opinion, and no reason for me to counter it. (Lame pun)

wait, so whatever happened to chomp? xD

is he all uber and stuffz o.o?

Yup, locked away to uber land.

edit: Beaten... badly.

 

[sims796]

Yup, locked away to uber land.

edit: Beaten... badly.

More like gotten your ass kicked by three other posts.

But yeah,he's gone, and so is his little "best pogeyman EVAR" tyraid. He took the honorable path, much better than Hitler.

 

[.]

I don't. It is Stealth Rock weak, it takes damage from Sandstorm, it lacks a fudgin' base One-O-2 -I mean seriously, WTF- base Speed, more fragile, while retaining Ice weakness, et-certera, et-cetera.

Um, more fragile? Slightly, at best. It also has Intimidate, making tank sets more easy to use.

That means, due to prediction of the future metagame alone, it would serve to play as either an early game behemoth, or a late game sweeper, after all counters have been significantly weakend. It has a somewhat limited switching ability, and it lacks the proper sheer power of Chomp -it must dance twice to avoid wreckage, and every time it charges up, it gains an additional risk of a Gyro Ball up the vage.

Um...Gyro Ball? ._. And I assure you; a single DD Salamence is more than enough to tear a whole into a lot of things that don't resist its moveset (which is nothing, besides Skarm lol)

Not to mention it lacks a cheap ability, and it doesn't gain STAB Earthquake.

But it also has Intimidate, the ability to DD, and Roost, making it more able to become bulky.

I'm seeing some great Mixed Dragonite sets, that I may use in the near future. Or distant future, I don't like shoddy. My emeniez are there o.O

Nite's gonna be outclassed as a pure DDer, AND as a pure CBer now. It's new upgrades mean nothing if it's slower, and lacks Intimidate.

It gains SuperPower, something Mence would love for his mixed sets. I feel Mence is being hyped a tad too much. As I said before, people liakz Dragonite. If it gets outclassed, people will work on other ways to make it more useful. Super Power aids this goal.

Yay. Lowering your attack every turn so you have to switch out!

 

[sims796]

Um, more fragile? Slightly, at best. It also has Intimidate, making tank sets more easy to use.

No, not slighly. It has more HP, and more Defense AND Sp.Def. It is also immune to pralysis.

Um...Gyro Ball? ._. And I assure you; a single DD Salamence is more than enough to tear a whole into a lot of things that don't resist its moveset (which is nothing, besides Skarm lol)

Yes, Gyro Ball. The more you boost, the more damage it causes. Salamence's Attack power is only what, three points away? Garchomp barely 2HKO's his opponents with one Swords Dance. One sinngle attack boost doesn't have the pure destructive power.

But it also has Intimidate, the ability to DD, and Roost, making it more able to become bulky.

And? What has that got to do with it being uber because of Outrage? It cannot effectively rely on Roost to heal, while boosting power to lock itself into Outrage.

Nite's gonna be outclassed as a pure DDer, AND as a pure CBer now. It's new upgrades mean nothing if it's slower, and lacks Intimidate.

I did not say anything about the pure DDer, nor did I mention anything about Choice Band.

Yay. Lowering your attack every turn so you have to switch out!

That is why a mixed set may serve more justice. It oly lokwers attack, while taking advantage of his vast movepool.

The fact is, it is in no way the same league as Chomp. It does not have a haxy ability. It has tons of weaknesses, along with a Stealth Rock weak. It takes damage from Sandstorm, limiting it's survival even more. It is not hard to wall, especially after it uses Dragon Dance. It does not have a STAB in EQ It's been said three times by three different people. Just because it has Outrage, doesn't mean that it will be the next Chomp.Not by a long shot.

 

[.]

No, not slighly. It has more HP, and more Defense AND Sp.Def. It is also immune to pralysis.

After Intimidate, it does not have more Defense "in a sense" Garchomp's only real noticable advantage is in HP, which it hardly ever uses.

Yes, Gyro Ball. The more you boost, the more damage it causes. Salamence's Attack power is only what, three points away? Garchomp barely 2HKO's his opponents with one Swords Dance. One sinngle attack boost doesn't have the pure destructive power.

Define "barely" And with a DD, it outspeeds a host of threats, making it instantly more dangerous; regardless if it hits weaker.

And? What has that got to do with it being uber because of Outrage? It cannot effectively rely on Roost to heal, while boosting power to lock itself into Outrage.

Roost off SR and LO Recoil after done Outraging. Assuming confusion doesn't nip your ass.

I did not say anything about the pure DDer, nor did I mention anything about Choice Band.

So...Mix sets? MixMence is pretty damn popular from what I've seen, and the increases SpA (though minor) as well as the ability to live physical hits easier and outspeed more things makes Mence a lot more easy to use.

That is why a mixed set may serve more justice. It oly lokwers attack, while taking advantage of his vast movepool.

Read above.

The fact is, it is in no way the same league as Chomp. It does not have a haxy ability. It has tons of weaknesses, along with a Stealth Rock weak.

"Tons of weaknesses" Abomasnow has "tons of weaknesses" Saying that about Salamence is false. Rock, Ice, and Dragon is not a ton of weaknesses. SR does hurt it, I agree there, but its pros outweigh the cons here.

It takes damage from Sandstorm, limiting it's survival even more. It is not hard to wall, especially after it uses Dragon Dance.

I don't think 6% per turn will really make that much of a difference. And after a DD, Outrage will 2HKO Cresselia. You're right, what pathetic power.

It does not have a STAB in EQ It's been said three times by three different people. Just because it has Outrage, doesn't mean that it will be the next Chomp.Not by a long shot.

STAB EQ is important, I agree, but it has a lot of other options. It can pull off Mixed sets, Dragon Dance, Roost, use Intimidate, heck, it becomes harder to revenge kill thanks to DD's increase.

 

[sims796]

After Intimidate, it does not have more Defense "in a sense" Garchomp's only real noticable advantage is in HP, which it hardly ever uses.

And what about before Intimidate? What if it is already out? It''s ability is not haxy at all. Garchomps defences are 108/95/85. Salamence is 95/80/80. It has notciably inferior defences.

Define "barely" And with a DD, it outspeeds a host of threats, making it instantly more dangerous; regardless if it hits weaker.

After a DD, it is still beat by Deo, and Ice Shard'll always do it in. As it has less power than Chomp after Dragon Dance, it is easier to come in during an Outrage, and even more easier to revenge kill, since the collateral damage of Stealth Rock & Sandstorm takes its toll.

Roost off SR and LO Recoil after done Outraging. Assuming confusion doesn't nip your ass.

What?! Do you really think it'll be that easy? Or do you think that it'll have the time to do all that, given his survivability using that set? It leaves him wide open to revenge kills. He cannot afford to try Roosting after Outrage, as even Donphan will wipe him out.

So...Mix sets? MixMence is pretty damn popular from what I've seen, and the increases SpA (though minor) as well as the ability to live physical hits easier and outspeed more things makes Mence a lot more easy to use.

And we are assuming that this is Platinum. Mix Sets won't se as popular, and with Super Power to better eliminate Blissey and the likes, Dragonite may be able to pull it off better.

"Tons of weaknesses" Abomasnow has "tons of weaknesses" Saying that about Salamence is false. Rock, Ice, and Dragon is not a ton of weaknesses. SR does hurt it, I agree there, but its pros outweigh the cons here.

Ok. Rock, Ice, Dragon, and Ground are the most popular moves in the entire game. U=If it even hopes to do damage, it needs Life Orb, so unlike Chomp, it retains Ice. Rock, which Chomp lacks, is a very serious weakness. That means he is Stealth Rock weak, he is taking damage from Sand Storm, and after an Outrage, he is getting swapped in on by the likes of Gyarados. Hell, Gyarados has each & every one of his weaknesses.

I don't think 6% per turn will really make that much of a difference. And after a DD, Outrage will 2HKO Cresselia. You're right, what pathetic power.

But it won't take out Bronzong. Nor Skarmory. Nor any other steel that switches in. 6% per turn (meaning you'll have to charge up, then use Outrage) will defiately add up, anyone can tell you that.

STAB EQ is important, I agree, but it has a lot of other options. It can pull off Mixed sets, Dragon Dance, Roost, use Intimidate, heck, it becomes harder to revenge kill thanks to DD's increase.

Just because it has various uses, doesn't mean it's uber. This isn't a question of "Salamence is just as good as Chomp, maybe better", it's a question on whether Outrage makes him uber. That is clearly not the case.

 

[Samson]

salamence with outrage hardly changes anything, gotta be honest. physical scarf and band sets will be able to achieve more but that's about it. the immediate tradeoff between dragon claw and outrage is a lot more beneficial to something like garchomp who not only has swords dance, but has hax on his side.

salamence has always been hot sauce due to his flexibility, but he's all taco bell mild.

 

[Aquilae]

What would Luke with Ice Punch change? Luke already has HP Ice to get past Gliscor and with SD / ES / CC it can't use Crunch / Stone Edge that would debiliate most of its counters anyway. HP Ice Luke has been present since early DP so it won't be too hard to deal with Ice Punch Luke.

 

[Samson]

well, for one, i think ice punch as a tutor move is more rational than the reliance of hp. regardless, ice punch along with swords dance gives it the power to do more damage to a larger variety of pokes who are quite unaffected by lucario's hp ice. only downside of ice punch is the lack of the element of surprise when using hp ice against a nuetral damage poke for the kill.

i'm just saying that while elemental punches won't significantly make lucario anymore of a powerhouse, they do make it more capable in battle.

 

[Aquilae]

I only see Ice Punch being of use against Gliscor and Zapdos both which HP Ice dents significantly already. Ice Punch is a weak 75 BP move (resisted CC does more, and ES also does more), and I don't consider it a notable addition to its movepool.

 

[Archer]

Basically what it can hit, HP Ice hits already. Keep in mind Mence is faster, so you would only use ES/BP anyway.

I am still unsure of the Mence/Outrage issue. Looks a bit too gutsy at the moment. Although the power drop from DD can only be compensated by LO, which makes it far easier to revenge. You also have a 100% chance of hitting.

Still not sure.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Abomasnow : - OU or BL ?

Deoxys (Speed) : - This is up for discussion for OU or Uber since the new creation of the "dual screen" set. Which causes most people grief.

Donphan : - Up for discussion for OU or BL i feel.

Dusknoir : - Read Above

Electivire : - Do i even need to say anything lol ? Another "BL or OU issue ?"

Porygon-Z : - Read Above

Umbreon : - Read Above

Aerodactyl : - Well this is UU actually, although its a really common lead in standard. 10th on standard ladder and 7th on suspect ladder.

Articuno : - UU.

Crobat : - Based on lead usage this is OU, 12th and 10th on standard and suspect ladders respectively.

Gallade : - 28 + 38 on lead usage on standard and suspect respectively. So OU imo.

Miltank : - This is UU, however i understand it causes some issues.

Venusaur : - Read above.

Weezing : - UU ?

Shedinja : - UU.





Meh, that's' most of the ones that i have queries with and i think need discussing on their tier placement. Although im sure i missed some, feel free to add more "under scrutiny" pokemon or something you feel is misplaced. This needs updating anyways and i want people opinions. (No Garchomp discussions kthnxbai =))

 

[sims796]

Vileplume = OU

I feel it far too broken for UU play, but we can get to that later.

I used to freak when they put Leafeon in UU, but then I realized --did they put it there because it was weak, or did they put it there because the UU envoirment would benifit more?

I bring this up because many pokes seemed to get dropped down to UU, yet it doesn't affect their abilities in OU. Weezing is another example.

 

[Dark Azelf]

Vileplume = OU

I feel it far too broken for UU play, but we can get to that later.

I used to freak when they put Leafeon in UU, but then I realized --did they put it there because it was weak, or did they put it there because the UU envoirment would benifit more?

I bring this up because many pokes seemed to get dropped down to UU, yet it doesn't affect their abilities in OU. Weezing is another example.

Whoops, i knew id missed something, k ill add them to the "scrutiny" list lol. Thanks.

 

[sims796]

Well, I was saying it to make a point, not to add to the list, but the end beats the mean.

I can't help but notice...you forgot to add the Plume.

 

[Aquilae]

BL / OU is based on usage.

DDMence might be dominant for a while, only if people don't run defensive pokemon to deal with it. Even with Outrage it cannot do much gamebreaking, DD is only a +1 boost to Attack making it not really a significant threat.

CBMence however I feel is a great upgrade, CB Outrage 2HKOs defensive juggernauts like Cresselia and Suicune (more base Attack than Garchomp), and with Intimidate Salamence can come in on random fighters and weak physical attackers.

 

[Archer]

Abomasnow : - OU or BL ?

Deoxys (Speed) : - Don't know. It's still in Limbo for me, but I don't have a major issue with either set. Probably better off in Ubers.

Donphan : - Still BL. It is exposed to Toxic Spikes and Spikes.

Dusknoir : - BL. Good if it works, but not super-sturdy.

Electivire : - OU, actually. With the offensive era of the Metagame, it can sweep more easily.

Porygon-Z : - OU, it still has beastly SAtk and can crush anything slower that isn't a Special Wall.

Umbreon : - BL or even UU. It lost a lot and can't do much.

Aerodactyl : - BL Too strong for UU

Articuno : - Don't know...

Crobat : - It should be OU, isn't it?

Gallade : - OU

Miltank : - Don't know, but I'd say UU

Venusaur : - UU

Weezing : - UU

Shedinja : - UU.





Meh, that's' most of the ones that i have queries with and i think need discussing on their tier placement. Although im sure i missed some, feel free to add more "under scrutiny" pokemon or something you feel is misplaced. This needs updating anyways and i want people opinions. (No Garchomp discussions kthnxbai =))

Answers in bold. Now, I think that Garchomp is not*shotted*

Jumpluff?

 

[Glitter Stain]

I don't understand why Umbreon's being question... not even the fighting types of UU can successfully counter it. It's like Shuckle with better typing, movepool, and HP. The premiere fighters of UU, Hitmonlee and Primeape, are Toxified, annoyed and stalled until they die. Bug types don't fare well at all against Umbreon with their usually low HP and Attack stats. Miltank is just about the only thing in UU that causes it serious problems. Lee and Ape can be considered counters, but they can't safely take down Umbreon without the risk of fainting or crippling.