Pope Francis Takes Aim At Ideologically Obsessed Christians

[LoudSilence]

Going to play Devil's Advocate here and say that I don't know if it's fair to fault the Pope for his statement: like it or not, Christianity has a pretty clear stance on homosexuality, and I suppose it would be difficult to reconcile devout belief with a societal paradigm shift.

I know people consider this viewpoint "backwards" and all...but really, if you do believe it's God's Word and the truth, who are we to change it? No one should have the right to persecute gays (or anyone), but you can't make up a stamp of approval where it doesn't exist. I think it's unfair to expect the Church to "revise" its belief to accept if not outright endorse gays because that's just the thing to do now.

(Again, not a Christian. Just trying to work out the logic here)

 

[PknTrainerKevo]

I don't understand why people base their beliefs off of a 2000 year old book that's been rewritten multiple times. No one in America is a real Christian because if they were, they would own slaves and be for abortion and kill children. If they want to believe a fictitious book, that's their choice and Right, but it's annoying when people claim to be "real Christians." People have the Right to free speech and to exercise their views on religion and such as long as they don't infringe on another's Rights by harming them or their property. It's nice to see this Pope guy actually speaking out against the hardcore religious people, but people have the Right to believe what they wish.

 

[BadPokemon]

I don't understand why people base their beliefs off of a 2000 year old book that's been rewritten multiple times. No one in America is a real Christian because if they were, they would own slaves and be for abortion and kill children. If they want to believe a fictitious book, that's their choice and Right, but it's annoying when people claim to be "real Christians." People have the Right to free speech and to exercise their views on religion and such as long as they don't infringe on another's Rights by harming them or their property. It's nice to see this Pope guy actually speaking out against the hardcore religious people, but people have the Right to believe what they wish.

Most Christians are against abortion. Why would we kill children? We also don't hate gay people. We are simply against gay marriage. I also propose another question: why would the bible be written by the disciples if they didn't think it was true? If you think every Christian in America aren't real? What is a real Christian then? Some people fake it for selfish reasons, but they aren't true Christians.

 

[PknTrainerKevo]

Why would God send Moses to slaughter men, women and children? They spared the virgins and raped them. What about slavery? I have a hard time believing a book that was written numerous times by humans and the fact that King James had sex with his mom. There are many religions that say the same thing as the Christian Bible, but with different fictional characters. I'm not against one who believes in this stuff as I once did, but honestly if there was a God, wouldn't he have shown up and said "hey, this is what it is, here's the truth," but nothing of the like has happened.

 

[Kanzler]

You can do a lot more to respect people who you don't agree with. Actually, that's kind of the theme of this discussion thread. I don't want to read unreasoned callousness towards other's religions again - and this is coming from an atheist.

 

[PknTrainerKevo]

I don't wish to cause controversy. This stuff is really in the Bible. Again, I have nothing against one for believing a religion. The issue is when people don't understand the details involved and how its used to create wars. People should be able to worship peacefully (I saw a pic of Christians and Muslims protecting each other during their respective prayers/Mass and that's cool, though its a messed up world to have it come down to that), but also understand their religion 100%. Yes, the Bible speaks out against gays, but they shouldn't be hung as some extremists believe. I just wish people would treat each other with respect.

 

[BadPokemon]

I don't wish to cause controversy. This stuff is really in the Bible. Again, I have nothing against one for believing a religion. The issue is when people don't understand the details involved and how its used to create wars. People should be able to worship peacefully (I saw a pic of Christians and Muslims protecting each other during their respective prayers/Mass and that's cool, though its a messed up world to have it come down to that), but also understand their religion 100%. Yes, the Bible speaks out against gays, but they shouldn't be hung as some extremists believe. I just wish people would treat each other with respect.

Sorry about that! I didn't want to start an argument, either. I was just trying to prove my point. Most true Christians don't hate other people because of their religion. In fact, we can be friends. Do you understand? Again: I'm don't want to start an argument.

 

[Dakotah]

It should also be pointed out that a significant portion of Christians, including Catholics, believe that people of the same sex should be able to marry. For them, there is a separation from what they personally believe and what society should allow. While their faith may frown upon gay relationships, they do not believe that their beliefs should be forced on others through laws. There are also quite a few Christian denominations who not only welcome their gay and lesbian brothers and sisters but also celebrate their relationships as well. My own mother is a testament to this, for she too is a devout Christian, goes to church, sings in the choir and also is very proud of her gay oldest son, and not only acknowledges my boyfriend but accepts him as part of the family.

 

[LoudSilence]

It should also be pointed out that a significant portion of Christians, including Catholics, believe that people of the same sex should be able to marry. For them, there is a separation from what they personally believe and what society should allow. While their faith may frown upon gay relationships, they do not believe that their beliefs should be forced on others through laws.

And this, I think, is the interesting point...if belief really is something only for your home and not for the public, what does it matter what the Pope says? It's not like any of it will have any bearing on society because hey, what you believe and live by is between you and God and no one can say otherwise.

Another note: if someone believes God forbade a certain act that society has deemed okay, is it okay to be proud of/endorse the latter simply because society wants it that way? I'm glad your mother is accepting, but would she have been as accepting if we lived in in the 1950s? Not picking on her by the way, just pointing out this link between popular opinion and religious beliefs and how they fluctuate together. It's an interesting paradigm, to say the least.

 

[Dakotah]

And this, I think, is the interesting point...if belief really is something only for your home and not for the public, what does it matter what the Pope says? It's not like any of it will have any bearing on society because hey, what you believe and live by is between you and God and no one can say otherwise.

Another note: if someone believes God forbade a certain act that society has deemed okay, is it okay to be proud of/endorse the latter simply because society wants it that way? I'm glad your mother is accepting, but would she have been as accepting if we lived in in the 1950s? Not picking on her by the way, just pointing out this link between popular opinion and religious beliefs and how they fluctuate together. It's an interesting paradigm, to say the least.

I couldn't say if my mother would have been as accepting in the 1950s, since during that time she herself was just a child. I would guess, however, that had she been an adult then that the answer would probably be no. But that would be understandable given the lack of acceptance in society towards anyone who was not strictly heterosexual. It wasn't until the late 1960s (1969 to be exact) that homosexuality was removed from the Criminal Code of Canada (just a little over three decades before the same was true in the United States, which made homosexuality legal in 2003 in the Lawrence v. Texas case).

You have to understand that my biological mother (the one I am referring to) gave me up for adoption when I was just a year old. We hadn't seen each other until just recently (when I was 37). So she didn't know a thing about me until that time when we first met. She met me and my boyfriend at the same time, but I had told her prior to our meeting that I was gay. The one question she asked me was: when did you decide to be gay? My response to her: when did you decide to be straight? And that was pretty much it as far as her questioning. From that moment on she was perfectly at ease with us. Of course, the boyfriend and I didn't flaunt our sexuality in front of my parents. We talked, had dinner, talked some more and parted ways. And over the years we've continued to remain in contact, visiting each other (we live quite the distance from each other so it's not easy to do) sometimes.

Now, my adoptive parents were another story. Since I lived with them my whole life they knew me pretty well. When I came out to them it was: "about time you did." They knew all along. No shock, no questions. Just instant acceptance. My adoptive parents, unlike my biological parents, are not religious. They're atheists like myself.

 

[LoudSilence]

Well I wasn't actually trying to make it about your mother :P Just making a point.

 

[zakisrage]

Considering the amount of people on the Internet (including PC) who think that all Christians are fundamentalists, I'm glad that we have the pope on the side of normal people.

 

[acatfrommars]

In this instance, it seems that the Pope is in the middle. He's against strict fundamentalism but still wants to act in accordance to the word of God. He wants to welcome everyone no matter of their faith, belief, social standing, economic standing, race, etc. I don't see anything wrong with this. As long as he is not constantly trying to push his religion on someone or shove his ideology down someone else's throat then if he is trying to accept everyone then that is fine. You can't change everyone no matter how hard you try. When he tries to change the economy single handedly and calls the economy "savage capitalism" then that is taking things a step too far.

I don't particularly like the Pope, but I do like the things that he stands up against. He pushes away strict fundamentalist religion and I'm glad for that.